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End Game & Raiding

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Jinxis, Apr 18, 2013.

  1. Jarinolde

    Jarinolde Cupcake-About-Town

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    While it sucks Carbine isn't able to provide options for all, what matters is that they're providing some options and hopefully working to keep things fair between them.

    I myself will gladly try 20 mans to see how it is, because I even felt that 10 man was too small. I always felt that 15 was the right number for small raid groups (and why I had so much fun in SW:TOR's 16 man raids). Small enough to where you could get to know everyone, but large enough so that newcomers don't blatantly stick out like a sore thumb. Deaths are much more meaningful yet a couple are still allowed.
  2. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    Personally at least, i prefer bigger classes. I always go for big lecture halls when i sign up for classes if i have a choice. Obviously college is different then school but the point is that not everyone learns the same way.

    Well they have said that most of the story is going to be told through solo play. That said I really dont want to see solo or 5 man versions of raids, it kills the feeling of epicness for me, if you can kill the boss you just spent months on with such a small number of people.
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  3. Calsic

    Calsic Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm not sure where this line of thinking is coming from.

    In a 40 man raid you will have 8 groups of 5 people all having their own party chat. These smaller groups are usually fairly static on raid nights. In all likelihood you will also have custom channels for class or role (healers, tanks, cc groups, whatever). Those custom channels endure beyond raid night. It's not some big, impersonal glob of people with no interaction.

    My experience is that it's much easier to make friends and have good team play in a larger guild than a small one. Small guilds only need one person to have a bad day and everyone suffers. Drama is also more comon and difficult to deal with in a small group -- again, my experience fwiw.
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  4. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    Let's not forget we get to have circles too. That should make it significantly easier for people who are often available at the same time and enjoy raiding to link up together for random raids. I'm unsure wether or not if Circles had their own associated chat channels, but even if they didn't it still forms a pool of people to draw from for a custom chat channel that people can monitor in the background as they play.
  5. Sevvy

    Sevvy Cupcake-About-Town

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    I still think the most fun I ever had raiding was in 40-man groups. /shrug

    I'm excited for these huge groups. :D
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  6. Purple Rose

    Purple Rose Cupcake-About-Town

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    I am talking about DAOC!
    Swtor wasnt an MMORPG..Was a waste of my money to a company that is never going to see them again from me:)
    And the reason wasnt the fact that the game was aweful.Was because they were telling us idiots in our face!

    Never played DC.Was reffering to DAOC!
    The game was awesome!
  7. Psistorm

    Psistorm Cupcake-About-Town

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    After doing some more reading here, I kinda see the point about why 40 man raids are better, and I'm more and more in favor of them. Our 10-man raids were often tricky, if one of us couldn't show up during raid day, we were mostly screwed, unless we pugged people, which we already had to do because of our minimal guild size. So I see the problem about cliques and whanot. And of course, it was very annoying when some of our members cleared a raid we were struggling with for weeks, just because they ran with another guild without telling us.

    I do hope that wildstar will let me get access to 40-man raids (I will play on the NA servers but am in the EU timezone, but have many US friends, so only can raid during the US afternoon), but with circles and hopefully large, casual to semi-casual guilds, there should be a good chance of getting access to that.
  8. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    Those problems aren't unique to smaller raid sizes. >_>;
  9. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    But the problem of having to find a good enough player to fill the slot is. Also, smaller raids are more hesitant to pick up players which don't have the credentials. Larger raids allow for more lee-way and mistakes on a personal level, so PUG groups form more easily and the group downs bosses based on a bell curve for the raid instead of everyone having to be just right. In other words, if you have to PUG 5 or so people in a 40 man raid (this is 1/8 of the group) and they all die at 50% boss health, the group can still overcome that loss with skill. On the other hand if a 10-man PUG's 1 member (1/10th of the group) and they die 50% of the way through boss health that's (on average) 1/5 of the overall dps (assuming the PUG is a dps). The chances of downing the boss are much less in that case.

    So, pugging, no not unique, but less of a hassle for large groups. Also, groups can be less picky about their exact composition, and pick up 1 to 5 more RDPS instead of MDPS or vice versa and still have a relatively balanced raid composition. So, while dealing with the logistics is a nightmare, the statistics of many more dps:support ratio (probably 3:1) can be mirrored in the raid composition, instead of a 10 man 1:1 dps:support or a 25 man 17:8 dps:support (which is ~2:1). I don't know currently what the ratio of dps to support population is on games at the moment, but I'm pretty sure it's not 1:1 or 1:2.
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  10. Psistorm

    Psistorm Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yeah, I agree with BlindSear. For us the problem was especially difficult as we lacked one main heals, so we had to try and pug them. That often led to pretty horrible outcomes, and we got a lot of people who either simply could not do a fight (like healing people to full on a fight where you should only heal to 10% and no more), or they would run off in a huff if we wiped on the first boss, even though we told them we were new to it and learning.

    So 10-man raids, I would say, definitely are harder to pug for, since you need people who don't make mistakes, else you are prone to wiping often.
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  11. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    Y'know, I read things like this, and then I go see someone talk about how 40 man raids are oh-so-much more difficult than 10 mans, and then my brain just explodes.

    I like it when a raid group relies not just on teamwork but also individual responsibility. I don't like that "bell curve" feel of "Oh we lost someone, but that's okay because we've got a bunch of people who can pick up slack." It's too forgiving. Too... oh, no, I won't say what I'm thinking there. Someone will hate me. xP
  12. Psistorm

    Psistorm Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well it's not all about picking up slack indefinitely etc. I think if the encounter is a bit forgiving, it can still be balanced to be hard. It just means that if you lose one person, you suddenly won't find yourself facing near impossible odds depending on the difficulty of a 10-man. Even one slip by a DPS can cost you a wipe, and while that is interesting, it also can be a tad frustrating if you have that one pug that simply cant cope.

    A 40-man doesn't need to be easy due to the fact that more people can die. In fact, from what I heard, casualties are expected, so its a different feel to the encounter. You still have to be on your toes as a player, but if you do slip up, it doesn't instantly mean game over. I think that is fairly okay, and I'm convinced Carbine will make sure that we definitely need to be on our toes an awful lot if we want to beat those encounters.

    Plus, there are always adventures for smaller groups, that should offer up a whole lot of fun as well.
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  13. Banelight

    Banelight New Cupcake

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    I hear ya, often end up in similar situation...unforntunately the concept of online gaming means this is almost impossible to avoid. My solution was to join long standing online guilds, with people that are my age group or waaay more mature that have strict rules as to who joins guild, or who plays together. this of course comes with its own political issues, but found myself much happier! :) So you almost always play with same group of people...you get to know each other and play better together. One of the main reasons I enjoy MMO sit eh social aspect...your are playing with people of similar interests!
  14. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Well logistically 40 mans are a nightmare, and being able to keep an eye on everyone at once is impossible, while in a 10 man you can immediately see someone and say "You get out of fire." The difficulty between the 40 man is communicating to everyone, and the hard mode could be for those who want that personal skill level feel. On the other hand normal modes can give some forgiveness to those who have friends who want to play but are rubbish.

    On the other hand, do you like wiping for hours on end because the same 2 people keep screwing up? Or having to call a raid because your PUG was able to down the first boss in the raid but not the second, and it taking hours to find a new person because it's not a fresh raid. These things do happen. Overall the 40 man makes raiding more successful, because PUG's are more likely to find a decent established group. It also increases probability of stand-ins to be able to raid, which allows more room for players who don't want to have to raid each week, but still want to raid some.

    With how brilliantly Carbine has done thus far I wouldn't worry about raiding feeling like it's undertuned.
  15. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    There was a guild called "grumpy old men" on my server in WoW, basically a group of solid gamers that were all older, most had families and such. You should think about starting something like that. Since it's a fresh game you can form the community ahead of time so people know it's there, and then they can always be in the circle if they want to game with more mature people.
  16. Soylentgreen

    Soylentgreen Well-Known Cupcake

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    I don't think we are going to see a lot of people pugging 40 man raids, at least that was the impression I've been getting, maybe if they reduce the difficulty a little more toward the end of a content cycle but I doubt they will clear it even then.

    You are right about it being harder to track 40 people in the middle of combat but that's what combat log parsers are for.
  17. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    No, I don't think people will pug complete 40 mans either, but it's more likely for players to LFG into a 40-man raid. I was speaking of the PUG as the player, not the group itself. I think 20 man raids will be the PUG raids (since they're separate from the 40 mans entirely).

    Combat log parsers for 40 people at once will still be very hard to track players in real time, while in smaller groups players can be told during combat what to fix instead of after a wipe. This may actually make people more aware at a personal level, as players need to take it upon themselves to hold themselves accountable, instead of relying on someone to yell at them.
  18. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    With a larger raid comes more division of responsibilities. Class leads, and roll leads (heal, ranged dps, melee dps) can make it easier to identify who or what is the problem. A well managed raid should have no problem figuring out the problem, the harder part is usually being able to solve it. I know when i lead 20mans in rift it was always obvious, usually without looking at combat logs what the problem was. With a few more people helping out the raid leader i dont see why 40 mans would be any different.
  19. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Ok, I'll give you that it can be found, but it would be harder (by a lot) than in a smaller raid. The 40 man raid makes it harder to discern every single person in the raid. Also, it's hard to get a UI which shows everyone's damage output, damage intake, and current health for each person all the time in a 40 man raid. I'm not saying that it can't be done, but it goes to communication between multiple players, instead of a single raid lead. So, the raid will be forced to organize itself as sets of teams or fail. I think the roles and responsibilities of raid officers will become better defined, and each will have not only healing/tank/rdps/mdps officers but each class will have an officer to oversee it. The officer will be able to see who is working at their maximum potential, and the healer/tank/rdps/mdps officers will be in charge of calling things during the fight.
  20. Calsic

    Calsic Cupcake-About-Town

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    Since Recount and raid frames show all this, I'm not clear on what you mean.

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