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Dungeon Accessibility and Community Strength

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by SituationSoap, Apr 28, 2013.

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  1. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    So, this is due to having the largest playerbase. It's no secret that WoW is the largest MMORPG on the market. This is partially due to it's length of existence of the game. With this means that WoW gets the biggest publicity, causing the biggest hype, and media to focus on it, because the media gets more money for reporting on things people care about, not things they don't.

    Personally, EVE is a much stronger hardcore raiding community than WoW will ever have. It's simply a smaller game, and death can mean serious consequences, by having to start from square one. Size wise, smaller. Tool wise, it's largely a community base, and every player is in the competition, not just for the world first but a constant survival. Nuance, yup. Etc. Yup that too.

    But, the hardcore raiders that WoW began with, aren't necessarily still in the game. So, to state that it's the strongest hardcore raiding community as fact and not opinion is silly. And yes, you are still muddling together size for strength, and now adding in media hype.


    I'll let you argue this out with Jeremy Gaffney, as he wants to do one raiding difficulty, "hard." This is because there is other content in the game for the players that are less skilled. Limiting to 40 man raids and 20 man raids already ostracizes 90% of the player population due to not wanting the hassle and logistics of that many people. So, with that in mind you can assume that they're going to be willing forth to put forth the effort to make it through the content.

    WoW has a lot of players, yes, a good community, for the most part I'd argue no on this one. Try wiping once in a dungeon or a lfr raid, and see how many times you lose a player or two because they can't be bothered to teach their community. How many times have you been running content with other randoms and felt like you're just going to have to carry the group through the end to finish it?

    Also, no it takes much less time and effort to make the content which is balanced with a certain amount of ability in mind. Limiting players from getting through the content easily and quickly is a good thing. Giving players motivation to play is the only thing that matters in the end for the business line. If that means that players do not play one aspect of the game, fine. But that 1% of players that get the raiding done and say how amazing it is, and keep giving positive feedback will motivate a lot of the others. Exclusivity works as a business model, it makes people want it that much more, and they will have scrape and climb to the level of the Raiders to get in, instead of having the content dropped down for them so they get their fill and move on. Players do not want to have to run multiple difficulty levels, it's boring, time consuming, and not interesting gameplay.

    So, yes balancing for just hard content is much faster than having to re-balance for the players that give up easily but still want to be challenged. This means there's virtually no top end to the challenge, as long as it's possible. The hardcore skilled raiders will keep attempting until it's finished, as long as they know it's possible. And then they'll come back upon the next content.

    So, developers will not "screw over" 90% of the player base, because they're intelligent, and know what is and is not possible in the game.

    Disadvantages of multi-difficulty raiding:
    1. It creates a caste system for raiders. If you've never done heroic content you're not likely to be able to do heroic content. Either you have to convince your raid group to go for it, or happen to be "around" when someone is farming heroic content and needs a warm body.

    2. It creates player burnout. Players will attempt the harder raid for a bit, realize they've completed it on normal already (just for the gear mind you, so they can do hard mode) and go do something else.

    3. It creates liars. Due to reason 1. If you lie about your experience you'll be taken into the next level and could get carried.

    4. Get's players carried. It makes it so that raids can complete content if they have 7 or 8 skilled players, and 2-3 being carried. I've seen these types of teams down bosses, and it's not fun. But they do it because recruiting's impossible from the caste system. This is the lower-mid range of skill in players. The ones that are simply on normal in a lot of cases. Is it acceptable that unskilled players are getting carried through the content? I don't like the feeling, I doubt many people do.

    [edit]5. It produces a "bring the gear not the player" mentality. This is because you have to have the gear from the previous raiding to be even considered for the next level, and to be brought into a raid group, it's generally close to the same as that of a mediocrely geared to highly geared player. Again this is for the mid ranged raiding guilds. Single difficulties should be possible with dungeon gear, so if you have a full set of dungeon gear, then you should be let into a guild. They will prefer a player that's better geared, but won't turn one down because they only have the lower set of gear.[/edit]

    Again, who says larger is better? True, all players who play Wildstar should have something to do. False, all players who play Wildstar should have raiding to do.

    Why does the whole player base have to like raiding? Why do they have to do raiding? Carbine has stated that a big portion of the player base does their gameplay solo, why not let that player base stay solo at endgame and be happier, instead of being forced into the mold of raiding? It's effectively what LFR did for WoW except that you actually are doing something unique and not just the dumbed down version of something someone more skilled does. I don't think Wildstar will need different difficulties of raiding because of their plan for end game.

    If a hardcore raid group finishes on the normal mode, but can't finish it on the hard mode, they'll be more likely to give up or bring in raiders that have finished the content to help boost them. This is because all the raiders have (generally) seen the content, and if their raid group finishes up the dungeon without them, that they can still say their raid group did it. Basically, once you've beaten the boss once, the motivation to do it again significantly decreases.
  2. Orcbum

    Orcbum New Cupcake

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    It's naive to say "Carbine's already doing that."--uh, I'm pretty sure GW2, Tera, Aion, Darkfall UW, etc thought themselves to have buffed their game to a delightful shine.

    I'm aiming this at the Beta testers to give Carbine insight as to how they can make the game good and leaving people wanting more/coming back. I've participated in GW2's beta, and probably 95% of the community (I among them) believed in completely diverging from any World of Warcraft roots, while the remaining 5% were skeptical of GW2's staying power.

    And guess who was right all along.

    I want the beta testers to get a feel of where and what to look at, and having some misguided notions of straying from big brand MMORPGs would only blind them.
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  3. SituationSoap

    SituationSoap Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's incredibly difficult to take you seriously when you say something like this. EVE doesn't have a hardcore raiding community. EVE doesn't have high-end large group scripted PVE events like more traditional MMOs.

    I'm not trying to be a dick, but this is what Furor means when he says things about "arguing from ignorance". At a certain point, it becomes impossible to maintain the conversation due to the noise from people who aren't sufficiently experienced to know that they don't know a whole lot.
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  4. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Not in the traditional sense, but difficult instanced combat with large groups, yes. Not "true" instance, in that it still allows for other "raid groups" happen into the same place as you and compete for it, or fight you and the content at the same time. But that's my point, it's not like traditional MMO's but separately very successful. Albeit the entire playerbase is hardcore so the whole community feeds into hardcore (non-traditional) "raiding," or at least a large group of players which are organized for (initially) PvE combat.

    That's my point, don't copy WoW for two reasons, one, copy of WoW fails. If the difference is WoW or WoW in space for end game, there's no reason to switch over. If you want a game that copies WoW's approach to endgame... play WoW.

    I haven't played a lot of the other MMO's out there and the longest stent was in WoW. Yes, that's true. I also don't think WoW right now has the strongest hardcore raiding community of all time. I would say it has the largest hardcore raiding community of all time though.

    I will accept that I'm not the most knowledgeable on the subject. But, if you can convince everyone that WoW conclusively has the strongest raiding community of all time in Mists of Pandaria, not in previous forms of the game, then they'll stop arguing that it isn't. It's a subjective answer of course, and I don't think it can be proved.

    Basically if you want to discredit EVE as a source of raiding, then that's fine. I still the other arguments stand without it, copying WoW's endgame is only a good idea if you want to get the players who are playing WoW. Cabine is attempting to gain back the players who quit WoW or aren't playing WoW and are bored.
  5. Furor

    Furor Cupcake

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    • Please try to avoid flaming or personal attacks.
    If we followed your arguments, WoW should've died around when WotLK was released, Dungeon Finder got brought in, Multiple Dungeon/Raiding difficulties came in, etc. Hardcore players would no longer be plunging headlong into excessively difficult raiding tiers, MoP would've been cancelled, etc.

    But it didn't fail. Because your argument doesn't stand up to a single dose of logic or reason or observation. In terms of the general systems that WoW operates within its game, it's probably in the best spot it's ever been - especially from a raiding standpoint.

    If, as you claim, these systems are the problem - you'd have actual EVIDENCE to support that claim. But you don't. All you have is your personal opinion. Which, in this situation, isn't worth <REDACTED>.

    EVE doesn't even have raiding on the same level as PvE-centered fantasy MMOs. This is like comparing an Apple to a Beet. They aren't even both fruit.

    Moreover, this was particularly amusing and pretty much sums up what EVE is: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/208-Eve-Online

    Sure, everyone's entitled to what they feel is better. But I don't think you're going to be able to sell this notion that EVE is anything but a boring, statistical-oriented grindfest. I've read countless times how the game slows down to unplayable when anything epic happens, that battles aren't decided by skill but by sheer numbers and power playing, and that the entire game revolves around money. I seriously doubt that anyone in the WildStar dev team wants to take a page from EVE for their game that is clearly quite a bit different.

    I imagine it would be hard to demonstrate what you've wrote as actually being true with hard data as I've done in regards to my posts about WoW's raiding community. I'm not here to bash EVE though, it is what it is, and it's not trying to bring in players like myself.

    Many of the World 1st Raiders have been raiding for as long as the game has been out. A large number of heroic-level raiders are people that were playing back in Vanilla/BC (like myself).

    At this point, you're making nothing but unfounded assertions with no supporting data whatsoever.

    And when did I muddle in media hype? I've said absolutely nothing about its overall popularity. Any more blatant falsehoods you want to utter?

    I would argue it out with him. I think he's making a huge mistake and he'll eventually have to bite the bullet further down the road, one way or another. WoW devs didn't reduce raid-sizes for funzies. They didn't introduce difficulty levels for funzies. They looked at the data and decided how to fix problems. These were solutions to problems - not lazy additions, not mere whims. To act as though it's some arbitrary decision that was made in a boardroom or at random is complete nonsense.

    I remember, because I played back then. 40-man guilds, for instance, used to collapse on most servers like every other month. They collapsed from sheer drama, brought about by a myriad of factors (including the singular difficulty levels of raids). 25-mans are 15 less potential drama queens infecting your raid and killing off progression, not to mention tighter controls on the quality of every raider. Of course, you can't just keep reducing raid sizes or it no longer counts as "raiding" - but there are upper, sustainable limits, and lower, sustainable limits. There are limitations.

    To think that people are ready and willing to make the exact same mistakes over and over doesn't surprise me at all, but it's very disheartening.

    You know what they say when you assume, right?

    The problem of people being asshats is a problem of every MMORPG. It's not unique to WoW. I've seen it in literally every single game.

    You play a game long enough, and someone's going to <REDACTED> on you. That's just the nature of online games. That's just the nature of life.

    Despite that, you're the one attempting to <REDACTED> on other players by demanding a reduction of options for everyone else in some vain attempt to assuage your fears based entirely on assumptions that aren't backed up by evidence.

    Considering the skill level that I play at, I'm almost always carrying someone. I'm used to it. It doesn't bother me unless we fail to complete the task or take too much time to do so.

    Meanwhile, this is yet another thing that is common in every online game. We all have bad experiences, get over it. I'd rather do the content with randoms than not do it at all, which is what you're proposing.

    And subsequently pisses off a large playerbase that pays for their salaries. Yeah, smart business decision, there. Ethically dubious as well.

    I think people like you just don't understand the ramifications of what you're proposing. You aren't thinking it through. Let me put it this way.. Pandora's Box was already opened. You can't close it. You can choose to ignore it at your own peril. We know what happens when an MMORPG does that. They fail. So you, essentially, want WildStar to fail.

    Again, it is far easier to balance and tweak multiple difficulties than one difficulty.

    If you tweak the one-level difficulty, you end up inevitably pissing people off. Too difficult? Nerf it. Now "hardcore" players are mad. Too easy? Buff it. Now everyone that was just at the threshold is suddenly cut off from progressing. Now they're mad. You teeter-totter between the anger of one group and another, when you could've had a broader system that satisfies an even greater playerbase. You do this for no noticeable gain, because as of yet there is zero proof that a multi-difficulty system does anything damaging to a community.

    That system is black and white. Not shades of gray.

    Smart. Except not.

    When did I say that I want everyone to race through content? When did I say that I wanted hard mode to be easy, or for all content to be easy/quickly consumed?

    You do realize that each WoW raiding tier lasts approximately 4-5 months, right? And that the vast majority don't even finish Normal within that time?

    Having options, avenues, and accessibility is required for any motivation to exist. If you have no options, or reduced options, you have less opportunities for motivation. You are proposing less options, which amounts to less people being motivated to play.

    Not fine if that involves denying a large segment of the population the chance to experience significant content. Let them choose. Don't force them.

    This only happens if the other players are seeing a legitimate opportunity. Having one, single difficulty ultimately ensures that far fewer players will take a chance, because they are expressly given less opportunities.

    If you were presented with a 1000-foot sheer wall in front of you, and you knew that you couldn't do it (because let's be honest, most people are aware of how skilled they are at a given task whether or not they're willing to admit it openly), would you even attempt to scale it? Probably not. You'd just walk around it.

    Meanwhile, if I gave you the option to scale a 50 foot wall, a 200 foot wall, and a 1000 foot wall, you might say to yourself: "I could possibly do the 200-foot wall, and by doing so, build up strength/skill for the 1000-foot wall." That's what the philosophy is behind multiple difficulty levels - it's the idea that it gives you a chance to progress, a chance to build your skills and abilities. If you're never given that chance, if you're only given an impassable barrier, most people will simply say screw it and go on their merry way. Give people varying options in which they can develop, and they will more often at least try.

    I'm pretty sure the increased rate of raiding participation has resulted in more raiders in WoW. Not everyone knows what they want to do, not everyone's ultimately decided before they play the game. There are ways you can encourage them that don't involve demeaning them or denying them. It is about a positive approach to motivation, not a negative one. Give people options, extend the respect that it shows in designing things that way, and they will surprise you.

    This is your opinion.

    Multiple difficulty levels can be boring, repetitive, and time consuming. But it doesn't have to be, and clearly there's a model out there that works, no matter how much you try to ignore it.

    A single difficulty level can also be boring, repetitive, and time consuming.

    WildStar, for instance, already said there'd be two difficulty levels for the starting dungeons. Do you disagree with that?

    LOL DEVELOPERS ARE INTELLIGENT.

    Are you kidding me?

    How many flops do I have to list before you realize the error in your statement?

    Stop being a bloody fanboy. Devs aren't gods. They aren't Uber-Mensch. They're people just like you and me with varying degrees of intelligence. Just because a WildStar dev says something doesn't automatically make it irreproachable.

    Literally everything you mentioned there is a component of RAIDING, both single and multi-difficulty. They are problems universale.

    I didn't say all. I'm simply advocating for an extension of options and accessibility. That doesn't mean a random vegetable gets to successfully complete a raid. It is, simply, being far more inclusive and respectful to the overall community than the paradigm you're advocating for.

    When did I say the whole player base must like and/or participate in raiding?

    I'm advocating for significant content to be widely accessible under several formats (difficulties) so that a wider audience can experience it. This doesn't mean forcing it on everyone. It's about giving them a choice.

    This is a vacuous statement. It's clear that virtually every person to ever play an MMO consumes solo content. I don't think they'll be able to keep up with the amount of content that would be required under this format. If it's easy and accessible to everyone, then it will be consumed very rapidly. If it's too hard, then their target audience isn't being satisfied. So unless they have a long questline in the works every single week, good luck satisfying their promise. I seriously doubt this will work.

    Again, when did I mention forcing anyone to do anything? Isn't that, however, what you're trying to do? Forcing people to accept what you want for them, rather than giving them a healthy choice?

    If a hardcore raid group only kills 5 of 10 bosses on your single difficulty after several months of wiping, they'll be more likely to give up or bring in raiders that have finished the content to help boost them. Basically, once you've beaten the first 5 bosses and can't go further, there's no motivation to keep doing it.

    The above has nothing to do with where it was placed and generally doesn't make much sense.
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  6. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Given that Carbine listens to its community as much as it does, and willing to iterate things over and over until they're perfect, scrap ideas, add in new ones, make compromises, not to mention track a boatload of information from the Beta testers on top of what the devs are told from them. They'll take everything into serious consideration, and because of this if an idea comes from the 5% they'll still test out what that 5% says to see if it works better. They even (perhaps jokingly) toyed about the idea of a server with permadeath, and wondering what it would be like, what parts of it that people actually like from it to try to capture that audience. So, I think they're willing to put in the work for the long term game.

    I think that Wildstar is taking a large portion from the big brand mmo WoW, just not exactly. I would guess that the majority of non-hardcore raiders don't want to go through 40-man raiding. This leaves 20-mans and dungeons. If dungeons are fairly difficult that average joe can't get through them, this fits the gap of the normal dungeons without the logistical nightmares. 20 mans can play the part between the dungeons and 40 mans giving another step for those who are willing to put forth more effort than the dungeoneers, and still be satisfied.

    For the LFR type crowd there's the end game solo instances, because let's face it... LFR is barely more than a solo instance. Sure, there are other players there, but I know every time I queued for one I would have rather had 24 NPC's fighting alongside me.

    Also, who was right about GW2, I would consider it reaasonably successful. Not wildly successful mind you, but I certainly wouldn't call it a failure. It's still around.
  7. SituationSoap

    SituationSoap Cupcake-About-Town

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    • Please try to avoid flaming or personal attacks.
    Honest and serious question: have you ever been involved with a Beta community of a Triple A MMO at this point in its life before?
  8. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    Summary: As long as this game is exactly like WoW it'll be fine.

    Content is going to be available for consumption for all levels of players who are willing to put in the time and effort to see it. If raiding requires too much of that for certain players, then there is still a ton of other content for those types to consume. Again, as mudfin has pointed out numerous times there is nothing stopping someone from raiding, even in a hardcore model. If they do not have the time that is not a design flaw that is a lifestyle choice on the part of the player, and one they have every right to make.

    If you joined a baseball team and they practiced or played 4 nights a week for a couple hours, would it be fair to ask the league to change the entire sport because you schedule doesn't allow you to play? Of course not. You would either not play, or find a different league (aka different type of content or different video game altogether) to join that suited your lifestyle.

    In regards to you 2nd point, I honestly wish you could have played WoW pre-wotlk. Content never went obsolete like it does now, it was the ultimate 'value' from a development standpoint. T4, T5 and T6 were all actively being raided at the same time by guilds at varying levels of progression. There was meaningful progression to be had for anyone who wanted to raid. Did every player see every boss? No they didn't, I myself was one of those players. The world felt huge and bosses felt intimidating, the very fact that I couldn't see everything gave the whole world real sense of authenticity that is sorely lacking today.
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  9. Yakzan

    Yakzan "That" Cupcake

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    <Mod Monocle> Sorry, but the thread has fallen into a spiral of toxic discourse. I see no truly constructive discussion coming from it anymore so it falls onto me to end it by locking the thread. Next time, try not to turn the discussion into a shouting match rather than an open and civil discussion. </Mod Monocle>
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