Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Jinxis, Apr 18, 2013.
To get a chance to beat it...not to just see it. Key difference.
I see your point but I will shamelessly steal your PVP example.
Having same PVP maps but different level brackets was awesome in WoW. It allowed those who didn't live and breathe PVP to be able to participate and have fun. Those who wanted the most competitive, hardcore PVP would go into the top bracket with premade groups and reap better rewards.
This is very similar to what I was suggesting.
1) 20 and 40 raids mean competitive raiders have to raid the SAME content twice per week (or whatever reset they decide on). That causes faster burn out.
2) 20 and 40 raids with different gear will created the same debauchery it did in WoW when ICC did it. "WTF? Our content is just as hard on 40/20, why is the gear different?" So the separate gear doesn't work.
3) I don't understand how a 20 raid is any more achievable than a 40 raid. 90% of raids occur when people are off work, and before they go to bed. So on average 5-11? That's 6 hours, 2-5 of which are raiding. When a 10 man is raiding in WoW, there are 5 other guilds doing it too, at the exact same time. I think you'll have an easier time getting into a 40 man raiding guild than you might think, being that 40 man content is considered true end game.
4) My friend Matthew Edward Peters PVP'd all through Vanilla, while I lead my guild into Naxx40. He NEVER entered it once. He started doing PVE when ICC came out... YEARS later. He has NEVER entered Naxx, and he will NEVER enter Naxx because "I don't deserve to walk into the doors. I can only imagine how scary it is, and the idea of what I think it is, is way better than what I know it is now". People NOT seeing content is not a bad thing. It's actually a great thing. People WANT to see content, and the fact that they might NOT can force them to make the proper choices TO see content. Whether that's improving their skill/knowledge, changing the time they work out after work, or choosing a guild that raids on the weekend (as there will be HUNDREDS now that we're all adults)... it's for the gamer to decide.
Does any of that make sense Max?
Oh Hmmmm fair point.
But in a pvp environment , while the settings are the same, you dont always fight the same people in the same way.
Id equate it more to AQ 20 vs AQ 40. Same style and background, different raids.
1) Why would those who can do 40 man also do 20? There is no reason for them to do so. Maybe once, for achievements.
2) I quit WoW after BC, so I can't comment on this. Sounds silly though. Carbine would be smart enough not to give into this.
3) Plenty of examples here. People run raids with friends and family. Not everybody is on the same schedule. A lot easier to get 20 people on at the same time than 40.
4) I think that is actually sad if Matthew represents the majority of players, whatever that may be. I would be perfectly fine with the current design if 90% of people could do 40 man raids and 10 % couldn't instead of the opposite. Unfortunately the later is most likely true.
I do remember that.
This is actually the first solid counter I have read.
I wouldn't mind if they did things in the AQ 20 vs AQ 40 style.
That actually would be a great way to implement it - same flavor , completely different raids.
1) Because progression has historically worked Dungeon>Raid. In wildstar, it will be dungeon>heroicdungeon>20manraid>40manraid.
Why would you skip doing 20 mans, if you have 40 people ready to raid, and 20 man drop better gear than dungeons? You wouldn't. You need the best gear you can get, the soonest you can get it.
2) How does this sound silly? It seems like you've missed out on this whole experience. Sarth3D 10 man in WotLK was insanely challenging compared to 25 man. This trend repeats itself in every patch of content since the beginning of 25/10 mans. You can't truly measure the difficulty of a "raid" based on how many people its designed for, when comparing it to the same raid with a different size. Variables, and unavoidable mechanics make this impossible. There is really no way around having 1 size be less/more challenging on EVERY FIGHT, unless the challenge is so different that one would be considered "easy mode".
3) To allow for community, while also focusing on what you're interested in doing, Carbine put in "circles". You should check them out. You can either circle with your F&F, or circle with your Raid. If you have a total of 20 players who are your F&F, and you guys are against anybody else raiding with you, I can see how it'd be challenging for you to experience 40 man content. If you're open to 'circling' your friends while joining a raiding guild, or vice versa, I don't really see the problem. And like I said, if 40 mans are the only end game, the only option will be 40 man raids. There will be an abundance of them, and I'm sure you and your F&F could find a home with other like minded people.
4) I'm certain Matthew DOESN'T represent the majority of players. I KNOW he is in the minority. The extreme minority. As is Wildstar in creating a game with 40 man raids. And it's playerbase will be in the minority. lastly, 90% of people CAN do 40 man raids. Nobody is telling you that you can't. Nobody is telling you that you can't join a 40 man raiding guild with your F&F. Nobody is restricting you, or gating you, or holding you back at all. You have the freedom to do whatever you want in Wildstar. You do see that right?
Hey you edited this! haha, you didn't have that whole paragraph when I first responded. And I would have linked the most recent discussion, but it was my own thread and I was embarrassed. I didn't want to be all "hey guy... uhhhh... this has already been discussed... BY ME!"
And like I said, I already apologized for coming off like a dick
Oh dont worry about it - that was a page ago and you already dealt with it
I'm thrilled. I loved 40 man raids back in vanilla wow. It could be a PITA at times, with the roster issues and the organizing and the drama. But that was part of the experience!
I'm an adult now with a family and limited spare time, so I might not be able to dive into 40 mans the way I used to in college, but that's fine. Sometimes it's good to have things a little out of reach, and I'm sure I'll be able to participate in some capacity.
I'd hate it if they go the wow route where there are identical copies of the instances tuned for 20/40 man (especially if there was an incentive to run both, talk about burn out). I think having totally seperate 20 and 40 mans is a great model - even if it means people like me don't get to see every inch of every 40 man instance. Part of what makes those kinds of instances so epic is the high barrier to entry, I'm ok with that.
I would like to be sure I am following you correctly. You would like 20 and 40 man raids to raid the same content? You like the 20 man to be more simplified? You'd accept lesser rewards in the 20 man? And you want it this way so that you can see all the content?
If that is your stance then I hope you understand that as of now that is not going to happen. MeakGG has done an excellent job in explaining that and I am sure you have understood it. So, my next question would be are you just expressing your hopes for one day down the line? Or are you hoping Carbine will change their mind? As to the latter question I don't think they will and as to the former it could happen much later down the line.
The best way, in my opinion obviously, to think of 20 man raids is that it is a "teir" lower than 40 man raids. It's not necessarily a stepping stone to 40 man as you don't ever have to do 20 man raids to do 40 man raids.
Also, there is a mercenary system for the more solo centered or casual player. They haven't released a ton of details, but the concept is that you can put yourself up as a merc and then get "hired" to fill a raid spot. As I am not a large group raider this sounds awesome for me to get a chance to see the content that I'd otherwise not see. Who knows, I could change my opinion and end up liking large group raiding again.
1) Have they confirmed that progression or are you speculating on it? If it has been confirmed, then of course you would not skip the 20 man.
2) Having 40 organized / skilled people on at the same time is twice as hard as having 20. Simple math on this one. So 40 man will always be considered harder as long as the content is scaled accordingly.
3) I have not read about this system yet, and it may very well change my mind. Not sure how this is different from a typical guild alliance or a simple "friend of a friend wants to come and join us". But I will read about it.
4) Simply not true. Wait until you have a family. You may be surprised how little time you have to do anything at all, let alone play. I am sure there are statistics out there for an average online time for a typical MMO gamer.
The kids with no social life who play day and night represent only a very small percentage.
well, when you put it that way....heh
actually, not more simplified, just easier to organize, which inherently makes it more accessible (but yes, with reduced rewards).
My understanding was they are still collecting feedback and nothing is truly set in stone yet. In fact, I am sure they had this same exact discussion with the same arguments. I do not know what they have decided yet.
Was not aware of the Merc system. It does sound interesting. Looks like they may actually have taken what I am trying to voice into consideration.
1) Yes, they have
2) At first. I believe it's not THAT different from find 20. Also, if there are 20 man equivalents, there will ONLY be 20 man raids, as represented in WoW. 25 mans in wow are all only competing on world scale, and the majority are the only on their server. If you have the option to do 40/20, you will obviously do 20. BUT, if you DON'T have the option, you will only do 40. I've had an easier time recruiting people for my 40 man raiding guilds, and even 25 man raiding guilds in Vanilla and WotLK, than I did in Cata for my 10 mans. This might seem logistically challenging to understand, and I can go more in depth if you want, but for the people out here who have similar experiences, I'm sure you can vouch for me.
3)Check it out, it's pretty cool.
4) It's 2013, and MMO's have been out for years at an incredibly popular level. Basic mechanics that were foreign to us 8 years ago are easily mastered now. I manage a company, on site, for around 50 hours a week. I will be in school full time. I play in a cover band. I have a girlfriend that I live with, and a 3 legged cat. On top of that, I like to travel, and play music alone, and some nights spend a few hours on skype with some friends in Japan.... I will find time. In MoP I joined a top 300 25 man raiding guild. We cleared MSV week 1, and got 3 bosses down heroic mode week 2. That was all done in 14 hours over 2 weeks. That's 7 hours a week. 1 hour a night every day, or 2 3 hour raids and a 1 hour raid, once a week. Skill absolutely demolishes time, and we are all better gamers now than we were 8 years ago. If you don't have 7 hours a week to play the game, you won't be doing 20 mans either. It takes between 150-175 hours to even hit level cap. Add another 30 hours to properly gear for tier one. That means that you won't even be raiding tier 1 for 7 months from release, at 7 hours a week (if I did my math correctly). Making this conversation completely moot.
1) Then what Rumze suggested would be the best solution in this case.
2) Only if there is no incentive to do the 40. You can easily provide that, and not only via better loot.
3) I will.
4) pretty sure you forgot to mention "sleep" in there. It's a marathon, not a race. There will be people who will find a way to hit the cap in a week. I see nothing wrong with raiding 7 months from launch, as long as I had fun leveling those 7 months. In fact, if they do go with the subscription model, even better for Carbine.
Any link to this information? Not something I'd heard about before.
I like being 'forced' into 40 man's to see the truly epic content.
The whole mentality of "play how you want to play" that so many games throw around now has always bothered me. I mean, if 20 man is 'less hassle' to put together than 40, and 10 is even easier than that, then where does that progression stop? If players truly played how they wanted to play, we would have 1 man raids that were equivalent to 40 mans in terms of gear.
A game catering to what is convenient to us as the consumer sounds nice, but it defeats the purpose of what the game is, and that is a grand adventure with a world for us to conquer, not have it be handed to us in the most expedient way.
I agree with what others have said that there is actually a lot of value in having content that many players do not see, as backwards as that may seem. It gives the world teeth and authenticity when there are bosses so badass that only the best of the best can even get in the place to try and fight them. This coming from someone who has never been in a bleeding edge guild; I just love that 'air of danger' that hangs over the whole world when you have truly terrifying mobs.
Call it old school, but it would be cool to see attunements as well, along with titles. I know some think this leads to elitism. Personally, I think you should stand out a bit, and be rewarded for those long quest chains and finishing raids. I raided in the WoW BC era...yeah...those were the days. Back then others commended you for your gear, titles, etc. and a job well done. Somehow....over time...it all went wrong. Now its more "you're not better than me"...and..."they should nerf this no fair!" So sad. I understand not everyone has time to raid, but those that do, and work hard as a team...do deserve to be rewarded and stand out. They've earned it.
It was another thread here. And it was backed up by a link. I just can't remember which thread, sorry. If someone else can back that up please do.
Oh and I dont recall them ever stating 20 man was a precursor or gate to 40 man. It is additional content.