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Dungeon Accessibility and Community Strength

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by SituationSoap, Apr 28, 2013.

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  1. Mailroomclerk

    Mailroomclerk Cupcake

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    Quoted for truth.
  2. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    As has been mentioned, the children of Azeroth (those who play WoW) are coming. Wildstar needs a way to retain them for a successful business plan. Populations don't only create economy outside of game, but also help balance the economies within the game, if you're on a small population server everything's ridiculously inflated in price. So, there's reasons to have large player bases for reasons other than the money. Wildstar should be different than WoW, but still retain the players which attempt to play it.
  3. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    Can't find the link but there was an interview where Gaffney said that he wouldn't mind if Wildstar didn't get a single transplant from WoW. He would rather see ex-wow players who grew tired of that game be the ones who come on board for Wildstar.

    Edit: found the link
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  4. Diableblanc

    Diableblanc Cupcake

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    I agree with OP, it's good to have a game where hardcore games can go hard, but if it's not accesible at all it's gonna be really offputting for newplayers that are looking to move to another game.
  5. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    If that's true, awesome. If not, revert to my argument. I'm submitting that the solo elder gameplay is the retaining content, so it doesn't mess with any dungeons or raids.
  6. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    I really hope that this includes something that resembles the epic questlines in Vanilla, like the class quests, Benediction questline and even the Onyxia quest. ( no attunment, just the epic quest with something cool at the end )
    Even into BC, there was the Black Temple quest, that allowed you to wear a costume inside the raid instance, and gave you a necklace that ported you to BT.
  7. Sevvy

    Sevvy Cupcake-About-Town

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    I always have a smirk on my face.

    They all try to emulate WoW. As much as they say they're not going to, they try.

    SWTOR is a great example. Easy themepark game where they all but hand you purples, and keep telling everyone "OMG we're gonna have a dungeon finder soon!" No dungeon teleports, but don't worry, all the instances are on the fleet. How convenient and easy. No need to go back out into that nasty ole world we worked so hard on. You can do everything from the lobby! I mean, FLEET!

    Hell, they even compared themselves to WoW quite a bit. Maybe we can blame that on EA. I don't know.
  8. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    The game companies didnt really need to compare themselves to wow because everyone in the comments section and on the forums all over the net, did it for them, on both ToR and Rift just to name 2.
  9. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    From what I can understand it's going to be very lore intensive, but the same for every player, though there may be choices in it. It's also supposed to be challenging, and I think I remember something about solo instancing, but that could be another system in place.
  10. Orcbum

    Orcbum New Cupcake

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    Like another person posted a page before, MMORPGS that tried so hard to deviate from World of Warcraft tend to not do so well. It's strange how many gaming industries don't study why WoW is so popular as it is, and really just focus on what is new, what is different, what will be the "Ooo!" factor of their game.

    This isn't a practical approach to anything.

    World of Warcraft is a tried and true MMORPG. It's not exciting, and it has certainly lost a lot of its previous appeal since WotLK, but what makes them #1 is simply the fact that they have covered all of bases, the infrastructure, the mechanics--the essentials of making a MMORPG good, not great, but GOOD--and they have it perfected and polished to an art. The world is immersing, lore and questing are so interconnected, the combat, heck the entire gameplay, feels smooth, and really it's not about what content WoW has, it's about how many annoying nuances and game0breaking aggravations WoW DOESN'T have.
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  11. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    Seems like the thread really got some traction, but for some reason, I can't get past this first paragraph:

    I don't think anyone can dispute that content is designed differently for a set of random players who have never worked together and are not communicating (group A) vs. a well-practiced team of players who already know each other and are in fact speaking to each other during gameplay (group B.)

    Putting together a group randomly via a "dungeon finder" means that you typically get group A from the example above. The more that becomes the expectation, the developers have to respond to meet it. And that means that you also start to get content version A, which is boring and sad for group B.

    At any rate, how you've drawn the conclusion that "easier dungeons = larger community" remains a mystery to me. They way you presented it is called "false cause."


    You've most likely seen me talk about the difference between a group and a team before, so I will spare the wall of text. But, while anyone can join a group, players will *aspire* to join a team. Big difference in the quality of play fostered by that distinction.

    I've said it before - the barriers that Carbine and other developers should be breaking down is not achieved by lowering difficulty. Instead, they should focus on barriers that keep players from forming long-term in-game relationships instead of facilitating one-night quickies with the dungeon finder. Doing that only ensures the same problem for the same players night after night and leads to a further decline in the content and community. Solve the long-term, not the short-term.

    And that will form a vibrant community.
    Mudfin, Sevvy, BlindSear and 3 others like this.
  12. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Some of the developers from Wildstar are from WoW and other MMORPG's. So... they've done their homework.

    WoW is good and large and successful. No one's arguing that. Or if they are, they shouldn't be. But if you come up with too similar a game to WoW it will fail, due to bad business venture. The market's already saturated with WoW. It's a better idea to make a completely unique game, and steal concepts from WoW. This is all WoW did, and it worked well for them, because they let other games test out systems, and when they prove to be good, they iterate it, if they prove to be bad, they don't. Blizzard does come up with a lot of unique ideas, but an equal amount is simply taken from other areas.
  13. Orcbum

    Orcbum New Cupcake

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    I agree but I'm not strictly talking about similarities and innovations in itself, simply that the foundations of a good MMORPGs are to be built and perfected first. Similar to how having a good foundation of basic algebra will aid in any further arithmetic venture.
  14. Mailroomclerk

    Mailroomclerk Cupcake

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    Hell ya, so much fun. Some of quest lines were hardly ever matched. I felt really attached to some of these attunement quests. For someone who wasn't interested much in lore and had no knowledge of Onyxia from the time I spent in Warcraft 3 (and someone who still doesn't know s*** about Onyxia to this day hahaha), I "felt" the power of this boss from the gate and the things I had to do to get it open!


    Only if this "epic" quest required you to do something epic. Benediction was epic because it was essentially a drop from the 2nd to last boss of a raid. It became more epic when a difficult quest was attached, and even more epic when the stats were high - along with looking amazing. It was freakin' epic. The item to start the quest was a drop but getting the item didn't not mean you had the staff. The difficulty of the quest was based off sort of a prerequisite, you had to have the gear and skill to complete it. If you had been raiding, with a majority of high end blue gear then you were likely alright. If you started the quest from killing a guy you never had problems with, did a tuned down version of that same quest to accommodate lower gear and had a staff that looked good and had amazing stats then everyone would have it and Benediction would not be considered epic. It would still be a cool looking staff but that's about it.

    Attunements were great, I'd love to see them come back in some form. We shouldn't accept borderline "because I don't want to work for it" ideology. Key's were awesome journeys that had you visiting tons of content that later unlocked more content. It showed people who had raid like mentality. You remove the borders and you have novice players trying out for the New England Patriots. A bunch of guys skipping to the hardest content unprepared going "F****** thaaat" and so they'll want it easier. "This guy has his attunement? Oh cool, lets get him in here." He did this dungeon and that dungeon and this quest and traveled here. Even though you are likely rewarded on the way, your ultimate reward is that sweet golden ticket.

    These awesome quests don't have to be focused towards just raiding. There can still be long worthy quests lines that follow your path and playstyle. This was just following the idea of an attunement or raid orientated quests. I don't think you should get raid quality epics outside of raids, especially if it's at that quality. I'm also starting to question the motives of someone who would like to do the attunement quests. If you want to do them because they are epic or get you into another place then hell ya. If you want to do them because they unlock a place (you never intended on going) while also giving you an item which matches the quality of the place you haven't experienced in, then :( :( :( :inlove: :inlove: :inlove:
  15. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    I don't mind attunements, I do however understand certain ones were tough to come by ( Hyjal and BT ) and I can see a compromise if there were attunements added to the game. I would also agree that you shouldn't get raid quality rewards outside of raids.
  16. Mailroomclerk

    Mailroomclerk Cupcake

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    Yeah, I can understand that. Some key's were a little redundant where you had to grind rep in a normal dungeon to unlock the heroic version such as in BC. I'm neither here nor there on it, though it wasn't a very interesting way of unlocking content though it still sort of did the job. As an attunement towards raiding.
  17. Eliat_kuni

    Eliat_kuni Cupcake

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    Agree about everything you said :).but then why a vocal minority from that niche is seeing the casual as a virus is beyond me.

    I was debating the 5-man dungeon and I think it should be a viable elder game for the casual with maybe a simple raid for initiating the recruit.
  18. azmundai

    azmundai Well-Known Cupcake

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    I love how posts like this get ignored and people just keep talking about how this game MUST be accessible to them.
  19. Joukehainen

    Joukehainen Well-Known Cupcake

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    This is the same question I keep asking myself while reading a lot of the posts in these threads.


    Agreed.
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  20. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    The systems which are put in place to keep casual gamers around are disruptive to a hardcore community, due to the hardcore community's already low population, and systems being harder on the player in general. This is because it takes a while to get used to doing things without the matchmaking systems, because you have to form a community first. Then the community has to come up with its own solutions, by setting unspoken rules in place, that are just accepted by the norm.

    If the simplifying tools are in place, it's very easy to get tired of waiting for a group, and just queue in if the system is available. This also detracts from the game because you have a looming feeling that you should just give up and queue up with some randoms. It gives a feeling of actually being in a world, with a journey to go do a dungeon, instead of just appearing there. The feel of a place where all the players accept this rule will give automatic mutual respect for choosing the road less traveled. If the systems are in place with the hardcore community, people often falter from the accepted rules, and cheat by using the systems. If they get ahead, there's no way to prove they didn't cheat, so slander comes about and destroys the community. More and more people start breaking the rules, because it's been deemed "acceptable" then the feeling that you're doing it the "harder" way just feels harder and not like you're part of an exclusive club.

    This isn't to say that this community is wrong because they're the minority. It's the same thing as saying who was world first for Tier 14 Heroic in Mists of Pandaria? Technically the answer is Dream Paragon, using a 10-man team. Since 10 man was considered equal difficulty to 25 man by Blizzard. Is this cheating? Not gonna get into that argument, and I don't think anyone else should either. The idea is similar though, that it's not cheating, but it's just not the accepted norm... So, in many ways they were discredited.

    Basically it boils down to the hardcore wanting a style of gameplay and a feel to a game which currently doesn't exist, because it's generally a bad business model. You do need enough players to support the game especially at launch, and especially because players expect so much from games these days that you can't start with something simple and hardcore and then gradually improve (EVE online is a good example of this). You have to start with something amazing and gradually improve (especially Wildstar at this point, being that they've been developing this game for 5 years, keep on chugging Carbine, you're doing awesome).

    Basically, it is better for the overall server community, because it forces a healthy community on the server in order to play the game. That isn't to say that it can't be done outside of hardcore servers, it is just that it is automatic in hardcore servers. Sure there's the occasional "that guy" but once he's a pariah he basically has to quit the server. The hardcores will stick together and support eachother due to being in a harsher environment which does automatically give automatic mutual respect. It means the players are willing to go the extra mile, because there's no other option.

    This again is not an argument that hardcore communities are better than casual. It is stating the differences between them, and why the community is adamant about a lot of finicky systems which are accepted as "the norm" in most games.

    If you agree with this type of community and want to have your own server to mold, please check out the thread in my signature. If you don't, that's fine, I think there should be separate servers, because the two groups will rarely see eye to eye. It also would give a chance for casuals to see a full on hardcore environment, if they decide to roll on one "for fun."

    If it turns out the outcry is simply just wrong and the same problems plague the hardcore server as they do on the others, these servers will just naturally die, and no one will play on them. If there's enough players to populate a server with this ruleset, it'd be hard to argue not making one though. There are also varying degrees of hardcore rulesets, not going to get into them, but that's the overall feel.
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