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Elder Game / Raid gear and how to not make raids mandatory for non raiders

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Fownie, Jul 31, 2013.

  1. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    You're in the right ballpark, but still off a little bit, and your 1% definition needs to be replaced with some more % because its a little higher than that.
    Interesting video, I enjoyed the speaker, he was very easy to listen to.
    Livnthedream likes this.
  2. Zyd

    Zyd Cupcake

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    Ignorance? When did i said that other possibilities don't exist? You need to stop putting words in mouth that i've not said, you're the one making assumptions here. I state what i believe and witnessed that WORKS, if there're other possibilities that currently works, please enlighten us with facts not with assumptions of what you believe other people think.
  3. Rane

    Rane Cupcake

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    I think there are alot of problems when looking at the whole solo vs raider. There are many types of raider and many types of casual and adding logic you can't make everyone happy with hiring 100's more staff. lets looks at just a few type's

    Dedicated Raiders(Progression Raiders) - most people would call them hardcore but i try to avoid the word hardcore because it has so many meanings both positive and negative.
    Casual Raiders(Progression Raiders) - they might not put in the same amount of time into raiding but they still look for a challenge and push them self's when they are raiding
    Loot Raiders(They just want everything handed 2 them) they only care about the best gear and don't care about the challenge and fun that can be hard within the raiding environment.

    Then you also have the whole debate and views on Raid Size that breaks up raiding into even more category. Eg Dedicated Raider(Progression Raiders) who enjoy doing raids with small group of friends.
    And many other types.

    And it's the same problem in the Solo Content
    Dedicated Solo(Solo Progression) Want's the same type of challenge as a raider but in a solo environment
    Casual Solo - Same as Casual Raider but in a solo aspect
    Loot Casual - ect

    then instead of raid size discussion we go into difficulty lets take the extreme view of matching solo content difficulty to match raiding difficulty let's look at some of the longest kills on bosses

    #1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
    #2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
    #3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
    #3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
    #5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from One Light in the Darkness. 7th July 2009
    #6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death. 24th April 2007
    #7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
    #8 Al'ar <Phoenix God> - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
    #9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
    #10 Heroic Al'Akir - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.


    #29 tied Heroic Anub'arak 25 - 4 days from Heroic Twin Val'kyr's death. September 6th 2009.
    #29 tied M'uru. 4 days from the opening of the second Sunwell gate. 4th May 2008

    When the top four are from vanilla. (10 of the 30) that add's in a few mistakes made by blizzard (impossible bosses) but it also adds to the fact it show's there was more challenge now before looking into this aspect lets finish the above.

    Firelands Ragnaros took 11 days and over 500 Wipes for the first kill if you matched the Time sync raiders put in to match Solo content the majority of solo players would quit and not want to do that because most people feel a few hours to kill something is more than enough time in a solo environment.

    So this explains why most raiders feel they should be given the best loot because of time sync. but what if carbine did do this for solo players so the solo boss had Insane Health (2 hour boss fight) with 20 phase's would people have a problem if the solo gear matched raid gear. Am Sure some people would because you can never balance solo vs raiding but i feel this would be the step in the right direction if you wanted to make the gear match. This part was more about how i feel rather than a suggestion of how it should be done that's carbines job to decide.
    But there is also other way's to Slow down the progress by adding in

    Kill x World boss(Rare Spawn)
    Daily/Weekly Lockout's
    Token Drops (5 Tokens per item)
    Time Runs(1 Hour time limit despawns after time)
    And a few other idea's


    Now lets take a little look at the time it took to kill bosses in vanilla. I think we all agree player skill has improved over the year's with Elite jerks,wowhead,alakazam,Guides,Addons, Ect and the time people have been playing since we know over the year's the mechanic's have improved.
    But people still look at vanilla/tbc as the golden age of raiding was it the Size,Being New for people,rose tinted glasses,

    In all honesty instead of pushing against Change (i want to be the very best) Let Carbine decide how this is done and once we know then we can discuss it well having evidence that we can look at and determine what we as a player base would work best.

    Remember every gamer is an expect at making mmo's (rolls eyes)

    I May come back and add more to this at a later time.

    Thank You - Rane
  4. Bifurcation

    Bifurcation Cupcake

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    I love it ppl bring in data.
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  5. Zyd

    Zyd Cupcake

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    I agree with this.

    I don't mind solo players or non raid players to get Endgame equivalent gear, the problem lies with what you have to do to get that gear, it has to be challenging.. but in the last years no mmo company has been able to do so, instead they tone down the endgame content or just give you chances to get the gear basically for free.

    Hopefully Carbine will make all the Elder Games to have the same amount of challenge, and that would be perfect if they can make it.
  6. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    I gather you did not read the original statement. This number was given by Jeremy as the % of players that did 40man raids, not raids in general. Also there was nothing in his statement that said this was the % that completed 40man raids. His statement was a statement saying we know how many people do this content, but we like 40man raids, so we’re going to put this content in our game anyways.

    You did not bother to give us your credentials so that we might judge your statement as something other than a player who thinks they know what the numbers are (Or in my mind, what you think they should be.). You also did not bother to give us what the “correct” % is, and why your number is more valid than a MMO Devs (I guess we’re just supposed to take your word for it.).
    What you did do is go on and tell us why that % is a bad thing; which kind of invalidates your statement about it being incorrect, and leads to the real sermon;
    so as with many soapboxes you disregard facts and twist words, so that you can go on to tell us how it should be.
  7. Calahan

    Calahan Cupcake-About-Town

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    Surely I know the statement very well. Its about those Naxx 40 and Sunwell 25 final raids in WoW vanilla and TBC. The final raids wasn't visited by 99% of the WoW community at the time the content was released and not nerfed. But this ist not because they dont want to raid, they just dont meet the necessary atunements and gear. Most people have seen this instances much later, Naxx as it was revamped for the 2nd expansion and sunwell after it got nerfed in TBC and

    I don't need to prove anything. I just question "out of the hat" statements like "65% of the players prefers playing solo" because most people I know plays solo as long there is no need to play in a group. But they still loves group content too. Doing single player quests together is NOT group content. And many modern MMOs have made very big failures designing group content. Its not surprising if the statistic says, 65% plays alone.

    If you'll get 6 of 7 days in the week soup and only one day a full meal with meat, potatoes and vegetables, you prefers by statistic soup for dinner. Should we order more soup for you?
  8. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    If you feel forced to group in a mmo, you're in the wrong genre.
  9. cBselfmonkey

    cBselfmonkey New Cupcake

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    Eh. Half-and-half.

    If the game has insisted from the get-go that solo play is valid progression, not requiring groups for questing content or needing players to run instances along the leveling arc etc..., that sets up certain expectations. Namely that you can continue to do so at endgame because hey, how many other genres of video games flip their player expectations and requirements at the finish line?

    At least Wildstar's devs are acknowledging the expectations their content will create and are looking to have them filled at endgame.
  10. Calahan

    Calahan Cupcake-About-Town

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    Nobody forces anyone to play a MMO.

    But if you like to play it, you should be forced to cooperate with other players. Players depending on each other are the soul and heart of a MMO and the foundation of a mostly friendly and cooperative community.
  11. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    I just want to make the point that a larger group can objectively have a higher skill cap then solo content. Imagine the hardest solo boss ever put in a game. It could be class quests/brawlers guild from wow, or even something outside of an mmo from dark souls/FF or any genre you want really. Multiply the boss by 40 so that hardest solo boss ever created is in 40 separate rooms designed to each be fought by one of the raid members. Finally add a mechanic where if any of the 40 copies HP differs by more then 5% the raid is instantly killed. You can do the same thing with 5/10/20 man content if you like. Just make x copies of that boss and add the one HP link mechanic. A larger raid size will always be more challenging and have a higher skill cap.

    Its not at all a matter of opinion, the larger the group size the harder the content can be.
  12. Kayelia

    Kayelia Cupcake

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    I'm not sure you actually proved that. Truthfully, I think you showed where the raid difficulty actually lies. It's not the number of players that provides difficulty. It's the assumption that all players are doing either equally well or enough/all survive the encounter. Without that assumption, there isn't a major reason why one player couldn't finish a boss another player died on. It's only a question of if the game is programmed to do that. That would reduce the difficulty of the fight, not strengthen it.

    I don't believe anyone has made an escort mission with 39 AIs with the same assumption. That would be as close as it gets. Depending upon how it's setup, the player may have to make decisions across multiple parts of the trinity as well as leadership decisions.

    Even ignoring that, you included all genres. That means games like Nethack are included. Nethack is a roguelike, but more importantly, it's turned based. Your example would have a single expert player able to guide the rest of the 39 through the game via chat. There's nothing preventing explicit instructions. Keep in mind, this is a very complex game with permadeath and many ways to die. Some of those ways are rather nasty.
  13. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    The added difficulty is that now you have to co-ordinate with the other 39 poeple to keep every bosses hp at the same level. It doesn't matter what the boss is, this is objectivity harder. You are trying to argue that x+1<x. The fact is, adding group co-ordination will never make something easier.

    Which would still be harder then doing it just 1 time. More so if each of the 40 characters had different ability's, not really familiar with the game here so i cant make any definitive statements about the game mechanics.
  14. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    You do if you’re going to call someone a liar, and that is what you are doing. They funny thing is that
    you then go on to validate the number… again
    This whole statement says that you believe the number… you just don’t like it.

    One of the things I have noted over the years is that people forget that Massive is not just about the number of people that can play, but also the amount of content that they can play.

    An MMO is a humongous virtual playground; with football/soccer fields, 4 lane tracks, baseball fields, basketball courts, tennis courts, handball courts, monkeybars, swings, slides, pools, workout courses, etc. Some of these are designed with a large group in mind. Some of these can be done in small groups but are more fun with larger groups. Some of these are designed for small groups. Some of these are designed for the individual, but can be done in parallel with others if you so choose.

    People do not routinely go into real world playgrounds and start telling everyone what they can and cannot do. Why do they think it’s alright to do so with a MMO?
  15. Kayelia

    Kayelia Cupcake

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    My point is that enforcing the coordination is where the difficulty comes from. Without that, the difficulty falls apart.

    Multiplayer content can add a lot more than just coordination. (At a minimum, higher raw power.) It's those factors that can override the difficulty coordination adds. In other words, x+1+y is not greater than x when y is negative. Also, there are mechanics, like combo abilities, that can increase power beyond the added difficulty.


    Nethack is to Diablo as Ultima Online is to World of Warcraft. They're an older game in the same genre. Procedurally generated content is one thing they both share.

    So, it wouldn't be that simple. In order to enforce your test, the 40 nethacks have to be aligned with each other. 40 different playthroughs have drastically different layouts and the rng will always be different. The odds of 40 games matching except for character abilities is very low, if not impossible. As a result, you have 40 people, each with different levels of skill, all playing in very different encounters. At that point, coordination is impossible.

    Given all of that, 1 out of 40 providing instructions on how to succeed is more effective than 39 out of 40 trying to figure out how to succeed on their own. If that wasn't true in general, people posting guides or youtube videos of bosses should not be effective.
  16. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    The hardest solo gameplay would you require you to play your class perfectly (dodge everything/do 100% optimal dps/hps/ use all defensive and utility skills at the perfect time. The hardest raids would require all 40 players to do this AND require them to coordinate. Yes if the content is badly designed/poorly tuned y will be negative but we arn't talking about easy raids here.
  17. Kayelia

    Kayelia Cupcake

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    Playing one's class at 100% in party requires coordination. Otherwise, one would be making poor class choices. Coordination doesn't apply twice. Also I have yet to see anyone claim a hard raid requires every member to fulfill all 3 parts of the holy trinity at the same time for the entire time. That's the entire point of the trinity: to split three roles among many people. That means a raider would not have to worry about everything a soloer would.

    Dodge everything? Sure, when available. If the boss uses an unavoidable blow at a tank, everyone else isn't hit. A soloer will always get hit.

    And if you want to say that you could take that solo fight and times it by 40 via that hp mechanic, don't. We both can add more and more logical loops to that until it ceases to resemble either a solo fight or a raid.
  18. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    This is where you and I disagree, there is 0 coordination involved in killing something solo. Coordination involves talking/communicating with other people. Who are you coordinating with when you are only playing with yourself.

    And i have yet to see a solo encounter designed around healing or tanking. No matter what content you are doing you only perform 1 role at a time. You cant pretend that you have to tank in a solo encounter when there is 0 aggro management and you cant pretend that you have to heal because you only have yourself to heal. Theres no getting around the fact the solo play will always be simpler.
  19. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

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    Wildstar is group-content/pvp biased.

    I don't mean that negatively. There are just to many knowns at this point to really argue about it much. War plots, forty man raids, holy trinity, I could go into more detail, but if you have been following the development of this game for a bit it does become pretty clear.

    I won't argue the merits of solo/pvp/raid-group content. I tend to agree ( as a rule of thumb ) with the people that say that most folks think their own play style is the best and should be rewarded accordingly.

    That aside Carbine has stated ( many times ) that solo game play will be there and I believe them. It's really hard to say what that will entail or if it will be enough to keep solo players happy. I do hope so.

    IMO Wildstar is not trying to reinvent the wheel. They are attempting to take what has been successful for other mmo titles and add their own style/flair. I believe they also hope to improve upon some known issues in the genre. Listen to Gaffney speak and I think most folks will agree.

    Your mileage may vary.
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  20. Calahan

    Calahan Cupcake-About-Town

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    I have never written, its a lie. I have just written, I question this statement. I am interested in which game he has found this statistic and what are this people doing after finishing level phase.

    It's not a "I don't like it"-thing. Everyone can play what he want and the way he want. But I really think, if a MMO have so high numbers of players who never group up for anything, the game is just broken and cannot success as a MMO.

    I don't tell anyone what he has to do or not... You can play every game as you like and I don't really care. But todays MMOs focus to much on single player content. You can easy level your avatar and skip any group content if its even exists because its mostly a waste of time. And every group content at endgame can be PUGed, you don't need to talk to any other player in games like WoW, GW2 or SWTOR today.

    If I am talking about forcing people to cooperate, I dont think about banish any single player content. But I think about a more challenging, rewarding and satisfying group content even in the leveling part of the game you cannot simply zerg down.

    You like single player content. That's okay. But just imagine for a small moment you could like group content. And now I tell you how group content interaction works in todays MMOs:

    "hi"

    - doing group content-

    "bye"

    More is not needed, even for raids on lower difficulties. Perhaps you can now understand, that I am not crusading against single player content. I just want the group content back in the MMO genre.

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