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Elder Game Itemization Goals

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by CRB_Gortok, May 23, 2013.

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  1. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Why is this a problem? (i personally don't see it)
    They spend alot of time in arena's and Warplots, let them have that advantage!
    This is kinda the reason behond the whole PvP realm, if people don't want to get killed then go to a PvE realm. If they want to be able to fight back, level up faster then you do normally and go get that gear to get revenge!

    Again i don't see a problem at all.....isn't that what OWPvP is? Being able to get attacked or attack those that are in a huge disadvantage? It's fair! Why is it fair? Because it can happen to you (the ganker) aswell!
    Being able to deal with monsters and players at the same time is the whole reason I pick PvP servers, it adds much more depth to just ''rush to a monster and don't care for your surroundings''.

    So for the third time....i (personally) don't really see a problem with this....but that can be just my thoughts about it.
    You're ofcourse entitled to your own opinion :up:
  2. Thordran

    Thordran Cupcake-About-Town

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    Designing gear that would be more beneificial to soloing over what you would use in say raiding or PvP seems like a challenge unless you're willing to do a few things on "solo" gear that would not necessarily be balanced all that well for the raids/PvP.

    Things that would typically help me soloing would depend upon my role. If I'm geared up to tank a raid, and specced up to do that, then killing things quickly would be a challenge for me. Star Wars: TOR solves this problem somewhat by giving you different types of pets (companions). Content is tuned assuming that you have a companion out. I run tank while solo and use a DPS companion to help burn down mobs. To fight harder things, I grab a healer pet and can solo quite a bit. Takes forever, but it's possible. You can't use your companion pets during group content for the most part, so in a raid setting, the problem of having OP pets fixes itself and you're back to what you're geared/specced for.

    I'm not sure how to do duplicate this on gear that won't cause balancing issues. If I'm playing tank in solo content, and my gear can give me say lifesteal (to duplicate heals), or some kind of overcharge proc to increase DPS, what's to say that this won't be desireable in some way for a raid to boost survivability or threat?

    It seems to me that Raid gear may have to be designed towards improving your effectiveness through some sort of stat mechanic to make you more effective at your role. As a main tank in a raid, it will probably mean that you are maxed out in skills/talents/gear to mitigate damage and hold threat. Raid gear should probably stat towards these things more heavily than solo gear, so that solo gear isn't quite as heavily specialized?

    PvP gear seems easier to deal with by adding stat weight to player damage/defense type things. It'll be less efficient for the other roles naturally assuming the same stat budget.
  3. Haoli

    Haoli Cupcake-About-Town

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    Hm, I think the best thing to do here would be to make a list of implementable 'solo' stats that would be great for soloists but not the best for grouping (while still making it viable to go from solo to grouper).

    Here's a couple ideas:

    x% increased damage/healing for Y seconds on killing blow <possibly stacking buff?> (automatically dilutes effectiveness in any group content, but great for solo)
    x% increased damage if you have highest threat on target (balance for tanks, somehow?)
    x% increased movement speed when out of combat
    x% increased experience gain (for level 60 solo gear, assuming Elder Advancement is an AA-system like i think it is)
    -Self-regeneration stat?
    -Stat bonuses that only work in parties 3 people or smaller, or solo, to allow for impromptu grouping for quests?

    -Make solo gear an automatic 20% tank/80% dps stat split (ala The Secret World green gear, intended for soloists).


    That's everything I can come up with at the moment.
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  4. BonusStage

    BonusStage Well-Known Cupcake

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    Have you explored options where Raid/PvP gear synergizes while on big groups grating the raid members specific bonus to not only you? so people would only get the bonuses while wearing similar gear, anyone using solo gear would not benefit from this.
    this might be hard to balance, but it's one of the few options i could think off.

    or maybe have solo gear be all around gear that has a balance betwen damage and survivability, while raid gear is more focused towards a specific role.
  5. UNDERZZZZZ

    UNDERZZZZZ Cupcake-About-Town

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    Is this limited to crafting materials/recipes as a means of progression through crafting only? Obviously because the same system with items pretty much devalues any previous content in the same level bracket. Something I was hoping not to see in W*
  6. hopscotch

    hopscotch Cupcake

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    An item could have its ilvl decreased while you are attempting content the item isn't designed for.

    Raid items could lose 10 ilvl while you are attempting solo content.
    Solo items could lose 10 ilvl while you are attempting raid content

    You could also have a debuff on the player when his ilvl is getting affected.
  7. Sawpaw

    Sawpaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    Totally agree, I think it is madness to make solo player gear be the best for open world solo play, raid gear should be the best PVE gear for all types of PVE. For one, the incentive to raid will drop as no longer will the rewards from it seem as appealing, as raid gear will only be optimal for raids, kinda reminds me of GW2's agony BS all over again.

    For me, part of the reason for raiding is to get the best gear that I can, and then use it to go grind rep and gold more quickly out in the open world. I do not want 2 different PVE sets of gear for this, carrying the 2 sets of PVE and PVP gear is already enough, without adding a 3rd set, its overkill.

    If there is to be solo progression gear it should not be better than raid gear in any situation. Make it a very nice set of gear and difficult to obtain, that's fine, but making it better than raid gear I think will be a HUGE mistake. Filling 40 man raids is not going to be easy as it is, there are a lot of people that only raid because they want the gear to then use in the open world, not because they love raiding. So if you take that reason away, suddenly you do not have so many raiders in your game.

    I'm certainly getting mixed messages from Carbine right now, one minute they say they are for the 1%ers and that they are elitists, and the next they pull a move like this, which I can only see as catering more to the casuals. I also get the feeling this is all about money, by trying to cover all bases, shame on you.
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  8. Jojin

    Jojin Cupcake-About-Town

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    I would rather see items designed around what a particular play style is instead of where they are.

    The ideas of making gear more well rounded for solo play and more focused for raid were good ones. It goes to the concept some games used by having a companion to fulfill what you were lacking. With Wildstar we already are given two possible roles for each glass and access to all the skills. This means we wouldn't need a secondary entity to assist as we could just adjust our skills. So we only need to have more balanced equipment.
  9. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    So, if you better balance the gear to give players who don't specialize in Warplots (as they'll give the best gear, better than Arenas), then it makes OWPVP more meaningful and not a gank fest. I'm not saying ganking won't happen still, and I don't mind ganking in general. But I think if you can outplay the other player with skill, but don't have a warparty, that shouldn't gimp you. PVP is most fun when it relies on skill, and not entirely on "Well... I coulda beat him if I had the gear." Because if you have too large a gap between the three elder content, it promotes running away, which is detrimental to OWPVP. Basically, if you like instanced PVP, that's great, go do your thing, you should have an edge there, but OWPVP should be relatively balanced for everyone.

    Basically, the difference between a fully geared PVP player and a fresh max level should basically allow the fully geared PVP player a significant advantage and almost never lose. But a fully geared PVP player versus a fully geared Solo content player should be a close fight in the world. This is because the solo content players still will be doing a mix of PVE and PVP on a PVP server (or if flagged). So, it's unfair to automatically give an edge to an instanced player instead of one that does the content in the world. Also, it gives an incentive for players to be in instances instead of doing combat in the open world. If it's truly a game of "play the way you want to play" Solo content gear should be relatively balanced, so they can hold their own in a one on one in the open world.

    You really aren't bothered when someone happens to have somewhat better gear than you and simply wins because of that? (This of course could be a non-issue due to skill shots and such though, and just be a problem I'm perceiving.)
  10. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    My answer on that Gortok, would be what stats aid the player in solo play.

    (didn't read the rest of the suggestions so just going to mention what comes to mind)


    For example, something that increases resources generation or your defensive abilities, while for tank spec a more offensive piece with minor defensive additions.

    For raids people think in pure min-maxing, for PvP people will stack the PvP stats as currently seen in WoW. So the addition of defensive stats will not help there so no risk of having people stack those in either.

    Beyond that i would look into "set bonuses" things that give you health regen, mana regen. I'm unfamilar due to not being part of the beta of how much downtime there is in between fights. If it's significant enough having passive regeneration bonuses to those gear pieces will aid.
    Again if the PvP bonus stats are good enough nobody will sacrifice those stats for regen.

    Another would be set bonuses that proc on kills rather than attacks, as we know for raids we favor on attacks as really we are not going to optimize gear for trash but for bosses. So a set bonus of "each kill grants you 1% tech, brutality, moxie,..." and so forth.

    You speak about open world, if there's something like capture points PvE wise, another perk added to the gear that increases the rate of capture, another would be rate of drops 'magic find' 'gold find', increased resources etc.

    For not upping stats too much each time solo games come out, i assume each solo end story has their main theme, you could create sets with resistance/ extra offensive power against certain mob types, making it more useful for them giving them something to progress for rather than just a different looking set.


    In short for me the safest path to ensure progress is to keep it behind what you see fair as entry level to raids if you believe that the gate mechanic has to be the top 5 man dungeons you have to keep it a bit below that but that's up to you to decide as i have no view on your difficulty setting of solo play so cannot give any note worthy suggestion on that.

    But to repeat on my point the safest path is to give bonuses that are perks in solo play and not directly related to combat per se.

    But plenty of ways to go about it without making it spill over in raids or PvP :)
  11. nomotog

    nomotog Cupcake-About-Town

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    The pet idea is neat, but it feels too gimmicky to be a core method of advancement.
  12. Honour

    Honour Cupcake

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    I like this idea. If you made it so that the best gear from one area was say a tier down from the best in another, you'd still be rewarded for using the correct type, but it wouldn't be a complete shutout for people that want to dabble in all three.
  13. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    So... they're not trying to make Solo gear "better" just different. For instance, as a soloer you will take waaaay more damage than in raiding, due to not having a tank. Would a raider care if the solo content players get a piece of gear that gives them the possibility to do 10 - 20% less dps than a fully geared dps raider, but give them 30-40% better survivability? Probably not. Similarly tanks would have 100% more survivability in raid gear, but do 30-40% less damage.

    Things like this. You can have the amounts of stats be similar (in total) but the performance decreased with an increase to survivability stats. So, if a fully geared solo player decides to start raiding for instance, they'll have basically the same performance as a raider at the start of a current tier, but be much more beefy. This way they still need to get a set of raiding gear, but don't need to go through the first tier of raiding. This is helpful to raids, especially with 40 man, due to the need for many, better geared players.

    At the same time, if a raider decides to do the current tier of solo content, it will still be challenging and legitimate content, instead of just a joke, due to their low survivability and high dps.
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  14. Sawpaw

    Sawpaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    No, Gortok says quite clearly BETTER for solo play.

  15. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Yes... it would be better for solo play. Why would you want raiders to negate content, simply because they've done completely unrelated content? It wouldn't be better for raiding though.

    Edit: I missed the bit in your post where you think raiders should be allowed to do this, sorry. I don't know why though. Why make a game that you can auto-win all content if you play it a certain way? That seems to force people towards raiding if they want to be good, which is what Carbine's trying not to do.

    Also, raiders who just want it for the gear, tend to cause the most trouble in raid groups. As long as there's enough raiders to fill all raid groups, it doesn't matter how much of the population is actually raiding. It also means the entry to raiding becomes more accessible, so recruiting new raiders becomes easier, because they're doing it because they want to get better at the game. Not just because they want bosses to fall over and get carried to better gear, so they can prove to their friends that they were carried through harder content than their friends.
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  16. Drunkatm

    Drunkatm New Cupcake

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    Personally i think the best idea is for solo play to have a more balanced gear set. The raid gear should be role specific, because that is how raids are designed. With solo play you are your own trinity. 5 man play you get a little more role specific but hybrid style works here.

    The other thing is ya solo gear isnt the best in slot for a raid, but if your gloves just havent dropped after 100 runs, ya dont want to still run around with that quest gear from the last zone u was in. So u go get the gloves from solo, they not the best, but work a lot better then other options.

    If you are a dps raider and you go start to do some solo stuff, i think your raid gear should be good enough to clear that with out to much a problem. Ya cant run raiders out of the solo and small group just cause they good at what they do with big groups. Skill is alot more then just how fast can i click my ability button. strat, character build, player coordination, reaction time, all that plays into it as well.

    I like all the options, might make min/maxers crazy, but the amount of choices and different ways to build a char is a good thing! as long as your build is effective the way you play.
  17. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Well here our opinions differ like the Dominon VS the Exiles (gonna rofl if you are going to be Exile :p).
    I think instanced PvP should be more about skills then about gear! OWPvP however shouldn't be as balanced as instanced PvP.
    Why? The rewards in instanced PvP are far greater then in OWPvP therefore skill should make the difference and not gear! (i want to see little stat differences between gear from BG/arena/warplots not as big as in other games).
    OWPvP has relative no to low rewards and therefore i wouldn't mind it being more unbalanced then in instanced PvP.

    And if they do increase the rewards in OWPvP, then people will just try find weak/low level players and it will become an even greater ''gank the lowbies/newbies fest''.
    Oke, i rather see a middle way:
    Quests in Solo content will give you not 1 reward (for example 1 chest) but it gives you the option to choose between 2 (almost the same) chest pieces. However 1 has more PvE oriented stats and the other chest piece has more PvP oriented stats. Then people can chose themselves, and it's great to make a start in either PvP or PvE

    Since you pick the PvE stats if you want to raid at some time
    And you pick the PvP stat chest if you want to enter instanced PvP at some time.
    And you can pick some hybird form (looks of the gear are the same only the stats are different), if you want to keep doing solo content.

    How's that?

    But that's only if the time investement would be great aswell (i explain this in the 3rd part below).
    I wouldn't be bothered no, mayby if they camp my corpse (as far as that is possible in WildStar), but not if they just kill me from time to time.
    They have spend mayby hours/days/weeks to get that gear, so i don't really mind it.
    But ofcourse if the solo content should take an even amount of time to gather the gear, then i agree the gear can be ''boosted'' a bit to be able to take some PvP'ers down aswell. But if solo content is somewhat easier or less time consumming to get gear then in PvP (i sence Warplots will take some time), then i don't mind PvP'ers owning others.

    And indeed i think thanks to skill shot, skill dodges etc. You already have a way lower difference then in some other games, for example WoW. In WoW the difference was big, but thanks to the skills shots/ dodges i think that difference would already brought down alot
  18. Sawpaw

    Sawpaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    Ok no prob.
  19. cirk

    cirk Cupcake

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    I really do not like the idea of splitting end game gear into different specializations depending on content. It is extremely hard to keep up with gear progression if you have to maintain different sets. And it is disheartening to perform poorly because a significant part of your efforts went into gear that is completely useless. So players start to focus on a single type of gameplay to keep up with progression and the community gets fragmented. Own community-sites , they don't talk to each other, they don't play with each other and when the game forces them to interact everybody hates it. But I can see why game developers have to do it. I am surprised however that wildstar is going even further by adding separate solo gear.

    On the other hand. What would be an example of content aimed at solo players, that has a comparable difficulty to endgame raiding and high ranked pvp? Is it going to be a massiv grind to keep gear progression at a similar rate to the other two specs or will it be a skill check that takes different time to complete depending on the player? How will it be balanced if you have only one class? pvp metagame is balancing itself and the composition of a raid group is essentially always the same. But how do you balance content if the player could be ranged or not. Maybe he can heal or stun or cc etc. Maybe he has stealth? Anyone remember the solo questline for the dragonwrath legendary in wow? The quest line was only available for ranged casters but still some classes were struggling and others were steamrolling the quests. For now the only balanced things I can think of, that doesn't require the quest to be tweaked for every class, are a dps check and a jumping puzzle..
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  20. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    So, before my rebuttle, you seem to be ignoring that solo elder game is a legitimate thing in Wildstar. In all other MMORPG's I've seen, the solo play ends at end game, and then you pick PVE or PVP to continue down. With Wildstar you will get to max level and then have to choose between group PVE, instanced PVP or the world. This is what I'm basing my argument off of, that solo players are the ones that make up the world content that's there. It doesn't necessarily mean you're always going to be playing alone, simply that you sort of lone wolf it, and get into whatever seems fun, and don't follow a pack. Sure a lot of the game play will be on your own, but you may group up for an OWPVP thing going on or something.

    I'd also like to say I see where you're coming from, but somewhat disagree on some minor points.

    Also, that this potential solution is only viable for PVP server rule sets.

    Ok, so this is actually very close to what I've suggested, so I think we're mainly in agreement here. If instanced PVP rewards are not much different between tiers of gear, then the same will be true when it's OWPVP. Sure the player who's fully geared in instanced PVP will have an edge on the fully geared solo content player, but it doesn't mean auto-win.

    In fact, by your standards, those who dwell only in the world should have an edge in world combat of all types, but I won't argue that point. Simply that top geared players should be able to have a competitive chance against any other top geared player in the world. The only reason players turn into rabbits in PVP is because they don't stand a chance, I'm saying reduce this so the PVP only players have a slight edge, but not a sure thing. They'll likely still win due to skill in the end, because of experience, but due to sheer skill, not due to gear. In the end balancing like what you've suggested in instanced play will automatically balance out in the world appropriately.[/quote]

    Ok, so this is actually very close to what I've suggested, so I think we're mainly in agreement here. If instanced PVP rewards are not much different between tiers of gear, then the same will be true when it's OWPVP. Sure the player who's fully geared in instanced PVP will have an edge on the fully geared solo content player, but it doesn't mean auto-win. I pretty much agree though.

    Your last sentence works conversely as an argument as well, in that solo players mucking about in every zone can also come to the aid of newbies and lowbies, and even do the whole mentoring thing with them to play along side them. This does two things, first make longer lasting OWPVP, because more players are in the area, second it helps protect lowbies from ganks, but it ONLY works if the solo content players have decent enough gear to stand a chance against the ganker. If they don't, they'll simply run away and let the lowbie fall victim. So I tend to disagree with this statement.

    I generally like that idea, but maybe have it so that all the schematics dropped are balanced, and chips you can get out of it are all balanced between PVP and PVE stats. (This is assuming only a PVP realm of course...) The solo content gearing should be similar to that of Raiding, in that you may have to try a very long time before your gear is perfectly optimized. Some may come from quest givers, some won't.

    I completely agree with this. As long as solo content is of equal (or similar) time and effort, the gear should be competitive for the start of either other gear type.
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