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Esper's, Could this be?

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by Wicked Lady, Apr 3, 2014.

  1. Wicked Lady

    Wicked Lady New Cupcake

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    Well since playing the Esper, i've noticed its a very fast paced play style, (if you want to play it well)

    Could this be the most complicated class to play in game?

    I spent a while deciding on my action set, and another while to get comfortable'ish with my routine, only to have a spanner in the works with the dodging of telegraphs, and be messed up again.
    But it can be played as a 2 button charge and finisher

    could this be the decider for the skilled and unskilled player?

    whats your thoughts?
  2. calebrus

    calebrus Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yes, I think it might belong to them.
  3. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    I found the Esper to be the most static class personally, but I haven't done any level of theorycrafting on them to weigh in on which is the most complicated class! :p
  4. Wicked Lady

    Wicked Lady New Cupcake

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    I would love to see the theorycraft for the Esper, just to see if i'm right with my assumption or not..
  5. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    The Esper can heal quite well and release a lot of damage. However, they have their weaknesses.

    First is immobility. It's our worst enemy especially in a game that rewards mobility. Basic builder heal and attack is stationary or require extended charge time. Lighter armor means less forgiving. So a player has to stay alert and know when to dodge and when not to. When I've had to dodge, I've been using mobile builders (like concentrated blade, blade dance, bolster) to build a psi point as I do. In healing and damage, building psi points quickly is vitally important.

    In healing, Espers are kind of lacking when it comes to cleansing debuffs. The cleanse power is twice the recharge of other classes.

    Also in healing, Espers are very good at restoring health, but not so much in restoring shields. We have one power on a long recharge that can provide an absorb shield and if we tier up bolster it can provide a absorb as well. Meanwhile a Medic has Triage with a 8 second cooldown that heals and restores shields and Barrier which restores more shields and heal over time, but longer recharge. Plus a couple others. Spellslingers have Runes of protection that provide an absorb shield, but it has a mere 18 second cooldown.

    On the other side of things, Espers do have a number of targeted heals. I think this will be most helpful on large raids when it might be difficult to actually see where the tank is. Espers are also pretty good at heal over time abilities.
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  6. Bisqquit

    Bisqquit "That" Cupcake

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    No. Espers are basically Spellslingers who can't shoot and think at the same time.
  7. PalsyPlague

    PalsyPlague Cupcake

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    Wrong. I assume you're thinking that all esper moves are immobile? This is entirely incorrect. Spellslingers have 4 stationary dps moves (2 support, plus one that benefits stationary players), while espers only have 2 (3 support). So perhaps spellslingers are just espers who can't shoot and think at the same time?

    Or, thinking that any of the six classes is truly immobile is just dumb. Take your pick.
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  8. Wicked Lady

    Wicked Lady New Cupcake

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    Most people believe that the esper is a stationary simply because the first move and primary move before level 6? is a stationary move, and the critics level them up no higher than level 10 and brag on about it being mainly a stationary class and stop playing it, but most classes don't use their full potential until 20's if not higher as their skills unlock so this tactic for gauging a class is very ineffective

    As the game progresses the judgement will change, people will begin to see the difference between a skilled esper, and a button mashing esper, as with all the classes.

    Game will be released in under 2 months, and i'm glad i've found the ranged class that offers me a real challenge! lets just say its been a while since i've played a class that i've had to think about what skill to use next.
  9. Felion

    Felion Cupcake-About-Town

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    Let's just talk dps, 'cause every class can do that so it's fair to compare. This is all preliminary observation but as of now I stand by these observation!

    Esper's play style will rely on positioning a lot --- find the best place to stand at (best defined by able to stay stationary for the longest period of time without dying or cause a wipe) and get there with minimal dps loss (minimal dps loss comes from either getting there really fast or getting there while you're casting a mobile move that you'd cast anyway, like your finishers). Esper's play style will also rely on psi point management, extra generator after 5 points is a dps loss, casting finisher before 5 points is a dps loss, waiting to see whether if you have 5 points or not is a dps loss.

    Spellslinger's play style will rely on positioning as well --- Some big hitters, like charged attack and rapid fire, are stationary. Not as bad as the Esper but you can't move around ALL the time and do optimal dps --- between your empowered mobile nukes you still need fillers, and stationary fillers are just better dps than quick draw. Spellslingers will also need to manage spellpower and this is a lot harder than I thought --- The time you spend looking at your own spellpower = dps time lost, the time you spend by pressing the spellsurge button and then shut it down = dps time lost (this you can't really help, just gotta factor it into it when trying to optimize dps), and you can't really queue up the next skill because it'll waste your spell power so everything's gotta be as quick as it gets and right on the spot. Spell power sitting at max = dps wasted, spell power not sufficient when you're about to fire off the nukes = dps wasted, because delaying the nukes is potentially a bigger dps loss depending on how long you delay it. And it doesn't really go into a nice cycle, if you want it to be a nice cycle you gotta interupt some of your casts at the right moment and that ain't easy.

    Stalker needs to be vigilant, stealth needs to be used strategically and constantly in combat, positioning is of course crucial for impale, and most important of all --- the nature of suit power in addition to some damage bonuses means you can't spam and hope to do optimal dps. Gotta have a plan of what to do and can't really think on the spot or you're wasting dps time, gotta always think 5-10 seconds ahead and no button smashing. Unless you're in that button-smashing position.

    Medic needs to juggle the field position, actuator usage, probes timing, and debuffs. No using your nukes before the vulnerable debuffs are applied, but the vulnerable debuff only applies for a few seconds so you gotta squeeze in those nukes that can best benefit from it. Then later, when triggered exploding probes happen, you gotta play the field like you mean it on top of everything else.

    Engineers, dps wise, just need to watch for rotation (and resource) and don't miss the shot. Unless you're using bots then you better keep an eye on it, 10 seconds of down time after Arty dies is still 10 seconds of dps loss.

    Warriors, I've no idea. Unless you count my pre-level-5 faceroll experience into it.

    So the hardest to easiest in terms of dps, out of the 5 classes that I've played to 20, are: Spellslinger, Stalker, Medic, Esper, Engineer. As in, I'm pretty confident that I'm doing close to the most dps I could do on the Engineer and Esper (Esper needs to be played with a crispy mentality whereas the Engineer not so much, so it is ahead of the Engineer), a little unsure of whether if I've done the best as I could for Stalker and Medic (Medic is just a lot to juggle so I haven't always lined everything up perfectly, but Stalker I know that I've hesitated at times and said "damn it" at times, so Stalker is ahead of Medic), and definitely know that I haven't done as much as I can with Spellslinger (for that matter, none of the videos I've watched have optimized Spellslinger dps. Spellpower full and spellsurge isn't activated within 1-2 seconds = already a sign of big loss. In fact ideally, spellpower should never be full and that button should be juggling on and off constantly, and this is just way easier said than done).

    This is of course the opinion based on level 20 characters, it could TOTALLY change for level 50.
  10. Wicked Lady

    Wicked Lady New Cupcake

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    Felion it sounds as if your pro spellslinger, which is fantastic your've found your ideal class!

    I've played the spellslinger briefly (level 15) so i can in no way judge the abilities or skill required for the role, i did notice some of the extra skills are damage boosters as well as strong dps skills and the initial attack looses potency quite early on, so the damage boosters are needed to be used to kill mobs faster. also there is alot of movement required in order to survive as your defense is dramatically low. It was exciting to play the spellslinger because it is a keep on your toes, while managing spells and charges class, but this was not my ideal playstyle and I began to loose interest.

    whereas with the esper, 'you can get by' with just spamming your first 2 abilities (i did this while leveling and killed world mobs easy), the real damage showed itself when i was using duel blade attacks and stuns in dungeons, however for world mobs you may aswell not bother because they will be dead before you get half way through your initial rotation, unless your taking on a particularly hard mob.

    Your summary of the Esper is very basic, there is alot more DPS improving factors to take into consideration other than psi point management, watching your CD's and utilising them when they come up, without going over your 5 psi points when to bubble vs dodge vs take the hit & regen for the sake of dps, effectively using a combination of stuns, roots etc in order to incapacitate the enemy thus improving your dps on the target. but it is very hard to do a positive writeup on a class that doesn't grab you!

    I personally found the esper offered a difficulty level that i can appreciate. Sure its not for everyone, if it were we would have a server full of espers, and that wouldn't be fun at all!

    I do look forward to playing with skilled spellslingers, as i do for all the classes.
  11. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    Something should also be said for the Esper's Temporary pet powers like Giest and Swarm. Giest has a long recharge, but swarm isn't too bad. Their cooldowns can be balanced a little with the use of the right amps.

    Anyway, the last pre-order weekend, I was having so much fun with swarm. I was somewhere where these little beetles would attack in groups and they were all like "Grr! We're going to eat you! Nom! Nom!" and I just used my swarm and Giest and suddenly "Ahh! We're getting eaten!"

    Silliness aside, Spellslingers don't have anything like the temporary pets Espers have. Pets that can be armed with lifesteal if tiered up. The presence of these abilities provides another style of place for espers.
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  12. Felion

    Felion Cupcake-About-Town

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    Oh no by no means am I a good spellslinger player, I'm a noob too! :D I just felt it was difficult for me to optimize its dps. I was running all kinds of classes multiple times through adventure and dungeon, with the addon dps meter to check my performance, so that I can get an idea myself. For spellslinger, my priority of spellsurge usage is on ignite (when empowered, the damage increase was HUGE compared to other spells) followed by wild barrage (100% armor penetration on top of damage increase), but it certainly never went as smoothly as I've hoped because spellpower was a lot harder to manage than I thought, especially considering queueing up spells to minimize the damage of lag on dps --- It leaves me with a quarter of a second of doing nothing after spellsurge which makes me feel like I could've done better... :( And sometimes when I need a spellsurge for ignite, I simply don't have enough, that throws the rotation into a mess too...

    I've played Esper the most though... :p This is my priority list for my Esper dps: Concentrated Blades X 2 whenever 2 charges are off CD AND I'm at 5 psi point (i.e. right before mind blast) or 0 psi point (because waiting to get 5 points while CB is off CD is too much dps lost) --- reason being, 4.4 seconds delay works well with Mind Blast + 1.25 X 3 seconds of TS; The charge up time isn't wasted as long as it's not sitting at 2 charges and waiting, so no need to cast whenever a single charge comes up, and this way it doesn't interfere with psi point planning or breaking up precious TS spamming time or messing up the queueing because lags are evil and eats away dps. If you're not going to be able to TS in the next few seconds though feel free to CB and MB accordingly as long as psi isn't wasted. Geist and Swarm whenever off CD because for 1 instant cast they're worth the dps; Mind Blast immediately at the very instant that I have 5 psi point; Telekinetic Strike otherwise. Of course, when you're moving you've gotta be flexible, but there's always a general philosophy that should guide the way...

    Whenever I use the innate, I use it at 0 psi point, cast 2 TS and Mind Blast + 2 or 3 TS and Mind Blast again. This would result in either a 4 point MB + 5 point MB or two 5 point MB in the shortest amount of time without wasting any innate psi point regen.

    I chose TS over Psychic Frenzy + Illusionary Blade + Blade Dance because it is higher dps AND psi generation at the expense of mobility, both Illusionary Blade and Blade Dance have cast time too so incorporating them is not a straightforward dps increase like Swarm or Geist but instead need to compare to TS and TS wins. MB over Storm because even in dungeons Storm don't always get full 10 hits in there. But I should note, in Stormtalon's Lair ultimately going the mobile build can often end up with higher dps on the bosses, simply because you keep needing to move and in the case of the last phase of the 2nd boss, never stop moving...

    I like the busy and crisp style that Esper dps has, which is why I've played it the most. But if I'm just ranking them on difficulty, I'll vote the ones that I have more difficulty of handling instead of what I like most... :p
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  13. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    Except when your in the middle of a Soldier holdout where you encounter more than 5 MOBs, or just had a add start chewing on your butt while the other MOBs are still out in front of you, or you get more than 5 MOBs out in front of you, or you would really like to move without not doing any damage and not building PPs.
    Blade Dance is mobile, it's PBAOE, it can damage 10 MOBs, it builds 2 PP.
    If the fight is straight up then you probably don't need BD, but if the fight is straight up using BD does not really hurt anything either (Unless you care about every itty-bity point of DPS.), and the graphic is just fricken fun...at least for me...and fun is why I'm playing a game.
  14. Wicked Lady

    Wicked Lady New Cupcake

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    Love the soldier path, tried most roles, and what more can I say but... I like killing stuff!
    But the holdouts get crazy later, i'm assuming at higher levels i'm going to need to bring a friend
  15. PalsyPlague

    PalsyPlague Cupcake

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    That is a well written post Felion, and I agree with you that spellslinger dps is probably going to be more difficult to play than esper dps (I'm just tired of people always assuming that espers are for kids with downs >.>). I just want to pick on one point^^:

    Argument:
    I only disagree with you on one point, and I may be wrong at levels higher than 27 because I haven't had the chance to test it out yet. My esper dps build doesn't use TS or PF at all, instead I juggle cds between Illusionary Blade, CB, Haunt (immobile, but short cast time), and spectral swarm. I've found that this primarily mobile build was increasing my dps on the fights that needed my dps the most*. I was able to beat out the stationary spec on any fight requiring even occasional movement or the breaking of a TS pattern. I suspect that in raids a fully mobile spec like this will be the way to go because it generally increases survivability to remain as mobile as possible, and survivability always equates to higher dps averages in the end (in my experience).

    *Boss fights which (in my experience) typically require fully-group movement. The stationary build will beat most mobile esper builds on most trash pulls.

    Rationale:
    I need to check my numbers again on live but I found that Illusionary Blades (ONLY if you always charge it to C3) tied TS in pure dps, while TS clearly beats IB in psy point generation. Another problem with IB is that it makes you more vulnerable to RNG (i.e. Deflect). I also realize that I am sacrificing some psy point generation for mobility, but won't that be made up in the end because I can run while casting IB instead of interrupting TS?

    Here's some maths based on data from ws-base.com:

    TS: every 1.25s: 37.34% assault + 19.93 magic (1 psy)

    TSx2 per IBx1: 74.68% assault + 39.86 magic (2 psy)

    IB: every 2.5s: 74.69% assault + 39.85 magic (1 psy)

    Conclusion:
    DPS between IB and TS is approximately equal. TS is the clear winner regarding psy point generation. But I think the mobility will be worth it if TS gets interrupted a couple times per fight.

    The Elephant in the Room:
    Will most raid boss telegraphs require dodges rather than run n' shoot tactics? If that is the case then sacrificing for mobility might be a bad idea for every class across the board. Most "mobility" builds are based on the underlying tenant that you will always be able to dodge while casting/shooting/charging. If fights are consistently requiring me to interrupt IB for a hard-core dodge then my dps will go to utter <REDACTED>. It's really hard to gauge how useful mobility will be without first-hand experience with the end-game bosses/raids.
  16. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    I should have added this to one of my earlier posts, but....

    While Giest has a lot of hit points, Swarm doesn't. Though they do have a shorter cooldown. Anyway, giest and swarm are not the best choices to take on a dungeon because of their low hitpoints. One telegraph from a big scary boss can squash them before they inflict much damage. They are melee chompers. Some adventures are different where you might have adds. Then they can be used as a distraction if anything. Giest is still able to hold its own.
  17. Felion

    Felion Cupcake-About-Town

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    I agree it is fun! :D But from a pure throughput point of view, assuming ideal condition, TS spam is probably the hardest hitting spammable (and quick resource builder) in the game, and when you're TS spamming other cast time/channel/charge spells can't coexist... But I do find though, that even in dungeons, sometimes the mobile build (which includes BD of course) can do more damage purely out of the fact that you'd be doing damage a lot more often...

    Very nice comparison, and I totally forgot about haunt. Yeah Haunt is in cast off CD I think in any spec, the magic resistance = striaght up dps increase debuff, regardless of dps it should be up there in priority (and the dps isn't too shabby). As you've pointed out though, IB and TS has the same dps, but IB has 8 second CD which means there likely are going to be times that you're running and not casting anything EVEN considering all the other instant and mobiles that you're using. I'd say BD or PF are reasonable fillers to cover those moments, 'cause any time that isn't used to output damage is a loss, the beauty of a mobile build is minimizing those none-dpsing time anyways so casting anything is better than potentially waiting for a CD. I feel that one big advantage of TS (or PF for that matter) over instants and CDs is that the spammable nature allows them to utilize the 0.5 second queue very well, getting rid of the lag's influence on dps and making cast sequences as tight as possible ---> dps increase.

    The halfing of psi point generation is quite a big deal to me though. 129.8%+69.23 at 5 pp for MB, it is about 1/2 - 1/3 of your total damage, halfing it will make a noticeable dent. IB, Swarm, CB and Haunt are all around 10 second CD/recharge, which means if you're relying solely on these for your psi regen, you'd be about 1/2 or even 1/3 of the speed of a TS spammer (who also uses Swarm, CB and Haunt). But I have a suggestion: bolster! Since you're using CDs anyways, there should be some moments where you are not casting anything and that's good time to use bolster for quick psi generation.

    I agree with you that on bosses, a lot of times mobile builds do more overall damage. I was playing around with my build and it shows, especially during particular phases of a boss fight, TS spam simply isn't viable. The problem with TS is that it needs to be spammed --- One of its advantage is how it can be spammed and queued tightly, occasionally casting one here and there hurts more than just the time running in between, it makes the beginning and ending of the cast not so crisp and timely. But because the optimal dps of a TS build is noticeably higher than mobile optimal dps (as in, stand still and pew pew situations), even in some movement fights as long as the movements aren't THAT bad, TS can still come out on top. So I think this is where we save 2 sets of LAS and be ready to switch on the flight! :D Well, once we know the mechanism of the fights that is. There are definitely fights that I've wished I equipped one set rather than another lol.

    Well survivability aside, swarm only needs 2 hit (from all 3 little buggers) to make it worthwhile for the casting time (1 psi point regen as well), and every hit afterward is extra damage. So in any case it definitely should be on the bar because we actually don't have many better dps spells than it. The wonderful thing is that it's basically a dot that doesn't interfere with casting, so it coexist with any build whether TS or PF or others. Geist though on the other hand, the damage is actually a little low, but since it's pretty much a dot anways so I still use it for dps boost. Unlike Swarm, Geist actually needs to survive for almost its full duration to make it a decent damage spell. Considering its attack interval, it does 1/3 of the dps of swarm and hence 1/3 of dps of CB. I've been thinking about replacing it with say, bolster for quick psi point generation. Bolster (1/5 of 5 pp MB damage every 10 seconds) versus geist (1/3 of CB damage) is a tough one for me, bolster should be slightly higher dps with the benefit of a hot, but geist is a weak taunt for emergencies + 15% damage reduction for the full duration...
  18. Drokk

    Drokk Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'd rank spellslingers as the highest skill ceiling. Careful use of spell surge can make a huge difference.
  19. Bloodclott

    Bloodclott Cupcake

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    I've played Esper 3 times through the previous betas. Leaving my Esper at level 47 at this current beta

    Here's the thing, this game teaches you that being stationary can get you gibbed by a fast telegraph and that there is 3 ways to solve it.

    1. Dodge of course, mix up your abilities to make you more mobile
    2. When the mob is casting a telegraph, use a knockdown or knockback to stop the telegraph and give yourself a Moment of Weakness (you do more damage when a mob's life bar becomes purple)
    3. Use a cripple or snare to slow a mob down so the telegraph will be hard for them to cast, also gives you more free hits.

    You don't fully take advantage of all of these unless you reach at the very least level 23 or pick up on the Moment of Weakness mechanic quickly.
  20. Bisqquit

    Bisqquit "That" Cupcake

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    What's dumb is thinking I referred to mobility at all.

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