Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by CRB_Gortok, May 23, 2013.
I'd tend to agree with the latter, I am ignorant of what you speak of for the former.
It was a quest in vanilla wow designed specifically for the hunters. You had to solo 4 different demons across the world and you had to use different approach to each.
Yeah, that would be awesome.
Ever try the legendary staff quest in Firelands? The boss you fight at the end of the first chain is very hard, harder for some than others. I did it as a balance druid, took me three hours to do. Three, long, frustrating hours, on the boss alone. Let's not add the time it took to get to the boss. Hard solo content can, and has been done.
I miss the class quests like that and really hope they give us similar things in Wildstar.
Ok, I am supported then... solo content has been done that's extremely challenging. Wildstar do stuff like that, except make it everywhere!
Well those are something different, like the Sigils, you mean. Yeah, those are pretty cool when you can get them stacked up. What I think we were all talking about was more like the food buffs, where each time you kill you get a stack of Might for 5-10 seconds or something like that. I agree that the permanent buff would be more useful.
Well they might be, although I don't think that there's much justification for anyone to claim superiority over another player.
That alone wouldn't be "elitsist," I mean, if they want to challenge themselves by taking on something alone, then it would cheapen the experience is other people started making it easier for them, right? I don't typically go into a situation with that goal in mind, but if I did I could easily see getting frustrated if someone interfered.
But that's just a situational bias. When you hear people leaving the game it's because of raids, but that's because you are more likely to hear from raiders. When raiders leave they typically leave loud, and they typically fraternize with likeminded people, so you're more likely to hear them go, but when non-raiders leave they tend to leave with more of a whisper, just in larger numbers because there are way more of them. I think it's fair to say that the majority of players who leave with "you're going to miss me suckers" letters are probably raiders in a lot of cases, but those make up only a miniscule fraction of the actual player population, and the overwhelming majority of the population will never read those letters. The game's developers will actually "miss them" very little.
I agree, which is why I was saying you should get multiple stacks. If there's no way to store it, then each kill should give you like 5+ stacks of the power, enough to affect multiple attacks in a row. If you can store them up, then each kill would only need to give one stack, but with a cap of maybe 20-30.
If the concern is that people will just farm the first few bosses (with those classes that find those easiest), then use a similar model to some of the JPs in GW2. Make it so that each boss does not drop loot, but instead drops a unique key. You can store these keys indefinitely, so if you only want to do one boss per day or something then you can, but even if you get a dozen Boss 1 keys you can't do anything with it. You'd need one of each key to unlock a massive chest at the end, filled with loot enough to account of all three bosses.
I would be very very excited if there were epic quest arcs, like EverQuest did with the 1.0 class weps, 1.5 improvements, and 2.0 epic wep chains. You could do 75% of it solo (and get really nice solo gear for it), or you could continue and get a group for the next 10% (and have the item get subsequently better), or you could organize raids to TRULY max it out (and those epic weps were absolutely awesome, folks used them for years.) The arcs were truly massive and...well....epic in scope. I've been waiting for another MMO to do what EQ did for the "epic quest arc" and just haven't found anything that gives that same "oomph" feel and ZOMG I DID IT! appeal.
This is kinda the reverse of what WoW is doing/did with the last few legondaries. Staff and daggers both had several stages, you would do a raid collectathon then go do some solo content, be rewarded with the legondary in a small form, and push for the next stage till you got to the end.
While I've horror stories of how EQ worked (even when people were praising it, I was horrified), this idea of needing to do solo and raid content for high/top end gear is really appealing to me.
The true beauty is you put in however much effort you wanted, and were rewarded appropriately for it. Was a great balance of time and effort and shiny loot. Pure solo/small group players could get gear that was BiS for them without raiding, raiders could get BiS gear for them by raiding (after the soloing/grouping bit). Was just sublime balance.
OK_ I think we all got off on a tangent again how we think solo progression is worthless, meaningful, equal, etc etc....
Lets stop looking at gear stats for a second and possible ways to implement them and take a look at how things will match up instead.... We already know there are plans to be SSG/Raiding/PvP and each of these should have some transparency so that they can be a tier (or 2?) behind in effectiveness.
Raiding has a progression that apparently will go from Heroics > 20 Man > 40 Man
Solo has a progression we have no real clear cut answer to but, there are quests- Solo Instances- Small Group (2-3?) Instances and nothing else I can think of... Leading me to believe the progression will form as a "Large Quest Line > Solo Instances > Small Group Instances"
PvP we have a progression that will likely go from Battlegrounds > Arena > Warplots. (PvP is the strange one since it goes from 20 man, small group, 40 man instead of progressively larger groups.)
With this in mind that means if Tier 3 is equal to Tier 1 Solo gear will have a distinctive disadvantage in terms of acquiring gear. Since they would have access to the content before-hand (through heroics or battlegrounds) to acquire gear that is equal to their BIS gear progression. This also would mean Warplot gear and 40 Man raid gear would be so weak that the terms of power progression would either be minimal or non-existent as doing quests is a norm no matter your content.
Whats this mean? The system will have minimal transparency instead- meaning Tier 3 is equal to Tier 2 in the other tiers. This way Small Group Instances can comfortably skip 5 man heroics to some degree and start in 20 mans or play in arenas. This also means a 40 man raider could possibly skip the large quest lines and go to solo instances and not have problems to some degree.
Without some form of a transparent stat added to raiding or solo (like in pvp) then it is impossible to achieve equal stats.
Every player that thinks they are the best at something is elitist. Declaring that you deserve the best is equivalent to saying you are the best.
Again, why expose yourself to lag in your single player experience? Because you want recognition, to impress people. So, having made that impression, what do you get from it? Acceptance, now you are good enough to play with the group, and for them to rely upon you. Solo content flows into group content seamlessly.
Having 400 people in a guild does nothing for a community in and of itself, Activities are paramount.
Yep, no one even notices that they're gone. No roots, no bonds, no personality. They played the game like they were reading a book, and put it on the shelf.
What is this fixing? First week you only clear the first boss, the next week you can only clear the first two and the week after that you finally clear the whole thing, now those 3 keys from the first two bosses are sitting in your inventory forever(or obviously discard them). You made it to the chest once, you opened it once, wheres the problem?
I'm actually doing my Ranger Epic 1.0 right now as I'm typing this. And I thought "Man, if Wildstar had something like that... It would triple seal the deal! (already been sealed twice for paths and mentoring)". Seriously! I want a really, REALLY long questline where I can spend so much time when I'm either bored, or have gamer insomnia (too tired to do anything that others rely on, yet too awake to go to bed and want to play the game).
The reward has to be something physical. Sure, it must be competitive with the stuff in the largest end-game content. But, what you could do, is make the solo/small party players work a LOT to achieve the same thing you could get for organizing big group content and praying to the RNG god for a drop. You won't get the thing (hopefully weapon) in a week. Maybe not even a month! So the group play alternative still sort of favors you. It's all up to luck and most importantly group coordination (which should be what yields the highest rewards).
I just want a frigging long quest I can complete and be proud of what I got out of it. It has to be visual as well. And it must NOT be balanced equally with <REDACTED> you can buy on the market. I'm looking at you, Guild Wars 2.
I think PvP progression is more likely to be time / win based rather than type, so rather than BG > Arena > warplot, it would be ranking based. Also I disagree with the solo/small group progression - to me it seems long quest lines, solo instances and small group instances are at the same progression level. There is no need to gear up in a solo instance to do a group dungeon... otherwise raid progression becomes solo progression followed by raid progression! Something neither raid nor solo community want.
Solo progression would be tackling harder (higher level?) content in quests and instances. Now that harder content could be solo run of a small group nor group instance, but the game would have to recognise the achievement and reward appropriately.
But I agree we need to have some transparent stat that defines the gear's purpose. I also think that raid, PvP and solo gear should be roughly equivalent in open world content - but better at their respective target content. The trick for solo play could therefore be to tag elder game solo content that is intended for solo gear in some manner, so that the gear bonuses can be triggered - this could be hazard zones (things secret world nightmare mob areas), quest tags, and instance ? Alternatively raid gear simply does not do the extra raid stuff outside of a raid - which means the base power level remains the same between epic solo and raid gear.
Oh and BTW, from personal experience I would say that mixing solo quest chains with raid requirements is a problem as it slams a barrier in the way of progression, even if it is an additional quest chain. If the play styles are intended to be separately catered for then there should be choices not (eg. do this raid to get x, or do this long solo quest chain and solo instance to get x).
Well- that is what I'm trying to point out.... The transparency on the stats is something everyone seems to be forgetting a ton of times and while they may think how it affects equal tier level elsewhere- it should be effective (sorta?) in the lower tier of another progression. The things you were saying shouldn't happen yes- as my progression line COULD work but, only if the gear is legitimately separated correctly. That way raids don't feel they can run to Solo Progression and gear up with additional 20 man or so forth. That is one big issue I feel we're running into and we're forgetting to take not of it early.
20 Mans are tier 2 while solo gear will be getting 'equivalent' gear from it. It doesn't matter what type of raider you are- you're going to look at the 20 man and go "why- I can solo for equal gear and jump to 40s" This problem isnt evident anywhere else due to the other progressions taking more coordination (effort) and likely more prone to RNG drops or other players (Winning or Losing in a match).
At the moment I'm stump'd as to how the transparency could work in such a way from making raiders not just mash out solo content in a night (Rough estimate of a no-life 1%'er content eater's time?) and then skip to 40 mans and get through content even faster. [You effectively just skipped the heroic dungeon grinds and the 20 man raid grinds Congrats 2/3 of the raiding progression is now done by yourself through the solo progression... btw the solo progression is now done and you have effectively 2/3 of the arena progression done]
I dislike the highly separated PVP for more PVP, PVE for more PVE approach that has become so common. It separates the game too much. It kinda takes the fun out of raiding for good gear when 90% of that gear is useless for anything but raiding because you need to have some special stat only found on pvp gear to have a chance in pvp.
Alright lets just assume for now that you can make solo content that's as hard as raid content. With that out of the way, if you want the best solo gear that is equal to 40 man raid gear you should have to put in just as much effort.
Lets look at current raiding tier in WoW, Ra-Den (the last boss in the tier) has only been killed on heroic by 143 guilds right now which is .53% of all raiding guilds. Assuming that your average raid guild has 20 people (somewhere between 10 and 25 man guild rosters, hard to know without actual adding it up myself) less then 3,000 people have cleared all the content and have access to the best gear. Compare this to WoW's 8,000,000 total subs and you find that less then .04% or 4 out every ten thousand people can complete the content. This is the kind of chalenge a raider has to go through to get the best gear. If you as a solo player want the best gear in your progression path, you need to do content just as challenging.
Now i have to ask, is this what people who mainly solo in mmos want? Weeks of grueling wipes on a boss with a large possibility of not getting it down before nerfs. If you do and the devs can make solo content this hard then i say go for it. Im all over content like this and ill be happy to share the prestige of the best gear with players of this caliber no mater what content they enjoy.
Now of course not every solo boss needs to be this hard just like every raid encounter needs to be this hard, its no fun just to hit a brick wall the moment you start. The encounters should ramp up, but only the really hard encounters should ever reward the same level of gear as high end raiding.
As to how the gear itself would look, all 3 top end sets (raid, solo, pvp) should have the same amount of core stats. The only difference would be the addition to an extra stat/stats for raiding and pvp. PvP of course would include pvp defense and offense. In my opinion the best choice for raiding would be a critical mitigation stat. Basically every raid bosses abilities would have a chance to crit for X% extra damage. The crit mit would be baked onto the raid gear without taking up stat points so that out in the world the pvp/pve/solo player would have exactly the same stats if they had equivalent tiers of gear.
To a point, but I really don't think I've heard any solo players seriously claim that they deserve to have better than anyone else. Some insist that we should be considered equal to raiders, but not above them. Wanting everyone to be equal at the top is not elitist, only claiming that you deserve more than the rest.
If that's what you want to do, sure, and that's how it goes, but if you have NO interest in raiding, then you shouldn't have any reason to get involved. Are you actually so deluded as to believe that the only reason that not everyone raids is because those who don't are not good enough to do so if they wanted to?
Sure, less drama, but from the developer's perspective, their money is as good as yours, so while you might leave a game with more drama, there are a lot more of them, and if they're unhappy, then a lot more of them are likely to leave for similar reasons, taking their money with them.They care a lot more about ten player's money than they do about your little rants about how you were properly deified for all the raiding you do.
There isn't a problem. The problem that this idea was meant to solve was the idea that a solo dungeon might contain multiple bosses, each of which was tuned to be particularly difficult for a particular build, like say one that is difficult for a tank to beat, one that is difficult for a DPS to beat, and one that is difficult for a healer to beat. The concern raised was that if the first one you came across was the anti-tank one, then maybe DPS and healers would just farm away at that one and get a bunch of loot each time it was available, and never bother progressing to the ones meant to challenge them. The three-key system would be designed to force each player to take on all three bosses before getting any significant reward from it.
I actually hope that there isn't any solo progression. I hope that the solo play is broad rather than tall, with lots of different objectives you can pursue, but in whatever order you wish, rather than having to do a bunch of Task A stuff before you're in any shape to even try Task B stuff, and then wrap up Task B before Task C is even possible.
It shouldn't take any fewer hours of solo play to earn a full set of solo gear than it should take to earn it via raids. If a player can "grind out" a full set of solo gear in a single night then why wouldn't he just do the same thing in raids?
To be honest, if the content were that difficult I probably wouldn't bother with it, at that point at least. Of course as the game ages things tend to get a bit easier, and I might come back when it's more in my skill range. I'm a "normal mode" gamer, not a "nightmare mode" gamer, but still, I don't want content blocked off from me.
No, I have talked about a buff you can hold up permanently and is refreshed by killing blows. If you don't fight or fight in long fights without killing anything it will run out. You can have as much stacks AND time as you like, until the time isn't to long to exploit the buff in another content (like joining a bg or farming the buff and run to a raidboss).
I have never suggested 10 sec or something like this. I have suggested a time between 30 and 40 sec and a cooldown of 10 sec to avoid AE buff stacking. But you can have much more, I think after 2 min it goes exploitable. But if you want 2 min... I have no concerns. I have always thought about a very effective idea to make you stronger and keeps you strong. And all this discussion about it will not work in any challenging solo boss fights is nonsense, because you just have to bring in a single small weak mob time after time you have to kill to keep up your buff. And this can even be a glowing ball with one hitpoint you have to catch up. It's a part of the challenge to catch the glowing ball.
These two statements together are the problem. If you want gear equivalent to gear only the top raiders can obtain, then you need to do the same level of content.
I'm going to be honest here, i have never been a world first/top ten raider and i accept that i will get gear a little down the line. Even if i could i wouldn't want to forced into playing more then 40 hours a week and being forced into doing whatever it takes to down a boss. I know its not for me, and its fine because i have fun being able to clear all the content before its nerfed and even getting a few server firsts along the way.
The difference is, instead of asking for content to be easier so i can have the same level of gear as the super high end, im happy with my level of progress in and of itself. Its okay to nerf content when its not the hardest thing in the game anymore, but there should always be that one boss that only a few guilds/few dozen solers on a server can kill before the next patch.
Really now we just have to wait and see. If they do make content like this im interested to see how many people actual take part.
Raid gear doesn't need special stats this just needlessly convolutes the system, not to mention crit mitigation would be useless (or close to it) on DPS and heal gear unless every ability for every boss automatically crits players.
The only reason PvP stat exist is because the gear grind is secondary (but still psychologically required) for PvP it lets PvP players have the feeling of being rewarded for good performance without allowing other aspects of the game to impact on balance.
The solution to solo gear isn't magic stats that turn on or off or certain random buffs in certain situations (this just ads complexity to the game not depth). All you have to do it make it innately suboptimal for raiding by baking offensive and defensive stats onto the gear (which would be required anyway as you would have no tanks to take hits for you).
I would also personally limit the BSTs on solo gear to equal or slightly above entry level raid gear to limit the temptation for raiders to grind solo content to get an edge over grinding 5 mans to get raid ready.
There three simple easy to understand streams of gearing that allows for people to feel they have 'progression in their chosen gear and not step on any toes.
~PvP Gear; Pvp stats as gearing is secondary in PvP to winning and the thrill of victory
~Solo gear; More innately balanced stat wise as a solo player would have to dps and heal/tank at the same time, limited BSTs to prevent it being used in raiding (as it will inevitably drop sooner then raid gear).
~Raid gear; Tailored for maximum PvE efficiency under holy trinity conditions, gets blown away in PvP and is sub optimal for solo situations (at least initially).