Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by CRB_Gortok, May 23, 2013.
We should talk about drop chances for solo content equeal to raid content. ;-)
Disagree with you here, in EQ2 if you didn't have the proper crit mit, you got one shot by AE's, no ifs ands or buts. Even if crits don't one shot, they will make a fight that's already hard to heal impossible. I'm not really talking about a convoluted system, its not something that anyone would have trouble understanding. Keep in mind im not talking about a stat found on chips, but rather something baked into the base stats of all raid progression gear. A solo piece might have 1000power for stats a raid piece might have 1000power + 10crit mit and a pvp piece might have 1000power + 100pvp offense.
I don't think crit mit really turns off and on. Just some mobs crit and others do not. It dosn't feel any more artificial then needing more hit on higher level monsters or any other stat for that matter. Remember we are talking about boots that make you more brutal and gloves that make you smarter here.
If the first crit mit gear came from dungeons, you would still be required to run dungeons before raiding. And uber chalenging solo gear can still exist.
I'm not so convinced that just having a balanced set of stats is enough to stop raiders from wanting solo gear. Some fights focus on dps checks and others are more of a healing check. On the healing check fights, why wouldn't you want some extra defence. Going the other way. What would stop you from taking a glass cannon dps piece and trading some crit for deflect.
If by this you mean that a raider has the same average chance of getting an upgrade after a boss kill as a high end solo player, fine with me. For instance, lets say a 40 man raid drops on average 5 pieces per boss. This means that on average you will get a piece every 8 bosses. If the content is just as hard for the solo player then they too should get about a 12.5% chance at picking up an item every time the boss dies.
I never did them, but I looked up videos about them. Jesus, those looked hard as hell and especially - challenging and long!
Pretty awesome solo content, despite the fact you had to start the questchain in a raid...Making it not that solo-able as the quests make you think it is, but I'd really like hard solo content. As in, very hard bosses.
...Great now I'll have to roll soldier. *sigh* What about exploring?! Oh well.
And you can kill him only once per week of course.
Because 93 times out of 100 having more crit its going to be optimal then deflect in a raid situation because that little bit of deflect would be so low its unlikely at best to actually help (even dedicated tanks have less then 50% passive avoidance/parry in most cases anyway).
Also there is a reason stam is the go to defensive stat in raid situations, because you don't take damage enough (even on healing checks) to warrant specialized tank stats also generally fights only have one type of raid damage (and aoe spell or adds (white) hitting people randomly rarely if ever both) stam covers all damage types so it is mathematically optimal (especially healing checks).
Also I saw somewhere you said you have some server firsts. Do you really think if you as a dps or heals rocked up to a raid in your guild with pieces with 'tanking' stats they wouldn't be sat for someone who bothered to seriously gear (or at best get a stern talking too) they sure as hell would in my guild?
this also is where limiting and balancing base stat totals comes in lets say solo gear can be equivalent in terms of raw stats as heroic gear (that both have the same BSTs) just give it a smaller allocation of damage compared to an equivalent heroic piece (i.e knock 10 points of brutality and drop that equally into rest of the secondary stats).
So you would end up with two gloves that are like (assuming 1 point of a primary stat is worth roughly the same as 2 of a secondary stat)
Instance; 40 Str, 40 Stam, 20 Crit chance, 20 Crit damage
Solo; 30 Str, 40 Stam, 30 Deflect, 30 Crit damage
Under no circumstances would the second piece be acceptable for a raider to show up with when the heroic piece is available and they would certainly be doing less damage.
Duh... Mainly- I'm of the opinion that if solo content will be viable to walk into raiding content at any level besides Heroics and say "I have equal gear" and not have this situation for their gear I would be rather annoyed.
We're now off topic....
Mainly I think we can easily say we lack significant information on this game to answer the developer's question.... Who is up for making them wait for us getting the information and forcing them to wait or give it to us sooner?
Hmm, maybe. It's essentially a rage buff system, which has it's benefits, I don't know, could come in handy (I actually have an Adrenaline-junkie Warrior at the moment), but I tend to not like these mechanics as they tend to psychologically encourage you into fight after fight even when you'd rather do some other type of content. It wouldn't be terrible, but wouldn't be my favorite option.
Well, that would depend on the content designers to make sure cannon fodder is always available.
I'm not saying I would necessarily deserve the very best solo gear, I've never claimed to be the best of the best, I'm no Kirito, but I would like the path to exist either way. I also think it's worth pointing out that just because only a certain number of people actually do the raid content, doesn't mean that everyone else can't. If every player on the server made an honest and well prepared run against that top tier raid and only .4% made it through, then kudos to them, but we don't know how many of that remaining 99.6% of the players just couldn't be hassled with it but could get through it if they bothered.
The point is, maybe even if the game did present a solo challenge that was every bit as difficult as the raid, let's say they made a solo version of the raid itself, in which you were accompanied by 39 NPC each programmed to do the raid "perfectly," and all you needed to of was do your role, otherwise the whole thing collapses, then maybe even 5-10% of the server's population could complete that content just fine, but just had no interest in running it as a raid.
That aside, I've always felt that the reward systems should be more inclusive than exclusive in general, so I'm not a fan of the "only 1% or less will catch up to this tier" mechanic on principle. If there is super duper hard super exclusive stuff, I probably won't get it until it becomes more approachable, but personally, I don't think there should be anything that exclusive.
Meh, I don't see the point of that. The idea should be to make it so that as many people as reasonably possible will be able to enjoy the content. Now that doesn't mean that it should be so easy that anyone can faceroll it, there's a certain threshold of challenge that is necessary for even the average player to enjoy it, but it shouldn't be soul crushing, not in a massively multiplayer game. Soul crushing is for single player fare. If they then want to add "hard mode" versions of the contents for bragging rights only (no superior loot or anything, just "we did it" rights) then that's fine too, but the basic elements of the content should be fairly accessible.
Of course, all the same limitations should apply on how quickly a solo player could acquire his gearing. The limitations are in there for a reason, if they wanted to they could allow 24/7 raiding, they've chosen to restrict it to once per week. It wouldn't make sense to allow someone to grind solo content 24/7 and knock out a full set in a fraction of the time.
After thinking about how things would play out, I don't think there really needs to be a lot that is different between raiding gear and solo gear.
Lets say the progression is where solo content top tier gear is equal to medium tier small group content (5 man) gear and medium tier small group content gear is good enough to start out in raids, then there shouldn't be any issues.
This would allow solo players to enjoy progression and yet still be able to do group content later should they decide. It would also allow those who like grouping to reach the same point without having to go through end solo content.
Now it does put raiding above those two, but there needs to be continued progression. Otherwise, because everyone likes carrots, only one of the two (2) paths would need to be taken.
I've thought about it too, and have found I have no problem with this either, with one caveat.
I think this is fine too, but there should be a weapon or something at the end that you need to progess through as a raider which is better for solo content. This means the content is also viable for a raider, though not too annoying gear wise. The problem is if you give this content to the 65% but then the raiders say, "wow that looks challenging and fun!" Then they go do it and there's no real feeling of progression in it, and it's all just "easy" because they outgear the content, and on top of that, they don't really get any rewards from doing the content. That'd be boring for Raiders. I think it'd be fine if the solo content had a tier lag time behind the raid to simplify it, but there was one or two pieces that were better (somehow) for solo than for raiding.
The carrot needs to be there (even if it's a minor carrot) for the raiders doing the solo path as well. I think designing whole sets around solo play would make for an equipment management nightmare, especially if the players were raiding PVP and solo, but a piece or two would be a good feel. This means that soloers could feel accomplished, in that there's only one way to get X weapon, and they did it, and no one can take away that achievement from them. But at the same time Raiders are revered for PVE still and still have that feeling of "Wow! You RAID?!" You don't want raiding to be the end-all be-all for all players, because not all players belong there. In fact, most of them do not, and I think those players only hurt the raiding community, due to being disloyal and unmotivated. This isn't cause they're bad people, or bad players, they're just not raiders.
Hmm. I am sorry but I don't agree with the raiders are gods argument. Raiders may be raid gods but that should not mean that they face roll all PvE - it cheapens the content for the raider and annoys the dedicated PvE soloer.
Maybe the trick is to have some kind of augment system where you augment your gear with additional content specific capability? So you could raid and get a raid augment which boosts raid stats and protections, do elder solo and get an augment for solo, and PvP and get a PvP augment. This would mean the same gear could be used in different content but would have subtlety different effects or stats... this would be on top of the base stats of the gear. However you could only have one of each type of augment in each piece of gear (or maybe 2 of the 3 types).
Agreed this is just another form of separation, but it means that content cannot be trivialised without the appropriate level of effort within that play style having been put in. It is the same argument as PvP vs PvE ( and raid especially) - separation means you cannot jump to the top of one play style from having been successful in the other.
Slightly more on topic...
How about solo gear that tries to "balance" your capabilities? So DPS gets shields and heals on hit, Tank gets heals and damage on block/mitigation or when taking damage, and healers get shields and damage on self heals. This would be generally suboptimal for raiding (depending on what a raid tank needs for a specific encounter).
Nope, if you want acknowledgement of being among the best, you're already an elitist.
They're interested in the gear, it comes from raiding, I don't see the problem.
They have a lifespan of a mayfly though, their overall money is not as good. Raids dont happen without leadership either, people are contributing that effort so that other players can have an enjoyable raid experience (which they pay money to receive), solo players dont make that contribution.
If you're doing repeatable challenges on a weekly lockout for solo content, solo or big group, why mush all 3 bosses into one instance? Break them down ala carte, if someone only wants to do the one of the 3 challenges which is easy for their char, they will progress a third as quickly as someone who sweats through all 3.
I would like to see the same thing in full raids, break that 3 hour raid out into 6 half hour raids. Its the uninterrupted time commitment people balk at first and foremost.
How about a set of solo instances that come after raiding progression, tuned for people who have the best gear from raiding. No more progression at that point, no drops, well maybe a one time gold bounty for getting the achievement, but it shouldnt be another faucet.
There could also be solo scripted raids, where there is a raid like activity happening, but friendly ai is handling most of it, you just need to handle your role. This opens up alot more variety in solo challenges than just circle strafing for half an hour, or occasionally healing yourself while face tanking.
Why should the transparent stat be effective at all in other content?
One of the things you’re forgetting is that higher tier gear is going to have higher stats then lower tiered gear. The base power of the gear is going to be higher, and power chips are going to be higher. This means that a player who has acquired higher tiered gear is going to enter the other content with higher stats than somebody without the higher tiered gear.
Also Raiders would have a hissy fit... if a Soloer could enter Raid territory, and be able to use the Solo specific gear modifier. So how I read this is;
Raiders should be able to enter Solo territory, and use their Raid specific gear modifier.
Now this leads me to the question; If solo = easy; why do you need this modifier to get through this content?
Because something else you Raiders seem to be forgetting; The purpose for these modifiers is that the content requires these modifiers; not so you can cruise through content with no challenge, nor so you can go around boasting about your gear being better than everybody else’s.
The W* Devs have stated the gear progression path for PvP.
Note; the person who quoted this did not bother to link it back to a Dev quote. I have heard this myself from the Devs but could not find the direct quote (I really hate the way W* is disseminating information.).
As for PvE Gear and Content progression; as of the last thing I have read/heard the W* Devs have not stated a Gear or Content progression path for PvE.
In fact when it comes to Raids they do not talk about them separately at all, other than to say that there are 20man and 40man Raids, and that they are separate content (When they talk about gear, difficulty, etc. of raids, they just say Raids.).
The Devs have also mentioned Eldergam Solo Instances, 5man Instances, and Small Group OW PvE(?) exists. Pretty much everything else about the Eldergame PvE has been conjecture on the part of the players; or I should say potential players, being none of us has gotten our hands on the game.
When you say something like "raids" the progression is an implied... Raiding with no progression would be dumb and pointless and ruin the game for everyone. (The vocal 1% would say end game sucks and no one would bother to finish the 150 hour levelling experience because there's nothing at the end.) They have stated that Raiding content will be tiered and the gear will improve from tier to tier. So... saying raids won't have progression would be a failed strategy for any game, regardless of other systems in the game. Raids are built on progression. It's kinda like saying that Raids also will have implied raid leaders. They don't have to say it for it to be known.
They've stated they'd like to do a solo progression as well, which actually has less powerful gear than raiding. So that a fully geared solo content player could start in on the first tier of raiding (skip dungeons), but a fully geared raider would have gear better than the solo content gear, with the exception of possibly a weapon and chest piece. Mind you that weapons are a HUGE bump in performance in every MMO, and I assume the chest piece will be equivalent to the improvement you'd get from trinkets (being that Wildstar will not have trinkets).
Not only have i been in on server firsts, i also raid led for some of them, and ill tell you right now resists are a defensive stat that in many cases is more important then hp. You come to the fight equipped however you need to in order to kill the boss. Deflect is rng based and i never said it was a good defensive stat for raids (for dps/heals). But we are not only talking about deflect, depending on the fight hp/armor and resists all have their place in high end raiding.
Again with this system if i wanted the best solo gear i could just take the item with nothing but offensive stats and rip out an offensive chip in favor of a defensive one.
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You misread the statistics. 99.5% of all RAIDING GUILDS didn't kill him. 99.5% COULD be hassled with it and couldn't clear the content. Hell something like 80% don't even make it past normal modes.
Wait wait wait, did you just say wow is soul crushingly hard throughout all raiding and there is no accessible content. This is simply not true. And the devs do want some uber hard raids as mentioned in multiple interviews. If you want gear of the level of those raids, you are going to have to work just as hard. Soul crushing is a good thing in mmos for the top end of content.
Quote where I said anything about progression at all, otherwise within Raids. It sure as hells is not in the part you did quote.
The point of this part of my post was that there is not a lot of info from the Devs; but there are a lot of assumptions amongst many of the potential players.
One of those assumptions amongst many potential players is that progression within the Eldergame “PvE” is; 5man Eldergame/Solo Instance Eldergame to 20man Eldergame to 40man Eldergame.
I have read nothing from the Devs that says this is true. If you believe this to be true then quote and link the Devs posts that confirms this.
They have already said 5mans will come before raids. I had always assumed that solo would be before 5mans, but with the dev post here, we know that's not the case as small group/solo stuff is on a different chain of progression. Most solo stuff probably will be before raids in terms of progression. But the super hard solo instances should drop good gear as well.
Could have been the way it was formatted, it looks like one thought to me... You allude to the fact that they just call Raids raids, and don't say they'll be differing in difficulty or gear. I guess you meant between 20 and 40 man? If you did, paragraphs please! (Not trying to be mean or anything, it's really hard to tell where there's a paragraph here, I usually read over the response paragraph by paragraph in a reply on lengthy posts, so I don't have to read it a billion times.)
They have specifically said that 20 man will be different from 40 man. This is so each raid can specifically be tuned for the number of players to have a different feel. The content will be completely different. Your natural progression is that it's harder to manage a raid of 40 people than it is of 20 people. So if you're talking about raiding, yes a 40 man is intrinsically harder than a 20 man to manage, but with a 40 man every player can afford to be more specialized. They're definitely separate, just don't know if there's a difficulty difference too.
I think it's somewhere in the time of the Reddit AMAA, but seriously? No, I'm not going to go find one quote which provides you with details that there's 20 man content and 40 man content that's separate. It'll take forever to find, and you know that. I do know that I have read, or saw in an interview or something with the devs that there is 20 man content and 40 man content, nothing on difficulty of the two (or at least the tuned attempted difficulty).
I would assume 40 man will be geared to be harder and give slightly better rewards as it's a lofty goal to get 40 dedicated people, and you need some way to retain them. As for 20 man, that's a much more reasonable group for someone to get together. This paragraph is speculation, though logicked speculation. Motivating raiders is hard enough, let alone motivating 40 of them if you're not considered to be any better than a 20 man group. This is what happened with WoW in that 10 mans were too common and cliquey for the good of the community. It meant a group of 7 friends could pretty much raid together, and PUG the rest, even though usually the extra 3 were never properly accepted into the raid. They then incentivized 25 man raiding with slightly easier gearing and a better chance at the higher gear level, so many of the guilds then went 25 man, which provides a healthier community, as your dps to support ratio goes up. So... speculation... if you want to call it that... Based on facts and data. I'd call it a theory and like you to refute it with actual evidence, proof, and logic.
Carbine doesn't HAVE to make 40 man harder and more rewarding than 20 man, but they SHOULD if they don't want it to slowly die out. It's a major headache and undertaking for a 40 man, much less so for 20 man (though still a headache and undertaking).
He did state that he'd like top tier solo content to drop gear that's equivalent to a starting raider (I.E. the same as dungeon gear, or maybe even better.) But he doesn't want the inverse to be true, except perhaps on a couple pieces.