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Elder Game Itemization Goals

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by CRB_Gortok, May 23, 2013.

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  1. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    I understand, i was basically just saying that your average solo content shouldn't drop high end gear just like your average group pve content (5mans) shouldn't. If you want gear that's the best for solo play, it should come from a challenge as extreme as top end raids, just designed for one person.
  2. Calahan

    Calahan Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's more likely some sort of content reward were you have to play long for. And before anyone goes to flame me... its just a speculation, not an opinion.
  3. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Yah, I'd agree, but you still want that one or two piece advantage of someone who's finished the extreme solo challenge, so that Raiders don't just have dungeon>raid, then they go to do solo content that they've heard is so awesome, and it just rolls over, and then they don't get ANY reward at the end. I don't think a whole new armor set is necessary, but it'd be nice to be able to say "Oh hey, that's awesome I got a new sword that I can use when I'm doing solo content." When it's over. Or in order to somewhat make the solo content progressive for raiders as well, you could have it so that the content expects a certain weapon when you've gotten through certain fights. This means you aren't arbitrarily gating content due to a linear questline, but letting players try more challenging content for better rewards, in that, they can go attempt a gruelling boss fight, but can't complete it because they have to go finish the previous expected "tier" of content, but at the same time each tier has a couple different directions you could go.

    Just a thought on it to make it not completely useless and boring for raiders if they're not interested in the story. Players want to feel rewarded.
  4. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Not if they want meaningful progression that's interesting (which they've alluded to wanting). This isn't flaming you, it's a counterpoint to your speculation. If it's just mindless and grindy and it's just an endurance thing, that's not fun, because it's mindless and grindy, you might as well go back to work and earn money for doing something mindless and grindy. If it's legitimately challenging at a personal level, and interesting and you have to learn to play better through it, length is only nice because the content's enjoyable, not because you want something to keep everyone from having the end gear. Players should be motivated to play the content because the content is awesome and beating it makes them feel accomplished, not because the piece of gear at the end is awesome, and they want that. Grindy mindless content doesn't produce better players either, which is what Carbine's insistent on doing, which is good. Better players closes gaps and makes more players get real enjoyment from self achievement, instead of being handed rewards for something that's expected.

    So... if you're claiming it's speculation... You're wrong on multiple counts. You're basing your speculation on every other game, not from what the Carbine devs have said they want to make or what they're attempting to do.
  5. Calahan

    Calahan Cupcake-About-Town

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    I can ensure you, that many raiders who like to play other content, don't aspect better gear there. It is most unlikely, that they will keep an item, because it's slightly better for solo content. They will look at it, don't care and vendor it.
  6. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    Agree with pretty much everything here. As a raider i would love to have the type of content ive been describing out of raids and want a reward for it at the end.

    My initial jump reaction in the thread was to the idea of easy but grindy content giving raid level gear. If they actually make it hard, they can put in pretty much whatever rewards they want.
  7. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    It's not expected BECAUSE IT HASN'T BEEN DONE! This doesn't mean it can't be done, or shouldn't be. Successful virtual reality hasn't been done, neither has true quantum computing, neither have a lot of things. Doesn't mean you just say "Oh, well... no one's figured it out yet, why should we try?"

    Why not shake up the norm and give those raiders that want to do the content a little reward at the end, that they'll be like. "Hey, cool a new weapon, sure I won't use it for raiding, but it doesn't take up my entire inventory and helps me when I'm playing this fun solo content? Neat!"
  8. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    That's because only grindy long content has been done in other games. If they're able to break away from this and make really cool fights and interesting content that's challenging. Another cool thing comes from this... Statistics.

    Who cares it's math right? Wrong! What if solo content became the proving grounds for basic mechanic ideas for raids. They say "Oh hey this seems like it might be fun and challenging, but it's kinda weird, let's see how our solo players take it." 98% of the solo players fall on their face trying to do it and fail... hard! So they toss it into raiding as part of a boss's mechanics.

    Basically more hard content means a better player base, which means a better game overall. But basically glad some of the people who were completely on the other side have swung around to thinking how it benefits the game overall, and doesn't hurt raiding. As long as Carbine keeps it challenging and meaningful!
  9. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    sorry if its been said in all the posts, but wouldnt that be exactly the same reward as for the solo player? one that wouldnt be used for raiding but helps with solo content?
  10. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Why yes, it would, which is a good thing. It's not a separate reward for the raider, it's the same. This means the solo player still can have progression that's fun for them and give them meaningful rewards. The point is that it also would need to reward the raider who generally isn't getting gear from the solo content, as the other stuff would just be less useful than the already equipped items. That's the point I've been trying to make, that if there's content that's fun and rewarding outside of raiding, it means raiders will have something else to do in the game that isn't just dull dailies.

    They'll be able to play solo content and get some rewards from it relevant to that game-play as well as some extra coin that they can put into raiding. This is especially important if there's crafting recipes bought by doing solo content (which there is). It means the raiders can supplement their income with gear they can craft if they choose, so then they can buy materials for raiding. As long as it doesn't start to get too grindy, and force raiders to do multiple facets of the game, but benefits them if they like doing those facets. You could also craft gear through resource gathering (which some like to do) or auction house game (which others like to do).

    A major issue is gear management, no one wants to carry around one set of gear for 3 types of gameplay, but if you just have to swap out your weapon, it becomes much more reasonable, as the weapon will give a fresh look to your character and only take up one slot in your inventory.
  11. Calahan

    Calahan Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's a speculation based on...

    ...and the fact they are needing repeatable elder content for solo players too.

    This must no mindless grind., but it is possible that you have to repeat your ideas of solo content for a while.
  12. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Fair enough, but it really depends on how they implement it, it could be that it's repeated after a month or so, but they could just release new content by then. JG said they'd like to release new content every month, if not sooner. I believe he was speaking specifically on solo content (can't recall) for this as raiding he spoke on later, and it sounded like a separate release schedule. I'm hoping that they allow for you to repeat content that you want to repeat (like a fun/challenging instance) but not force you to repeat any content directly. I still have my reservations that they'll have any form of forced repetition, but if they had something similar to raiding where you had a weekly lockout on things that directly dropped gear that'd be fine. But it could be that these reputations aren't your traditional grinds, but instead you earn it through the progression of the solo content.

    He also stated that they don't know the release times between raid tiers, because they don't know how long it will take to tune raids for the hardcore crowd, but they'd like it similar. (This was somewhere in the MMORPG forum Q&A they had.) The raid bit was separate from my argument, just thought I'd inform specifics for completeness.
  13. Dagron

    Dagron Cupcake

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    Yes it has. Multiple specs, button layouts and pvp gear: people hate juggling it all. If solo content needs different gear than raid content, I guess I need to roll an alt for soloing.

    Try this on for size, disable all gear bonuses in these solo challenges and balance the challenge around that level of gear. clean and simple, when players say they beat such and such, it is an equivalent experience. (well... and remove all buffs and pots, racial bonuses would have to be weighed, any sort of "datachron" like bonuses would need to be disabled too etc)

    Still, save me from having to manage a second set of gear, and people who have only solod skipping all progression content to an end game raid to flop about like a fish out of water and I have no complaints.
  14. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Only one of the two paths SHOULD be needed for progression. To say that you max out the Solo path so you should then max out the raider path too is no different than saying that you're maxed out as an Exile Spellslinger raider so you need to max out a Dominion Warrior raid character too. Maybe some people are into that sort of thing, maybe not. Once you've maxed out a solo path character there should be no tangible reward to playing raiding at all. If you want to, you can, but you should never be pushed into it by game mechanics. They can have achievements, little purely optional things that say "Yay, you've maxed out the solo game!" and "Yay! You've maxed out the Raid game!" But there shouldn't be tangibles like unique loot involved in that.

    I really think there are two good ways to resolve this. The first would be to give solo gear the opposing system to what we've been discussing for raids. Instead of giving solo players the "vanilla" endgame gear, and then giving raiders that vanilla gear plus a "raid stat" that only applies to raids, also give solo gear a "solo stat" that functions exactly the same, but separately, in solo content. That way, if a raider tried to run the top tier solo content in their oh so fancy raider peak gear, it would be as difficult as if a solo-maxed player were trying to run the peak raid in their solo gear.

    Alternately, use true stat-scaling in the game, so that the difficulty of the bosses scales based on your gear, so if T3 raid gear gives you 25% higher stat bonuses than T1 raid gear, and a certain content is designed around players with T1 raid gear, but you enter wearing T3 gear, then all the content is buffed up by 22% or so, not quite making them equal to T3 content, but making them difficult enough that they should still be challenging.

    I think discussion of the game would be a lot more realistic if we could move past the idea that that situation actually happens.

    Then I don't think you understand what that word means. "Elitist" doesn't mean that you consider yourself to be among the best, it means that you consider yourself better than everyone else. If you believe that a lot more people belong amongst "the best," that is not an elitist position to hold.Elitism is about being exclusionary, not inclusionary.

    The problem is that players should not be encouraged to do things that they do not enjoy to get rewards that they want. This is a game, players should do the activities that they ENJOY doing, and should be rewarded for doing so. Players that enjoy the time they spend in game play longer than those who do not.

    Plenty of solo players play just as long as raiders do, and even for those that come and go, they spend money while they do. Look, you may not like it, but the fact remains that from a financial standpoint, the raiders, and their opinions, represent a drop in the bucket to the game's developers. No matter what they say or do, no mater how spectacular their rage-quits, they do not actually matter to the overall success of the game.

    Only if it's purely optional and doesn't offer any tangible rewards that can't be earned elsewhere.
    Rumze likes this.
  15. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    A single piece of gear isn't really "juggling." It doesn't need completely different gear, but I'm sure the raiders would appreciate it if there was one piece at the end they got that was helpful for when the next tier of solo content was released. It's not a whole set, it's a weapon, one slot, one... It drastically changes your possibilities because your weapon is usually the source of a lot of the power from a player, but it's still only one piece. I'll say it again if you didn't catch it the 5 or 6 other posts I put on this page... ONE PIECE. Or possibly 2, but that's it, not a whole set. One!

    Also, no, meaningful challenging dev created solo content with progression has not been created for an MMORPG. Actually it has, but it's only through legendary quest chains, which is... raiding... Also, apparently there was one for a hunter bow in vanilla WoW.

    I'm fine with the majority of the solo gear being just lesser versions of raiding gear, raiders don't need to have solo content as a challenge, but I think there should be a weapon at the end of it that's different from raiding that's simply better for solo content. This gives a little reward to raiders. Again... one piece. Then you don't have to worry about breaking boss mechanics due to normalizing gear, or making raiders feel like "well... I coulda done that if it were my old rotation." I'm down for normalizing too though, just think one piece of gear is a simpler approach. Sure it happens to be your most powerful piece of gear (usually) but it'd be an easy solution.

    I appreciate the fact that managing 3 sets of gear for one character (or 6+ depending on the number of roles you decide to play) is a big problem. That's why I'll say it again. One piece of gear. That keeps raiding gear feeling epic, automatically balances solo gear to be worse than it, allows solo gear to not learn how to play a class "wrong" for raiding, yet give them options. It's easier on the stat balancing by a lot, raiders still maintain an edge in both raiding and solo content, until you get to the end where it's helpful to have that ONE piece.
  16. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

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    If that's you opinion that's fine, If you showed up to a progression fight in my guild in tank gear you would be benched (an alt/fun/casual run yeah whatever knock yourself out).
    I understand your concern that potentially progression raiders could early in the tier be 'cheating' by grinding solo gear to fill the gaps (if the math worked out I now I would).
    I still think that by correctly balancing the gear to make in non optimal and limiting BSTs you can have three streams of gear without giving everyone their special snowflake stat.
  17. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yeah, one piece, got it, but it's still something that they wouldn't have unless they ran the solo content, which they might not want to do. Just as solo players should not have to run raid content to get all the gear, raid players should not have to run solo content to get all their gear.

    It wouldn't have to be. The developers could actually make it effortless if they chose to. In GW2 they have a system called "town clothes" in which you can with a single button press change your appearance over to a full alternate set of clothing that offers no stat bonuses and is purely for looks. This system mostly sucks due to implementation, but it doesn't have to.

    With the type of gearing we've been discussing, it would be great if Carbine implemented a "load out" system, in which you could have three or more "loadouts," full paper-dolls worth of gearing that you could keep full at any given time. Any slots you leave open in one loadout you would use the gear from the previous load-out to fill it, so if you had a full set of Solo gear but only half a set of Raid gear then switching to raid mode would sap out the raid pieces while retaining the solo pieces you have no counterparts for.

    They could make switching loadouts something you could do whenever out of combat, or maybe if that became an issue you could have to be in town/house to do it, but in either case it would allow you to easily store and switch between a solo loadout, a raid loadout, and a PvP loadout if you wished.
  18. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    He kept insisting that you had to manage a whole set, I was trying to point out that it'd be one piece... Which I've stated before.



    It could be implemented that way, but you still have to manage 3 sets of armor. That's not simply making sure you have the right gear on, but also that you have to change chips in it, and make sure everything's up to speed and properly balanced to output your best performance for each armor set. Also, it could get complicated and annoying (for players, software side these are solvable problems with a couple different solutions) if you're using the same piece of armor for 2 or more of those sets. Here's the deal though, would you really notice if your solo gear had the same as raiding gear on 90 percent of them, and 2 pieces were drastically balanced the other way in order to make the overall set lean toward helping you with solo specific things. I really don't see a problem with this as long as those 2 pieces already had 20-30% of your overall stats on them anyway.

    For instance in WoW if you were given the option to upgrade all your items except your trinkets and weapons, or upgrade just your weapons and trinkets, which would you pick (assuming no armor sets involved)? I'd pick weapon and trinkets, because those cause the most drastic changes in your performance, with the exception (possibly) of set bonuses, and sometimes even that doesn't outweigh sheer stats.

    See, i don't think this is necessary, because players would be fine with their gear being "generally the same as raiding's build except your epic weapon and chest piece which make you a soloer" but slightly worse, but ONLY under these stipulations:
    A. Top end solo content is hard, like really hard, like you spend hours screaming at your monitor because you don't know how you mis-stepped on the easy part of the fight after mastering the hard part on one boss fight.
    B. After those hours of screaming at your monitor you got a reward, like a big reward, one that made you feel awesome and epic, and amazing.
    C. Raiding was 3 times harder and the gear only let them pump out 8-10% more DPS at the end of it.

    Raiding should be made for an exclusive club that's amazing players, but if you're going to make it exclusive, make it "I'm going to slit my wrist if we wipe on this boss 1000 more times... We've been progressing on boss 1 for weeks now..." And then they slit their wrist. That should be an average day in raiding. Make it so that only true raiders want to do it. But at the same time make it so that those players do shine a little brighter. I doubt soloers would care about it at all, because they simply aren't masochistic enough.

    Everyone wants a challenge and everyone wants a reward that's a little cooler than everyone else. But raiders need to be those snowflakes, because they're egotists. They are the elitists, but they put themselves through hell to be that. Carbine wants raiding to be exclusive, make it super exclusive. Those players that do raiding shouldn't have the option to say "Raiding's too hard" because they've spent too much time on the forums saying how easy Solo content is and will be. They should be forced into ultra hard gruelling situations. Wildstar's already going to have 40 man raiding, why not tack on additional challenge? And for any raider who doesn't want this but wants soloers to have less rewards, got two words "Pony Up."

    Then you have those who play 2 roles in raiding and PvP so you're talking 5 loadouts, then you're talking another loadout if that same player is doing small group content which is considered in the "solo" gear so that's 6 loadouts. It doesn't matter if you have loadouts or not, you're still caring for 6 gear sets, and having to decide if this one chip is better in your solo caster role or your raid caster role because you still have a dungeon slotted item in that place. Not to mention you'd have to carry around enough chips for any piece of gear you gained, swap them out for raiding or pvp or solo content (well maybe not pvp, because it's instanced... so that's a different thing, you could just buy a piece of gear than customize it out between matches.) The point is caring for 6 armor sets is crazy, so is caring for 3. I think 2 pieces or 1 piece with the remaining being lesser versions of raid gear but better than dungeon gear at the top of the solo content would be good. The gear could have similar stats as dungeon gear but give a lessened version of the set bonuses from the raid gear for instance, but the last 2 pieces make you a survivalist and a cool soloer's proc.
  19. Miatog

    Miatog Cupcake-About-Town

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    TSW has a full loadout system in game. Click a button and your skills and gear change just like that. TSW it's more important you can change your skills cause it's classless and you can learn every move in the game, but from what I hear of W* combat, it might still be helpful here. Set it up to where you have 3 sets of gear that uses up no inventory space, or just let us click a button to change everything, and I could be happy.

    But honestly, I still hate the idea of needing a separate set of gear for solo and raids. Why? What's the point in that? Why can't I just run around in my raid gear? Doesn't this also mean that I have less ability to show off the gear I got in raids? "Hey look! I'm decked out in full BiS gear! Oh wait I want to go do some solo content, poof there goes my awesome gear while I run around in solo gear." This honestly makes zero sense to me.
  20. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I drew a graph to show what I was trying to say from above, based on Reward vs Difficulty Curves. It may help it may not...
    [​IMG]
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