1. Hey Guest! If you're more than just a WildStar fan and want to keep up on the latest MMO news, reviews and opinion pieces then I'd like to suggest you visit our sister site MMO Central

Dungeon Accessibility and Community Strength

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by SituationSoap, Apr 28, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. SituationSoap

    SituationSoap Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    Likes Received:
    88
    Trophy Points:
    28
    I've seen a couple people to this point talking about how LFG Queues and easy dungeons "ruined" communities within MMOs of the past, and the more I think about this, the more I think it's a misguided notion. In fact, I think that the opposite is actually quite true: easier dungeons lead to a larger and more vibrant community. Here's why.

    1. Dungeons Encourage People to Play Together. In today's MMO world, questing is the primary means of traversing the world below a game's level cap, and questing tends to be nearly exclusively a solo activity. This is a good thing; it means that people who don't have multiple consecutive hours to contribute to a game at any given point can still log in and grow their character. Dungeon accessibility creates opportunities for players to play with one another. When dungeons grow more difficult fewer players tend to run them, providing fewer opportunities for players to be introduced to one another. A world with no group content is one inhabited by players playing alongside one another, not with one another; that group content can be provided in other formats like group quests or world bosses, but instanced small group content has proven to be the most effective way to keep players playing together and eliminate the problems that can come with open world group content, like spawn camping or player griefing.

    2. Dungeon Queues Provide Discoverability. A player leveling through their 30's in Vanilla World of Warcraft may never have heard of Scarlet Monastery -- perhaps the best five man content in the game -- if they were just a little unlucky. By encouraging groups to run random dungeons at a given level range, it makes sure that all of the created five man content is consumed by large chunks of the player base, instead of relying on pure luck and hoping that players discover your content.

    3. Dungeons are not end-game content. Dungeons in fact can be elder game content; it's very possible for there to be many varied dungeons that are designed to be run by players at the level cap. However, most MMOs (and Wildstar in particular) do not treat small group PVE content as a targeted "end game" activity -- that kind of description is usually reserved for things like Raiding, PVP or the yet to be unveiled solo path. Small group PVE is necessarily a stepping stone -- and it's a good one -- to larger things. Small group content provide the ability for players who spent most or all of their time soloing to the level cap to adjust to playing in a group setting. Small group content provides somewhere for players to learn about tanking and healing and aggro management, all skills that are much more difficult to teach to someone playing on their own.

    4. Raid Groups will need a steady stream of players to fill out their raids. I've touched on this prior, but I truly believe that the problems with more insulated communities that many posters attribute to the LFG queue system introduced in WotLK were actually present earlier during that expansion. I believe that the true culprit of the community stagnation present during WotLK was due to the switch to viable 10 man raid sizes; because guilds with only twelve or so players could suddenly run their own raid groups, WotLK created a scenario where there was a very limited need to replace raider turnover -- in a group of ten, players don't leave very often, so there's no need for new raiders. Wildstar isn't going to have this problem. In groups of 40, players leave all the time, meaning that there will be a constant need for fresh blood to be infused into raiding guilds. Those who don't remember the days of 40 man raids may not recall that when you're running a 40 man raid, the individual gear level of a particular player isn't that important. When you've got two healers, you need to make sure that they're well enough equipped to handle the content you're about to tackle. When you're adding your ninth healer to the raid, their gear level isn't the kind of thing that's going to come under as much scrutiny. What does that mean?

    It means that 40 man raid groups will be inviting new players to their raids all the time. In many instances, some of these players are going to hit the level cap a few hours before a raid and have a piece or even a couple pieces of gear that outclass anything available in a five man group by the time the raid is finished (this depends on a number of factors, but experienced 40 man raiders can tell you just how common it is). If dungeons are made too difficult, it's likely that players will simply start skipping them; if it's less work to sit on the bench of a raid guild until you get a spot on farm night and hope for a couple epic drops, many players are going to do that. As someone who's led raid guilds in the past, I'd much rather have small group content capable of providing most of the necessary gear to bring a new player near to the median of our raid group outside of raid time. Hard dungeon content diminishes the count of nearly-ready raid candidates available to raid leaders when they're trying to replace turnover -- and unfortunately, because the two environments are so much different, it's essentially impossible to expect a player to learn to raid in a small group environment.


    In the end, accessible group content is better for anyone who wishes to actually participate in group content on the regular. Carbine should be in the business of regularly working to knock down barriers to entry to whatever they view as the "most important" parts of the game. Carbine doesn't want to make the dungeons too easy -- a challenge is still important in bringing players back to the game, but the important part is to understand which parts are challenge and which parts are simply filler. Intelligently designing the system to make sure that the challenge is at an appropriate level, removing the filler and encouraging social mobility within a particular community are the keys both to a healthy community and to enjoyable group content.
  2. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Likes Received:
    565
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ok, going to simply counterpoint by numbers to save thread space.
    Dungeons at level cap should simply be less of a logistical nightmare than raiding, but require equivalent communication and skill as would be expected in a beginning raider. At the moment most games bypass this, and make it simply content for people to see and figure out the way to top the dps on, but not intelligently strategize through it. Hard content makes players communicate and use teamwork or fail, while easy content makes players get their loot pinata.

    Check scenarios for WoW, they were designed to be bite sized content for players, and everyone usually ran them once (if that) to see the story involved in them. You never had to speak to anyone in them, because for the most part they were able to be solo cleared by a mediocrely geared skilled player. It requires absolutely no teamwork. The reason for this is because with queue systems Blizzard saw players being AFK, so instead of forcing players to be there to get content down, they reduced the frustration of players having to coach and teach eachother by making the content clearable by fewer players. What this spawned is no talking during a dungeon, or a single spammed macro from the tank beforehand to keep up and wait for the pull.

    Short answer, dungeons should not just have a bunch of warm bodies, they should encourage communication as well as teamwork.

    Don't know if that's true, but assuming it is, that's due to lack of communication in the community, or there being an easier method to level through 30's without doing the content. Dungeons should not be seen as necessary content for levelling. They should be available during levelling, but not needed. I mostly agree with this statement that most people don't know where things are in the world and a lot don't care.

    If you can't get to it until you hit level cap it is by definition end-game content. Wildstar has stated they want to change the dungeons periodically to keep them fresh for replayability, meaning they probably do consider it a somewhat significant portion of end game content. Again difficult dungeons should lead to raiding, but how many raiders have you actually allowed into your group that have "just finished the heroic dungeons so they must now be ready for raiding"? Also, how many guilds accept applications in WoW from players that have done 8 clears of LFR versions of the raid but no normal clears? There's a reason for this, easy dungeons make it so that there isn't necessarily any skill. Raid leaders would much rather see potential in a player that's undergeared, than potential in a player that's been carried.

    For this reason, normal dungeons should be easier to help gear up players, and heroics should be very difficult and force communication among the players. If they're ready for raiding and just gearing an alt, it shouldn't cause any problems, on the other hand the new players that finally get geared are actually ready for raiding.

    Raid groups need a steady stream of *GOOD* players to fill out their raids.

    Or at least that's what I hope you meant to say. No one wants bad players. No one. Will players that can learn but have bad attitudes be in a raid group? Of course. If they continuously don't pull their weight and don't understand their class, the fights, or catch on quickly they will be dropped from the raid. Period.

    40 man raids haven't been seen since vanilla WoW, therefore it's impossible to speculate on how these raids will retain members and such. The first (and only) time we've seen 40-man raiding was when raiding was created. There's many more variables that go into turnover rate than just being more people. Yes the likelihood of turnover increases in a 40-man raid, but the chances of someone simply saying "I'm done with you guys and I'm just gonna make my own raid" also significantly decreases. I've seen multiple 10 man teams fall apart because of someone taking a couple people with them because they weren't happy with the leadership, because "how hard can it be to find 7 or 8 people who are competent enough and want to raid with me?" The answer of course is, "very." This is simply because there's a lot of other people currently trying to do the same thing.

    That said. There are always more DPS players in a game than support players. This is fact. This is why dps players always have a longer queue time than healers or tanks, and why it's not worth making a PUG group with 5 or 6 dps, no tanks and no healers. 40 man raiding allows a much better ratio of dps:support. 10 man having a 5:5 (1:1 reduced) (assuming one healer is a hybrid and 2 heals otherwise), 25 man having 8:17 (~1:2 reduced)(assuming 2 tanks and 6 heals), and 40 man having 12:28(3:7 reduced) (assuming 2 tanks and 10 healers). These are actual tangible numbers which will show for actually an easier recruition and distribution of players in a (relatively) large populous. Also, larger raids mean that smaller groups are more likely to be able to form the majority of a raid and PUG the last few. Also less raid groups will exist, so picking up players becomes easier because they're more likely to commit to a decision. This means players will not decline a raid invite simply because they know a better option will probably post 2 seconds later.

    I submit that raising the bar for dungeons actually gets more players clearing the raid content than less. For instance I believe the numbers for the successful attempts on the first raid boss of Mists of Panderia were roughly half of the total number of attempts for months into the expansion, and I believe there are probably a good portion of those left that simply will never down it. This happened even though they had downed it in LFR and gotten fully geared from the LFR system. Gear simply does not make the player, and you will never convince me of that. Another instance was a guild that I ran some raids with that had someone who was carried through everything, and was one of the best geared people on the team. He pulled roughly 2/3 of the dps CONSISTENTLY of the lowest dpser on the team. He would have a 50% chance to beat the tank in DPS.
    Flawz, Grohmm, Glacius and 1 other person like this.
  3. SituationSoap

    SituationSoap Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    Likes Received:
    88
    Trophy Points:
    28
    BlindSear, that post explained a significant amount about your opinions, and revealed a lot of things that I don't think you were aware you didn't know. For starters: there's plenty of evidence to allow us to draw conclusions about what larger raid sizes will do to turnover rates. I know this because I also know that World of Warcraft did not invent 40 man raid sizes, and because I know that, in fact, the world's most popular MMO at the time (Everquest) happily hummed along with 80 person raids for some time prior to 2004.

    There is significantly more data available regarding raid sizes and their effect on communities than you appear to be aware of. It might be a good time for you to do some background research.
    Calsic, Sylvan and Soylentgreen like this.
  4. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Likes Received:
    565
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I'll look into it, but I still think a 40 man raid size will have acceptable retention. I'll accept your answer until I've been able to properly research it and get back to you. Also, anywhere in mind I could start looking up these statistics? Also, how about the fact that players leave the mid and lower "level" guilds to form their own? That does happen, and I feel like it would happen less with a 40-man environment.

    Also, high turnover means more chances for others to raid. It allows players to be recruited more easily and transitioning out of the guild less dramatic. With your information about guilds having high turnover doesn't really discredit what I've said. I still think guilds are looking for good players and not just warm bodies, but less geared skilled players are more likely to stick to the raid group.

    While writing this I realized that there will be high turnover for 40-man raids, because guilds will recruit warm bodies to get into the raid. This doesn't mean they're looking to keep these warm bodies, it means they'll give them a chance to not inconvenience 39 people. This allows the average achievement level of beginner raiders to be lower.

    This in turn is a good thing, as raiders will often lie to get into a group on their achievements, and then not deliver, only to block out the chance of the realistic honest player. So, yes I'd agree that 40-man would have a higher turnover, but that doesn't mean that raid leaders want to keep any old body that meets the ilvl requirements to step through the portal. I know there's other reasons raids lose people, but this is one of the beneficial ways it happens. It also explains a post of you from earlier about constantly refining a raid group.
  5. Elthic

    Elthic Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Likes Received:
    124
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Easy content especially in a new mmos life, where players are flying through content like a frenzy can really hurt a game. Just look at all the mmos released lately who have encouraged easy mode dungeons, and look at how they failed.

    When people complete the majority of the content, and then feel like there is nothing left to do, they will stop playing. With a dungeon finder it will be easy to get groups for these, and if the content is easy they will complete this stuff even faster. It will cause a lot of players to become uninterested in the game, especially if they aren't a raider, or a pvper.

    While, Carbine has stated that raids will be really hard, you are going to need some sort of content that players can do that will prepare them for this. Dungeons at max level should be a stepping stone for a raid. While they shouldn't be as hard as a raid, they should require you to move out of telegraphs, and have some sort basic strategy to complete the boss. You can't just have the game be easy mode for everything, but raids, otherwise guilds won't be able to recruit new raiders, because they just won't be at the skill level to do that stuff.

    I am all for making dungeons, while leveling not that difficult, because players are going to be learning the game, and their class. So learning class dynamics, and how tanks, healers, and dps coordinate with each other should be the goal of dungeons while leveling.
    Joukehainen, Mudfin, Vunak and 2 others like this.
  6. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Likes Received:
    565
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I agree with all that.
  7. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2013
    Likes Received:
    755
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Also agree with that.

    Dungeons were not required to get to level cap in Vanilla wow. They were however made very attractive because of the questline xp and the rewards associated with them. So doing a dungeon would net you lots of xp, a nice quest reward or 2, and a chance at drop items off the bosses.
    Most of the time, you didn't get all of the quests done in the first run, so you at least ran it 2 or 3 times, because it was better overall than not running it at all.
    The "choice" came into play with the actual loot drops in the dungeons themselves....some people "chose" to go after that certain drop on a dungeon boss by running it over and over, and some people "chose" to just move on questing and such.

    Nothing in that scenario above required the devs to fix, adjust, or make things more convenient for people. The dungeons and rewards were there, they required communication and coordination from the 1st one ( deadmines ) to the last ones ( Strat/UBRS ). You could either do them or not, your choice.
  8. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Likes Received:
    565
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I'd agree that the overall argument of LFD vs non-LFD is not worth discussing, but in this case SituationSoap has a very specific argument, which is that easier dungeons actually make stronger communities.
  9. SituationSoap

    SituationSoap Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    Likes Received:
    88
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Right, exactly. In Vanilla WoW, this was made far worse due to what were colloquially called "Feeder Guilds". It was very common to see a player hit the level cap, get some basic gear, then hop up the tiers as they moved from guild to guild and improved their gear. This happened because the guilds weren't progressing, and the guilds weren't progressing because people kept leaving. It was a vicious cycle. This is what badge gear helped to mitigate. Because it meant that a player could hit the level cap and get sufficient gear to contribute in a raid of the current tier pretty quickly, there was no need to guild hop your way up the ladder. Instead, it allowed players to raid with who they wanted, when they wanted.

    This is why there's benefit in viewing small group content as a stepping stone to end game content, and not as end game content in itself. In doing that, you necessarily eliminate the idea that small group content should always be difficult. That idea is responsible for severely restricting the ability of many players to play the game they want with the people they want. I can't argue that we should bring it back.

    I'm all for difficult dungeons during level up and at the level cap. Where I differ is the idea that those dungeons should always be difficult simply for the sake of difficulty, and that convenience methods to make forming groups and getting to those dungeons are somehow responsible for the downfall of communities that so many decry.
    unindel, Calsic, Furor and 1 other person like this.
  10. Ellianar

    Ellianar Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Likes Received:
    128
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    France
    Dungeon should be a adventure and not a rush toward loot/token/emblem therefore they shouldnt be easy, atleast for the elder game that is to say heroic dungeon, i m comfortable with levelling dungeon being easy, not in the mechanics, when you are in the upper end of the level range.
    Mudfin likes this.
  11. Eliat_kuni

    Eliat_kuni Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Likes Received:
    43
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Bathurst, New Brunswick
    Pretty general statement, could you expand a little bit?

    I've played pretty much all AAA MMORPG of the last decade and I would not have put easy dungeon in the top 10 reasons why they did not keep their original based of starting player.

    Star Trek Online
    TERA
    RIFT
    WarHammer online
    Final Fantasy XIV
    Age of Conan
    Star Wars: The Old Republic
    EQ2

    You mean that the major reasons for those MMORPG failling is because of easy dungeon. Really? Maybe you have other exemple?
  12. kiri

    kiri Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2013
    Likes Received:
    123
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Indeed! I actually posted this in the wrong thread (meant for LFG discussion). Sorry OP not trying to hijack you.
  13. TeoH

    TeoH Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2013
    Likes Received:
    295
    Trophy Points:
    63
    It means your content is extremely casual and poses very little challenge, allowing you to be flexible with your group. Making it the kind of content where the main draw is simply the spectacle of having a big room full of people whacking something, rather than any kind of technical challenge.

    I was completely onboard with your post untill the point where you suggested that large raid sizes would make it easier for people to form raid groups, which you should have realised was incredibly contrived when you had to open the point with 'after BC, suddenly guilds could form their own raid groups'. The only parts of vanilla raiding that were accessible were the parts where initial encounters were the most trivial and basic PvE encounters that Blizzard have ever designed, most of which literally boiled down to tank and spank with perhaps 1 mechanic which only a small portion of the players had to learn. Despite this low level of technical challenge, the portion of WoW players who experienced current-tier raiding content at any stage of Vanilla was miniscule.

    The reason very large group content is often considered to be accessible, is because traditionally it is almost always tuned to be very, very casual. Large scale encounters in most games which involve a big horde of players running up and whacking a giant boss are usually designed to be cleared by doing exactly that - just running up and whacking it. Making this content accessible for players of all skill and gear levels is less about the size of the raid, and more about the plain difficulty of the encounter itself. Blizzard have stats on the percentage of players who have downed even 1 boss in Naxx40, it's less than 1%. When the content is tuned to be difficult with 9 healers in full epic raiding gear, then yes the 9th guy matters.

    Accessibility is great, and I agree with the general sentiment that MMOs should make it simple for players to get onto at least the first step of the content ladder, it's a social game and it does not make business sense to cut big portions of subscribers out of your social content. To enable those players you need casual tier content that's easy for them to access, where gear and skill deficiencies aren't a big deal, currently Blizzard's LFR system does a much better job of this than Molten Core ever did.

    Cont as i want to talk about something else...
  14. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Likes Received:
    565
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It could be that the gear from the heroic raids be unnecessary for raiding (20-man raiding) and that a skilled player can be fine in a 20-man raid with normal dungeon gear, but some pieces from the 20-man raid plus full normal dungeon gear is necessary to do 40-man raiding. Also, that full heroic dungeon sets would be enough to go straight into 40-man raiding. As the two tiers of raiding are completely different content, this would make sense, and allow players to climb a path of normal dungeons to an easier raid to the hard raid, or really hard dungeons with smaller groups to a hard raid environment.

    They should be difficult in a way that forces communication and strategy, not in a way that you can simply overpower the content eventually if you have a couple friends who are overgeared so you can /follow your way to a set of gear for raiding. If you're already good with communication and teamwork in your group, it'll be relatively easy, if not, it won't. I think the difficulty while leveling should be hard enough to discourage leveling only through dungeons for the majority of new players, but easier than the end game dungeons because players are still learning.

    This is not a discussion for or against queuing systems, that simply becomes a gameplay style that there are enough players (maybe 10%) that are adamantly against queuing systems, but enough that it is a consideration which shouldn't be overlooked for some servers. I will always agree to disagree on that subject. I think the system works with certain audiences and detracts from another, and that these communities should be separated in the game.
  15. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Likes Received:
    565
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That one's gotten some interesting thoughts...
  16. TeoH

    TeoH Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2013
    Likes Received:
    295
    Trophy Points:
    63
    So, continuing then... The spectacle of having a room full of players whacking a boss doesn't remain a spectacle for very long. Groups that are comfortable with the raiding mechanics and organised enough to handle themselves will seek out a greater challenge, and you need that tiered content to provide that. This is where i take issue with the 40 man raid format.

    I'm part of the 1%, i raided Naxx in vanilla and involved myself with some of the leadership duties for a large guild. Initially we entered molten core as part of an alliance of 3 guilds who had to clump together to meet the 40 man requirement, and later in the expansion we ballooned to the point where we had 60 or so active players and were running progressively harder raiding content by ourselves. I'll be completely frank - 'Serious' 40 man raiding is a logistical cluster<REDACTED> that I would not wish upon Bobby Kotick.

    Taking that many players in-guild to run the harder dungeons under 1 banner was a requirement as we moved up to harder content. The scrappy alliance was acceptable for Molten Core as frankly half of your raid could afk Molten Core and you'd still clear the thing. As the challenge ramped up, it was necessary for us to take tighter control of the group and organise everything about the raid. This involved the classic DKP tables, but also elaborate rotation lists where we switch around the 60 or so active players that we have to ensure we were as fair as possible when it came to who got into each raid.

    Of course that's the tip of the iceberg, create a rotation and then you have a constant admin task of dealing with things like people missing some weeks, or some players wanting to come on such and such a day because we always clear X on Thursdays which drops the tophat they're still waiting for. We needed penalty systems for people who missed raids they were expected to show up to and incentives for signing up to raiding days in advance so that we could arrange a player list that gave us the best shot at clearing progression content.

    Basically, it <REDACTED>ing sucked, on a good day i couldn't remember the names of half the people we were running an instance with despite having to closely micromanage each individual player in order to stand a chance at the challenging content that we wanted to clear.

    The move to 25 and 10 man raids was a fantastic change for us, as it allowed us to run content with the smaller core community which made up the guild, and that move just instantly killed off most of the social and logistical problems that come with running a gigantic group of 60 people who you barely know. This let us focus on the more complicated tactics and teamplay that were required for the increasingly difficult encounters. We were a group that wanted to be challenged and had the players to take on the hardest tiers of content, and we weren't really free to do that untill raid sizes were reduced to manageble levels. For us the change in raid size changed raiding from an excersise in employee management into a PvE group combat challenge, and i wouldn't want to go back.

    What i'm getting at is, the game needs increasingly challenging tiers of content to satisfy the people who seek those challenges out, but balancing 40 man raids to be a genuine challenge for an organised group creates a horrific managerial mess that isn't enjoyable to operate. I believe that 40 man raids would be perfectly fine if they were left at the level of difficulty you are referring to in your posts - where you can grab the 39th guy randomly out of general chat, without caring much for his gear, run into the instance and start whacking things.

    I think it would be very interesting if the devs decided to offer the hard-tuned challenging content at the 20 man instead of the 40 man level, and left the 40 man raids for the kind of collaborative horde efforts that they are better suited for. How you allocate loot in that scenario is probably a dividing point, but i'd applaud the move either way.
    Poet, Mudfin, Agon and 2 others like this.
  17. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Likes Received:
    565
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So, I think LFR was something that made people say "meh, beat the big boss, got all the gear he drops, now why should I group with you to just die a bunch trying to do it again?" It adds a layer of grind to the mid level guilds who need some gear to progress, because the LFR isn't the equivalent to the hardest dungeon. Instead it's easier and drops better loot. So, mid level guilds aren't forced to run the raid twice, but they are for the easiest gearing path. Since the raids are separate content, if the 20-mans are easier, it gives those mid level guilds something else to run, instead of the same content twice. Or if they're on the same lockout (or whatever Carbine implements) the dungeons should be made equally as hard (or close to at least) as the 20-man raids and drop the same loot. This means that 40-man raids will use 20-mans to gear up a lot of players for a new raid group (if the guild has enough to run 2 raid groups). Or, if a small group of players is able to down all the dungeons a 40-man raid can pick up them from turnover, instead of 20 people trying to form a separate raid group.

    Having casual content separately keeps players in the game, and as long as they don't get geared too quickly they'll have that carrot on the stick to keep them playing, but they won't want to form the next higher level of gameplay. Maybe this is a good thing? It depends if you want players motivated to fuel the next step up of content seekers, or more money, because casual content does de-motivate people.
  18. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Likes Received:
    565
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I can't speak for logistical problems of 40-man, as I was playing SWG when WoW released, picked up wow for a couple months, became disinterested then picked it up again in Wrath. But Carbine has said they're going to be putting hard modes into raiding, so that's the next tier of challenge for your 40-man raid that will narrow your pool of players further. Also, hopefully with the telegraph system players will somewhat manage themselves, so micromanagement isn't necessary. It's hard to see how the logistics of 40-man will work out, as it depends on how Carbine handles a whole lot of variables. But, the fewer raids with larger sizes model should allow the chance for players to become raiders, as turnover will be higher, but the same core group will still be intact. This could work out well or not, depending on how it's managed.
  19. Furor

    Furor Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2013
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    13
    I agree with the above statement.

    People that are blaming LFG, Dungeon Finder, Cross-Realm, etc, for community problems and subsequent downfalls of MMOs are barking up the wrong tree. I mean, you do realize WoW didn't develop these things out of thin air, right? That they developed them specifically as a way to retain subs, gain new subs and extend the relevance of previous content? Give me one game where grouping convenience elements aren't present that sports the same level of sheer content use, reuse and saturation that WoW has (that is, the high percentage of players experiencing/consuming content that's almost a decade old), and I'll give you everything I own. That game simply does not exist.

    A mature MMO that doesn't have things like Dungeon Finder is a lonely experience for new players (something I've witnessed many times), specifically because they don't have an enhanced grouping utility of any kind to facilitate what was a more vibrant experience at release (and in some games even at release the grouping is terrible - take SWTOR for example). Even WoW went through this phase in Burning Crusade and WotLK before the implementation of Dungeon Finder. Leveling up was absolutely abysmal if you didn't already have friends and people to play alongside with. And let's face it, not every new player, perhaps not even a majority, will have established relationships in a new game. That's just a fact of life - so why punish them for it by making it absurdly hard for them to enjoy the game they're paying for?

    The idea that we must remove things like Dungeon Finder or varying difficulty levels (LFR, Normal, Heroic for example) to build a stronger community just isn't an argument that makes any sense. You're arguing to reduce options for players, to make the experience worse for new players later on, and in effect reducing the total number of people that will participate in your 'community' by essentially telling them to screw off. Not everyone enjoys the same difficulty level you do. Not everyone enjoys spamming General Chat for a group. Not everyone enjoys your idea of what a "community" entails. Let them choose. Forcefully manipulating players (by denial of convenience in this case) is a good way to make sure they quit.

    For instance, a F2P MMO I played recently required that you purchase bag space from a micro-T shop. The item system and number of necessary things acquired while playing pretty much assured that you NEEDED to purchase that extra space just to not have constant fits. The game literally gave you less than what was required to fully experience the content. That's blatant manipulation. And I quit. I wasn't going to pay a damn dime to a game like that.

    To me, the obvious answer is to give players more choices, more options, more variance and ultimately offer a wider array of things to do. On top of that, it shouldn't be like pulling teeth to get a group together for a low-level dungeon - stop railing against conveniences and innovation. For most normal dungeons, a dungeon finder utility should be just fine and result in plenty of successes. Should it be a guarantee of success? No. The real challenge should be in Heroic-level content, that is specifically designed to create the necessity for greater community and interpersonal relationships. Overall, what matters more is the implementation of these various systems. Simply ignoring them, and expecting your potential players to never want a Dungeon Finder or Summoning Stone is nonsense now.

    And for the record, I played WoW Vanilla at release. I raid led/MT'd 40-man raids into MC early on, and later into BWL (personally I dislike 40 man - it's too big, and there's too much potential for drama, but that's not what I'm discussing in this post). Did countless runs for UBRS attunements. I know what the game was like, and what the community was like. Some people look back with some extremely Rose-Tinted Glasses as if it was the best time ever and nothing could top it, and that every little convenience/change since then has been a complete disaster. That's simply not true. Now, I'm certainly not defending everything WoW's devs decided to do. For instance:

    Cross-Realm PvP/Instances for current content. This is a mistake, IMO. The system should prioritize your server first, and then only if a group cannot be formed from your server within a decent time-frame, should it search cross-server (which would be more prevalent for out-dated/matured content). I think this helps keep a sense of community, comradery, and rivalry within the server as well as facilitate newer players getting contact with players they can immediately associate with on their server if they're looking for that interaction. There was definitely a sense of loss of rivalry with the prevalence of cross-realm PvP compared to ye' olde Warsong Gulch/Warlord Grind days.

    However, I am wholly against the desire of a significant portion of so-called "hardcore/purist" gamers demanding that these things be entirely removed or never implemented. I think such calls, if heeded, represent the death-knell of any potential large success, and much to the chagrin of these same people, a community that eventually becomes decimated by mass exodus. There is an appropriate way to use these different systems to cultivate a strong community on multiple levels. Simply leaving them out would be a disastrous mistake. It's not a situation that lends itself to an easy answer, but it can be done properly if the will is there to do it.

    I'm by no means a "casual" player, either. I finished Cataclysm in a 25-man Heroic 12-hour/week guild as U.S. 58th, and ranked on nearly every single encounter on WoL. I hold the #1 Arms DPS spot on H-Ultraxion, for example. Simply put, I'm tired of people clamoring for convenient things to be removed as if that is the magical panacea to fix all community problems. I'm not playing to be forced into your little political nonsense. Let people choose where they want to focus their activities. Give them options, give them some freedom.

    It's like suggesting we stop using automobiles because it hurts small communities since they make travel to other communities easier. Sure, a horse and buggy might still work, but is it really the crux of the problem? Are we going to acquiesce to arguments that are essentially advocating a regression? Are we part of an e-Amish backlash against progression? I hope not.
    Poet, Xryus, unindel and 3 others like this.
  20. Elthic

    Elthic Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Likes Received:
    124
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Well the majority of the games you listed there didn't fail due to easy dungeons, but because they were just bad games, as in buggy messes or just incomplete. And in my opinion rift didn't fail, but was a pretty good game, I just couldn't get into their world, and it didn't hook me.

    So I'll use swtor as this example, and since swtor decided to have to pretty easy dungeons most players flew through this stuff, and this was compounded due to their easy raids as well. Swtor was a great game leveling up, but its end game failed,because it posed no challenge, and it also had some buggy messes as well.

    Lets also look at gw2, their pve really lacked in any challenge what so ever, and dungeons were a snooze fest. Though this was also because they lacked the trinity, and it really didn't feel like you were working with your group members. And with a lack of progression there was very little reason to play these once you got the tokens needed to get your gear.

    Obviously easy dungeons weren't the only reason these games failed, but if you complete everything fairly quickly why would you keep playing?
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page