1. Hey Guest! If you're more than just a WildStar fan and want to keep up on the latest MMO news, reviews and opinion pieces then I'd like to suggest you visit our sister site MMO Central

End Game & Raiding

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Jinxis, Apr 18, 2013.

  1. Mierelle

    Mierelle Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Likes Received:
    92
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Sweden
    This is probably the most common argument on the topic of raiding. This arrgument only apply to fights like Patchwerk 40, 25, 10, for example. It's obvious that the 10 man version have less room for mistakes, but this is a kind of boss that you can find in 5 man versions aswell. What most people seem to overlook is the fights like the Four Horse Men, which they had to remake certain aspects of in order for smaller groups to be able to kill them. Then imagine Majordomo Executus as a 10 man version...

    I love that they are bringing back the bigger groups and separate content. I'm trying to not look too much through nostalgia goggles and more on the possibilities the 40 man encounters can bring. Split us up in smaller groups, punish us for not paying attention and have us bring "unique" abilities to the group.
    Kataryna likes this.
  2. MeakGG

    MeakGG Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2013
    Likes Received:
    176
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    I'm confused. Did you not want the exact same raids, just scaled down in size? Wouldn't that make the difficulty "the same"? How would there be 'top guilds' and 'bragging' and all these things, if the challenge was equal?
  3. MaxT

    MaxT Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    Likes Received:
    27
    Trophy Points:
    18
    There can be more than one carrot you know. :p
    Honestly, they would be two separate goals. Saying you defeated a certain raid in 20 man would not be the same as saying you defeated it in 40.

    WoW made their fights too easy and that's why many of the hardcore players left.
  4. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Likes Received:
    564
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Nova scotia, Canada
    There are actually multiple ways to add difficulties as you scale raid size.

    A simple example could be using 10 man naxx 4 horsemen with 40 man naxx 4 horsemen . The 40 man version required 8 tanks while the 10 man one was laughably easy with 2 ( i think ) when it came out.
    Thats on top of the other differences .

    Just pointing it out .
  5. Calsic

    Calsic Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Likes Received:
    185
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    I think maybe you missed my last sentence. I hope to run both 20 man and 40, when I'm able. When WoW added 10 man versions, many from our 25 man guild ran both. It was incredibly not fun to do the same thing twice a week.

    Incidentally, it was pretty depressing watching the 25 man guilds slowly disappear from wowprogress.
    Kataryna and MeakGG like this.
  6. MaxT

    MaxT Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    Likes Received:
    27
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I am just not very good at expressing my thoughts, heh.

    I meant if the fight is designed to have a certain number of people doing certain things where you can't do it with less then change it around so it's possible to do with 20 people. So it could end up being a slightly different fight in 20 man compared to 40.

    My concern is...I would like to be able to see the raid (surroundings) design, experience any kind of lore tied into the dungeon, get a chance to fight the boss and experience the fun of it without having to belong to a hardcore raiding guild. But my reward would be much less.

    Those who want a greater challenge, better loot, bragging rights, the satisfaction of knowing they beat the hardest 40 man raid out there can still do so.
  7. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Likes Received:
    564
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Nova scotia, Canada
    Just to be clear, Im actually a big proponent of the different raid sizes being completely different raids.
    I can however see how they can scale the difficulty from one size to the other.
  8. MeakGG

    MeakGG Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2013
    Likes Received:
    176
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    I hate to play the trump card... (who am I kidding? I love playing the trump card!)

    "So we’re a bit old-school. Big ass raids. Tough raids. Raids you have to earn your way into beating, and raids that aren’t made so your grandma can make it through. Sure, we can make things easier over time - but only if there are new challenges to give a tough time to the hardest of the hardcore."

    That's taken directly from Wildstar's official website. I encourage all you newcomers alike to read through the past few months of information. This is the upteenth reiteration of this topic, and while discussion is encouraged and appreciated, Carbine knows what they want the game to be, and are looking to hit a certain demographic, not "appealing to the masses".

    You'll also find that they mention their ideal customer is "hardcore", who wants challenges, 40 man content, difficult to organize, difficult to achieve raids. They believe this to be the strongest LONG TERM customer. I, personally, agree. I left WoW when the size dropped, because I was an emo kid back then, and I left again when the difficulty dropped, and then I left again when they made raiding a $15 a month free ride. Why did I come back for $15 a year instead of spending the full $180.... it wasn't appealing, alluring, engaging.

    The newer members to this board will also find I share the same opinions as what I would say is the MAJORITY of the members here. Like I said, opinions are always welcome, but keep in mind that this game is being developed DIFFERENTLY than what you may be used to. LFR, small raids, unlimited abilities, badged end game, no classes, class/race freedom, auto attacks, RMAH, P2W, F2P.... they exist... in NUMBERS. Just not here =)

    Try to enjoy it!
    Archarion, Kataryna and Mudfin like this.
  9. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Likes Received:
    564
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Nova scotia, Canada
    There are better ways to phrase what you said while still being classy.

    New folks want to be encouraged to take part in the community and discussion even if it has been done before. A simple link to the old discussion would have worked with you stating, like ive said in earlier discussions : This is my view point and what im trying to convey.

    This blanket "trump" is just blah .
    Ninereeds likes this.
  10. MeakGG

    MeakGG Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2013
    Likes Received:
    176
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    The first 30 times probably sounded better. When I have kids I'll be sure to say "Morning honey! Time for school! Your breakfast is getting cold!" in the same tone for 2 hours.
  11. Calsic

    Calsic Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Likes Received:
    185
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    ... am speechless with admiration ...

    Agree on all points!
  12. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Likes Received:
    564
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Nova scotia, Canada
    Not an appealing way to try to win an argument at all.
    Ninereeds and Tiberius like this.
  13. MaxT

    MaxT Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    Likes Received:
    27
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I have seen and read that statement. And I applaud them for making that choice.
    You don't seem to understand what I am saying though.

    I am not asking for them to dumb it down and make it easier. That is what that statement talks about.

    I am not talking about the complexity of the content. I am talking about the fact that a very large player base may not be able to see it...ever. An analogy would be: what is the point of painting a picture if you hang it in your basement where nobody can see it? Why not put it on a display in a museum, if it is good enough, where millions can enjoy it?

    PS: just because I am new to the game, doesn't mean I am any more or less excited about it.
  14. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Likes Received:
    564
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Nova scotia, Canada
    They can simply tone down the raids when it gets outdated by new raids . That way more casual folks can see it eventually.
    Or folks can see it when a new expansion comes out with new levels and gear. Its a matter of just going back to old content , like naxx 40 was during bc for wow.
  15. Calsic

    Calsic Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Likes Received:
    185
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    It's been repeatedly said that they plan to include content for the one percent ... meaning the very small player base who will be able to see it.
  16. MeakGG

    MeakGG Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2013
    Likes Received:
    176
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    We're about 2 posts away from Yakzan coming in here and modding the <REDACTED> out of us, so I'll apologize if I've offended you. I assure you, I was in no way trying to "win" an argument. It's evident that people got excited about beta, and came to this forum without reading up on any other topics. That's also understandable, because this game is <REDACTED>ing rad, and all anybody ever wants to do is talk about it! At the same time, a little research can go a long way. The IDEA behind Wildstar is "old school" with "new age". 40 Man content is the STAPLE for most of us here. I recently posted the information on my 4 year old casual 300+ guild facebook page, and half of the active members on that page (around 60) all said "40 man raids... I'm in". I'll show SS to prove if required.

    It's just upsetting that people are trying to diffuse the ONLY GAME OUT that wants 40 man raids. It'd be like me going into FF boards and asking for easier crafting and less grinding. Or going into the Teso boards and asking that they make it on a new world.... games have staples, this one happens to be large raids.

    Regardless, I didn't mean to come off like a dick, so I'm sorry. I'm just defensive of Wildstar and the dev team, and really just HOPE people go into it with an open mind, and give 40 man raids a change. I'll have around 4 hours a week to play this game... and I'll find the time to do 40 man raids. Hardcore doesn't mean "time invested" anymore. It's 2013. Skill comes into play.

    Once again, sorry if I came off like a douche. And Yazkan... I love you
    Khrusky and Calsic like this.
  17. MaxT

    MaxT Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    Likes Received:
    27
    Trophy Points:
    18
    That is true. But you would no longer be at the appropriate gear/skill/stat level if you roll into the old content with all the expansion goodies. :p That is why people ran through MC with five paladins or some shenanigans like that. :p
  18. Calsic

    Calsic Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Likes Received:
    185
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    Pretty sure I've seen something to the effect that they plan to do this.
  19. MaxT

    MaxT Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    Likes Received:
    27
    Trophy Points:
    18
    You did not. I wasn't offended.
    I just don't think it HAS to be "either...or". You can have the cake and the icing so to speak if the developers chose to do so.
    We are good.
  20. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Likes Received:
    564
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Nova scotia, Canada
    Perhaps so but you can still see the content. It is a tough balancing act and to be honest , I do agree that the cutting edge 40 man raids need to be cutting edge and hard. It fosters competition and community rivalry.
    As for 20 mans, having them be separate raids all together is great! It means there is a progression path for 20 man raiders thats not just a recolor of what 40 man folks do. Its a proper path and focus.

    The same way pvp is, or hopefully crafting.

    I myself would quite happily go see it when its outdated for the sake of seeing it. The same way I wouldnt mind someone else getting a house item an expansion later that I worked hard to achieve when it was current.
    There do need to be goals to keep folks striving and also that allows them to be appreciated for what they accomplished.

Share This Page