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Elder Game Itemization Goals

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by CRB_Gortok, May 23, 2013.

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  1. Ellianar

    Ellianar Cupcake-About-Town

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    Actually happy to see this. I know a lot of people will not agree with me :D this is a way to have secure items for a FEW slots, demending reputation and achievements ( i ll hazard raid bosses achievement ? :D ) and with special currency. It is not welfare stuff but secure stuff.
  2. Primalthirst

    Primalthirst Cupcake

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    I personally agree with you that there is no need for Raiding gear to be inferior to soloing gear. But we're obviously both raiders so our opinion is biased. The fact is that most players don't raid are want some form of gear progression that gives them quality gear. Ideally that gear is not so good in a raiding environment or it becomes mandatory there.

    Gortok said he was looking for crowd-sourced suggestions and I gave the one that sprang to mind. Your suggestion was that gear should be different for the task, that requires it having different stats, which is exactly what I suggested. It doesn't have to be 'Penetration' it could be Hit Rating, it could other things. It's the principle I was suggesting, not the exact example.
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  3. Jojin

    Jojin Cupcake-About-Town

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    No I am not advocating anything that is specific to the location or specific targets. I am for a play style gear type, so it could be effective in a group/raid anywhere, even in the open world.

    If you gain the gear through PvE group challenges, then it should be adjusted towards group play, working more with synergistic aspects related to other group members, and if you gain it through solo tasks it should be adjusted to accommodate solo style of play.
  4. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    That's because you don't see Solo Content as a viable end game. And currently in every MMORPG, it isn't really. It is simply the means to the end goal of instance PVP or Raiding. If solo content was an actual set of content that was as challenging, time consuming, and dedicated as Raiding, you wouldn't be saying this. But in current cases, solo content is the gimped version of all other content, which is tuned so that even the most casual unskilled player can still get through it in a reasonable amount of time.
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  5. Psistorm

    Psistorm Cupcake-About-Town

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    This is the core point that the discussion revolves around, yes. Solo gear is no longer a stepping stone. I mean in most games, 5-man dungeon gear is the direct upgrade from anything solo. So you have the progression solo -> 5 man -> raiding, next to the pvp path. In wildstar, these things will be parallel paths.
    That does raise one question though. Namely how solo PvE gear will be distinct from 5-man dungeon progression gear, IF there is a distinction. Because I think having solo/5man, pvp and raid sets different might be enough already. But this is for people to discuss, and utlimately for Gortok to decide.

    Personally I'm all in favor of some resistances coming into play along with perhaps some stats (pvp player damage bonus, and perhaps a damage stat that is relevant to raids or so). Using the same exact stats in different flavors on the different gear types strikes me as very hard to balance. They will still be different, but there should be stats that are unique to the three playstyles. Personally I think if it was the same stats but different balances, people would still find ways to use gear to get an advantage, and it might be harder to say for people which gear is intended for which playstyle.

    lastly to bring up the solo/5-man distinction again. Right now I'm assuming that heroic dungeons and solo play will have the same gear type (unless there is a fourht, or unless raid gear is a direct upgrade to dungeon gear or something, we would need clarification there). the implications are interesting,since that would possibly spell out some very hard solo content to obtain gear from. So yeah, I wonder how that case will be handled.
  6. Xo1o

    Xo1o Cupcake

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    One approach I would not advise is making raid gear very specialized (i.e. tanking gear with very low damage, DPS gear with barely any defense) and then make just solo gear be more allround. Why is that not fun I think? Because it's turning raiders into one trick ponies in the end and it creates annoying gear imbalances in open PvP (tanks don't die but can't kill anyone, DPS glass cannons either own or get owned, depending on who gets the jump on whom).

    Another approach that's not so cool: GW2 has introduced a damage type you can only find in their "endgame" dungeon Fractals of the Mist and to succeed at higher levels of this dungeon you need resistance to this damage type. This isn't fun either IMO, because it frankly feels stupid to "advance" in such a system that makes you stronger only inside this dungeon and nowhere else in the whole game world.
  7. Jojin

    Jojin Cupcake-About-Town

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    I have mentioned appealing to the play style with the gear, but I figured I would give an example as to what exactly that might look like.

    Consider there are three (3) different aspects or roles to play: DPS, Healing and Tank. The classes we have available can fulfill two (2) of these roles.

    Thus for solo gear for an Esper (DPS/Heal) the static or proc buff would apply to self and have Tank aspects. Something like a small damage reduction. This would round out the solo player's ability to cope with any variation on a challenge they might encounter.

    For group gear for an Esper the static or proc buff would apply to party members and have DPS or Healing apsects. Now when you have multiple group members, to which the gear is designed to be most effective, the party will wind up having a few buffs from the cross over of each player in the group. Something like, when a heal is critical it triggers a healing pulse to all party members near the Esper. For a tank it might be something like when a successful block is triggered, a shield is applied to nearby members.

    Because each of the gear sets are more inline with the style of play a person might like, they aren't necessarily more powerful than each other. The items mentioned above would be supplemental to a base items design.

    Now having said I like the idea of different progression, I am still of the mind reward should be equivalent to difficulty. I don't see how solo content could ever match up with group content in regards to challenge because group content throws in so many more variables, as you have to work with other real people.
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  8. Veckna

    Veckna Well-Known Cupcake

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    I think most areas have been covered by posters already so likely this will be a summary of how I'd look at the issue.

    First I'd identify the various ways you can approach the problem:

    1. General stat balance based around the content type.

    2. Content specific buffs/stats (ones that operate solely during the relevant content).

    3. Buffs/effects focused on that style of content (but which are functional at all times).


    Also taking a very basic look at what separates the content types/tends to define them may also help:

    PvP: Typically fast paced, lots of burst/spike damage, crowd control/crowd control avoidance tends to be a large factor. Player targets (obvious I know).

    Solo: Typically short fights, agro focused on player. Variable (usually low) downtime between fights. Out of combat regen/downtime reduction generally desirable to speed up time between fights.

    Raid: Typically longer fights with players filling set roles (dps/heal/tank in it's simplest form). Group synergies/buffs have greater impact due to multiple players. Abilities that 'ramp up' more useful here than for Solo or PvP due to the longer fight times.


    Going into each of these in a bit more detail:

    General stat balance around the content type
    Probably the simplest system. Weight stats towards the relevant content.

    PvP tends to favour high health, crowd control duration reduction as well as damage done to, and taken from, players (Typical PvP stat). PvP stats make this method easy to use to make PvP gear favourable for PvP.
    Without using PvP stats you could add in bonus health or crowd control reduction (via passive reduction). I'd avoid forms of mitigation over flat health as this might favour PvE (flat health counters the threat of burst in PvP whereas gives less benefit in PvE where you tend to want damage reduction for efficiency).

    Solo content tends to favour a balance of stats, both defensive and offensive. Therefore a balance of stats making Solo gear a 'jack-of-all-trades' is desirable. Things like faster out of combat regeneration (if regen is a stat?) could also be a potential area for increasing Solo gear desirability.

    Raiding tends to favour specialisation so Raid gear will have it's stat budget much more focused for the desired role with much lower priority on 'secondary' stats. Things like resists and 'hit' stats generally have far more use in raids than in other content so are also potential areas for Raid focused gear.

    2. Content specific buffs/stats (ones that operate solely during the relevant content)
    By this I mean effects that only activate either in specific zones/instances or when players are in combat with a specific target that meets the content type requirements (I'm guessing it's possible to achieve this as SWTOR had your companion cower in fear as soon as a World Boss mob type was engaged and games have had skills with differing effects on PvP/PvE targets).

    As these effects only operate when playing the relevant content there is much more freedom to provide effects/buffs that would otherwise be desired for all content types. Random selection of examples below:

    Stat/damage/mitigation buffs, beneficial/harmful auras, damage/heal/shield recharge procs, 'active' abilities of all types (think trinkets from WoW/Rift/SWOTOR etc), lifesteal, killing blow procs, additional interrupt armour procs. The list is pretty much endless due to the restriction of the buffs/abilities being content specific (so your awesome Solo gear full heal on killing blow proc is useless for PvP or in Raids).


    3. Buffs/effects focused on that style of content (but which are functional at all times).
    These would have to be more restricted/focused due to operating all the time (and so may be used in other content types)

    PvP: Procs granting interrupt armour, crowd control 'breaks' as an active ability on gear (think PvP trinket/ability style from WoW/SWTOR etc), PvP stat increases from heals/abilities, reduced damage taken when crowd controlled, procs that only affect players, player killing blow procs.

    Solo: Killing blow procs (although may conflict with PvP gear to some extent unless limited to killing PvE targets only), leaving combat/entering combat procs (again may conflict with PvP gear). Example procs could include faster out of combat regen, shield recharge, shield amount increase, etc.
    Buffs based on being the agro focus (could add in threat reduction component to reduce desirability for tanks in groups using the item) would also be a useful area for Solo gear itemisation.
    Damage reflection effects could also be a useful Solo dps increase while typically not being too useful in PvP due to low amounts (could add a visual effect so players can avoid triggering it + short duration if not refreshed by an attack to make it almost useless in PvP, again add threat reduction component to the item to reduce/remove desirability for tanks to use for threat).

    Raid: Beneficial auras (does not affect self), ramp up abilities (ie a stacking self buff, lost on target change/death - target death may be preferable to allow player to change targets without losing debuff, ie dealing with adds during boss fight), buffs from using abilities on other players (your heals increase their damage for example), threat increase/reduction buffs, damage over time procs, 'hit' stat buffs, resist stat buffs, in combat resource recharge procs and so on.


    As mentioned at the start most of these have been covered in this thread already (yay for WSC community being pretty switched on \0/ ) but hopefully this is a reasonable summary for how I'd approach the situation with some examples. There are likely to be other methods to accomplish the same end but that's all I could think of (or plagiarise :ninja::laugh:) while keeping it focused on a traditional gear system (the pets/companion ideas were pretty neat but hardly traditional gear).
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  9. Galosha

    Galosha Cupcake

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    It's not about challenge, it's about time. If you spent 10 hours in raid and get epic sword, then why when i spend same 10 hours for solo quest line cant get some meaningfull reward that would be not worse or better than yours for solo content (but worse for group/raid).

    This is the main question of thread - how to separate them. And i have to agree if solo content would be as time consuming as group/raid/PvP content then it should have same reward progresion as them.
  10. Azhdaha

    Azhdaha Cupcake-About-Town

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    We don't know much of anything about crafting, but we can assume we'll have the usual Weapons, Armor, and Consumables professions at the very least. The idea that crafters will be able to "find their niche" makes my little heart swell with joy. I generally go for the "make potions, flasks, and/or gadgets" route, so I'm excited to see how the system would apply to me.
    For solo vs. raid gear, some good ideas have been given regarding letting the Raid-designated kits generate more threat (Tanks), generate less threat (DPS, Healers), receive more healing from Players (all), do more DPS to mobs (all), etc. As long as the solo gear would still be a viable stepping stone toward raiding, I'll be happy.
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  11. Kayelia

    Kayelia Cupcake

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    It gets worse from here. According to Gortek, "solo" gear is actually mean for both people truly soloing and small groups. This is smart in that a soloer is more likely to form 2-4 (or 5) person groups than they are 40 person groups. The problem comes from the balance of those groups. It's raw chaos.

    It only takes 3 people to form the tank/healer/dps trinity and to specialize to that effect. A 2 person party can specialize in that direction as well. A healer/dps, tank/dps, and tank/healer groups aren't out of the ordinary. Groups like dps/dps are common too. So the gear has to support all of that + a person fighting on their own while being separate from raid gear. That's a tall order.

    Many of the things I see suggested probably wouldn't work well. For example, prot on kill is not something a soloer would look at unless it's really amazing or they have no choice but to fight lots of small trash mobs. Against a boss, it's useless.

    Certain effects scale better than others. A buff that increases exponentially per person added is an example. Gear that has effects that start weak, but scale well could work as raid gear. Gear that has strong effects, but doesn't scale well could be solo/small-group gear. That could potentially work.

    Ultimately, the group this gear is for is pragmatic and will min-max. They're not that far off from raiders in that regard. They just draw different lines in the sand. What will be acceptable for them does depend upon the world they're placed in.
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  12. Celtkhan

    Celtkhan Well-Known Cupcake

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    Kay, you're exactly right. My takeaway from what Gortok was saying is that 5-man dungeons are being categorized with Solo/Small Group play, so stats that discourage grouping really don't fit the premise.

    I have two solutions.

    The first isn't a new one: make SSG gear more survivable. Solo players will generally be taking more damage without a dedicated tank/healer along, so survivability for a moderate dps loss is acceptable. The problem there is how you tune for small group play where you -will- have dedicated tank/healer roles. When I duo with my wife, one of us (or both) typically take a role that can either tank or heal. One of us rarely ever gets hit; added survivability would be worthless to that one. Further, that solo gear would be far less useful in dungeons unless there were a great deal of unavoidable AoE damage effects to kill off glass-cannon raid-gear dps. That seems to be opposite of the kind of encounters the dev team is after, though.

    My other solution isn't combat-related at all: out of combat buffs. In all the games I've played, the worst part about soloing is downtime. In most games, I prefer quick-recovery types such as Blood Death Knights and Regen scrappers. Give solo gear faster shield recharge or resource recovery out of combat. You can even incorporate it into solo play by making wave assaults that allow solo gear to top you up between fights, but will grind down raiders. It has the advantage of making raid gear sub-optimal for dungeons, but not completely worthless.
  13. Nub

    Nub Cupcake

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    Randomization is not a choice, let alone an interesting choice. In order for this item variation to lead to gameplay, the game must be tuned to place significant emphasis on each stat and the classes must offer viable distinct builds.

    In WoW, aside for the min/maxers, stats generally don't matter as long as end up with more. +50 Haste vs +50 Crit? Who cares? Additionally, a Haste Mage versus a Crit Mage end up performing about the same, both on the DPS charts and in gameplay. On the other end of the spectrum, in pen and paper D&D, one additional Stat point could drastically change the viability of a certain character or build. If your goal is to make the item system interesting, or to at least justify the very complex CBC system, stats need to have a significant impact on performance and playstyle otherwise all that shuffling will not create gameplay.

    Another big concern here is the "Hunter Weapon" syndrome. If all stats are appealing to all classes, and variation is possible between all items, all weapons, excluding class-specific items, will be desired by all players. This will result in far more competition for an item which leads to drama. Considering you guys are forcing 40 people to play together (is this 2001?) it feels like a low-drama design would be desired as the hardest part of giant raids was always the social element.
    This sounds like a noble goal, as in nearly every other raiding game out there, crafting has never been useful outside of a few minor item modifications, one or two slots of gear, and consumables.

    My only suggestion is to make sure there are crafted weapon options that are competitive with entry-level raid drops. If weapons have a massive impact on player performance (like they did in WoW and EQ), getting unlucky from raid drops can set players or entire raids behind. Giving some "grindable" option with a fairly high cost helps smooth out the bumps and make for a more even progression in the face of bad RNG.
    Achievements granting player power is risky. As long as the achievements promote interesting gameplay (see most of WoW's dungeon/raid achievements) over tedious grinding or completionism, this could be an interesting way to gate access to items.

    See the game Defiance for a really bad example of how to use achievements to grant player power. So many achievements required conflicting goals (Kill X monsters using Shotgun and Kill X monsters using sniper rifle and Win X Races) that you rarely earned any through normal play. You had to do a wide variety of things to unlock one element, which felt like pointless busy work.
    While each of these three niche's seem easy to fill, my biggest concern is how do you help the person or raid that is having trouble making significant raid progress, if the only way to improve their gear becomes killing raid bosses?

    In most other games, there are non-raid options to acquire enough player power that the introductory raid bosses being significantly easier. If the intent is for raiders to get raid gear from raiding, anyone stuck on the first couple of bosses will be brickwalled, and aside for the most hardcore (who wouldn't be stuck in the first place) they'd be most likely to just give up and play something else.
    Using your CBC system offer the same starting items available via crafting/rep/achievements.

    Let solo players discover upgrades to those items giving them a moderate increase in power. Let the raiders build on those items with the stuff they find in raids, but with higher quality item upgrades. Same starting item, different end effectiveness.

    As for PvP, you guys are walking in a design trap by making gear have a significant impact on performance. There's a reason WoW just recently moved away from heavily gear-dependent PvP -- PvPers want to win because they are skilled, not because they're geared.
  14. Kayelia

    Kayelia Cupcake

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    Wouldn't a raider have a piece or two as swap gear during downtimes? It's something I'd do. Get a buff, swap out for stronger, repeat as needed. I don't think I've ever seen a game prevent gear change while out of combat. It also seems like it'd force downtime. Why use potions, crafted consumables or path abilities to recover when the gear does it for you? Or vice versa? For me, I'd normally just use potions or self heals and last as long as I could.

    I could see it as an option among many, but it doesn't feel like a full solution.
  15. Isy

    Isy New Cupcake

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    Apologies if this has already been mentioned, IMO the main thing really needed to separate SSG gear from Raid gear would be the complete absence of any threat management stats.
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  16. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

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    I think solo gear should end up focusing on world related or solo content stats. Stuff like more path rewards/efficiency or perhaps more chance for an encounter to occur - increases chance of fun event occurring .
    Perhaps you can end up going different route with this as well so soloers can collect groups for more housing items dropping, more crafting item drops, or better path efficiency .

    Something that makes them the go to people for interacting with the world.
    What I mean by this as a new raider being recruited by an established raid team, they help support you in easier raids, till you get gear/knowledge/skills to make it to cutting edge content.
    For soloers , it could mean grouping with folks who are dedicated soloers and thus can jump start more epic world events , or unlock huge path related things like an explorer who has gear that helps him unlock really hard puzzles or settlers whose buildings go up faster. Eventually the new soloer has enough gear that he can do this on his own.
    If you don't want to collect the gear, that's fine, just go along with someone who can do it for you - much like a person who tags along with a raid team to see the content or get an item.
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  17. Jarinolde

    Jarinolde Cupcake-About-Town

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    On a more basic level, the easiest way to balance gear between the different types of content would be content specific stats (that counted toward its stat budget). This creates the problem of too many stats to track though if there are too many types of content.

    Another method would be different itemization and stat priorities for the different types of content. Maybe have your raid dps set be purely dps focused, while your solo dps set has a balance between defensive and offensive stats. The problem here is that there needs to be a wide variety of stats to allow for those differences to happen.

    Honestly though, a mixture of both would probably be best. Have a stat specific to PvP and PvE, then itemize the content types differently from there.

    EDIT:

    This would be a great idea as far as the PvE stat goes.
  18. Sawpaw

    Sawpaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    Just don't add Eldan Agony or some other raid damage ressist/reduction stat to raid gear, for some reason I bet this is one of the idea's they have in the pipeline. Personally I did not like it in GW2 but to be fair none of the other idea's I have read in this thread are any better than it. I would deffinately prefer agony on my raid gear than having to be stuck with a pet while soloing, cos I hated that in SWTOR, if i want a pet I will play a pet class (If there is one). Agony would be the lesser of 2 evils for me if this 2 sets of PVE gear thing is put into place.

    Right now I would put money on Carbine copying Arenanets Agony system, as it would be the easiest thing to do I think. If raid gear requires you to use some of your stats sockets to slot agony resist then that would make your gear less effective in the open world, and therefore you would need to build a different set to solo in an optimal manner.
  19. Crovax32

    Crovax32 New Cupcake

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    Seems easy. Health regen. Health regen would be great for soloing but terrible for Raids where bosses and monsters can tear through you too fast for health regen to even matter.

    But during solo play health regen is an awesome boon.
  20. Sawpaw

    Sawpaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    Then I would just use my raid gear to solo because I dont want health regen ever... I will just use full dps raid gear on my stalker and nuke stuff down before health regen matters. You should also think about healers, they are even less likely to need health regen as they can heal.
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