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Faction Barriers and Roleplay

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Dairios, Apr 5, 2013.

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Do you believe Dominion and Exiles should have some Socialization?

  1. Agree! Factions should at least be able to Communicate.

    50.0%
  2. Disagree! We're not here to talk, we're here to win Nexus.

    37.9%
  3. Neutral. I don't really mind either way.

    12.1%
  1. Trinitite

    Trinitite New Cupcake

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    5%, quite possible, the actual amount of role players would of course be higher, since the qualifier of hardcore would place them in the 'heavy' role play group from the sample of the paper's study. In general in mmos, at least from what we here developers talk about when it comes to using terms like 'hardcore' (which should be defined), 5% seems to be the go-to number and is often slung around when referring to raiders as well.

    Should 5% of the player population not be considered due to their size? They certainly should be considered. MMOs can have considerably large player bases, and that 5% is by no means a small amount. If 5% was not worth consideration, I doubt we'd see Carbine bringing back features like 40-man raids.

    Also one thing to keep in mind. When you're talking about smaller niche sample groups, and especially if you are ascribing 'hardcore' to them, which brings with it the connotation that you're dealing with players that stress that particular activity above ALL other aspects of the game, you are going to deal with great degrees of 'elitism'. I find the suggestion that RPers might be some of the most elitist to go against the data presented in the previously cited paper, however if we are dealing with an even smaller focus group there (the high level RPers, as opposed to mid or low referred to in the sample group), I can see this being an acceptable statement. Any of your 'hardcore' groups are very similar in this regard however; anyone that has been part of a focused progression raiding guild can tell you this will be the case. What we're dealing with here is just simple human behavior.


    ALL THAT ASIDE, my views on the focus topic. How does this negatively or positively affect Role play?

    There's magnificent arguments both for and against having it and I think we have some good examples in other games. As for humanizing the opposing faction, does this detract from the game? It is entirely possible and as previously stated, that divide and unity people presented when it came to their choice of faction, can at times be an important and driving part of a game. Yes there are excellent studies concerning propaganda and dehumanizing an enemy, and they are very much considered fact; World War I and II have incredible examples of this, and there's great contemporary ones as well.

    Does this apply in the world of MMOs? I'm not entirely sure it does. Keep in mind, real life, and the online world have very different rules, and online there's something wonderful and terrible that we all get to toy with, anonymity. In WoW a lack of communication did feel like it would sometimes cause unnecessary conflict and tension, certainly, however I have NEVER felt more tension or seen greater spontaneous conflict than during my time playing EVE. in EVE Online, you can freely communicate with anyone, and there's something wonderful about being able to chat with the person that just podded you and blew up your ship, if anything the exchange in many cases can be quite cordial.

    I've made great connections with people that were rivals in EVE, and made new friends and had new opportunities just from opening up on someone and blowing up their shiny new ship. In WoW it was MUCH harder to make these connections, though they did still happen. I had my rivals in PvP, but we had to go out of our way to communicate with one another. Eventually we started doing so via mumble and other means, and you know what? We still absolutely murdered one another whenever we had the chance. People online do not necessarily behave as they would in real life, in fact, they can be much more cut-throat, and act without the moral constraints they'd normally do so, we definitely see that in EVE.

    So what would this communication add? From the role play perspective there is that potential for building a larger and more cooperative story. Are the benefits of this enough to make the change? I'd say no. Now what would it do for community overall however, would it improve that? If the answer is yes, either way, then it should be done. There-in would lie the crux of the argument however, is it helping or hindering it. I don't think we can conclusively say it does either way and in the end, its really going to come down to how the devs want to try and drive conflict.

    If the game were completely open PvP, I'd say leave the communication open, which does go against what many PvPers no doubt want, but again I'm operating from the EVE school of thought here. Spying is not an issue. If someone wants to spy, they will do it, you will not be able to stop them, and more likely than not they're not going to be using an in-game chat client to do so, they will be using mumble, Vent, whatever, especially in a game with action-based combat like this. That said, the potential of clipping someone with a telegraph and not being able to explain that you didn't mean it is beautiful...oh the delightful misunderstandings.

    So I maybe got a little off topic and just a bit more long-winded than I intended. Do I think allowing cross-faction player communication game hurts faction pride? No, I do not. These players will find the means to communicate, and some games like WoW have even put in the means to communicate with your friends that happen to be on the other side. This communication will happen one way or another. Do I think it can help drive conflict? Sometimes. I think those saying that player communication would diminish this underestimate the powers of boredom and the bloodlust of the PvPer. I can understand the griefing concerns there, but those of the griefer mentality will find a way, harsh language or not.

    So much for mainly addressing the focus topic.

    TL;DR

    1. It would be nice for role play potential if that communication could occur, though if it does not RP will still flourish just fine. RPers are exceptionally good at making their own fun. Personally I'm quite okay with a bit of banter before I shoot you. ;)

    2. I want to taste your delicious tears, let them talk. Sorry, channeling EVE.

    3. I would like this communication, but only if it betters the game as a whole. If it does not, I can do without and will make due.

    4. Yes I actually RP.

    5. I've also come to the conclusion that everyone basically RPs in an MMO, they're RPing themselves in a fantasy world. You are all D&D nerds whether you like it or not, now by proxy and nature of the beast. Roll for initiative.
  2. Vyver

    Vyver "That" Cupcake

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    I find find it odd that when talking about hardcore raiding, 5% is enough to justify any changes necessary. But 5% roleplayers aren't a big enough group to warrant anything.

    5% is 5%

    Also, if you care about hating the rival faction, you're roleplaying. You might not talk in character, you might not have a backstory, but you're playing a role. So yes, this is a roleplaying problem.
    Silais and Apostate like this.
  3. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Which is exactly why you should read the paper linked. "Hardcore" in this sense are those who act and respond in character, ie use ooc when speaking out of character etc. That is all defined in the paper.

    This is laughable. You clearly did not read it, or if you did you refuse to believe it. The bolded part especially is sad. Directly from the paper:


    For those who do engage in it, there are a series of normative rules and structures placed on the practice, including staying in character, developing a back story for that character, and remaining segregated from the non-role players (Moore & Gathman, 2007). Others have noted that there may even be segregation or tension between a dedicated role playing community and the mainstream non-role players (Burn & Carr, 2003).

    No matter how "different" the rules are people tend to treat them just as they do in real life. Look at the work done by Nick Yee (http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001644.php?page=1, tons of others google will show you) that shows it pretty conclusively. Many people choose to make use of virtual worlds differently, but the majority quickly outgrow them as a way to self explore. Essentially, very few actually want a true living breathing world. There is also a huge difference between Eve and Wildstar, you were not at war unless it was by choice. That alone set the precedent.

    Anecdotal is pretty meaningless, especially in the long run.


    Couple issues. First is that Raiders in general are closer to 20-25% of the playerbase. The next big one is raiders are nowhere near as fractured. The last, though arguably biggest, is that raiders are actually playing the game. Rpers are often playing something entirely different. It makes it incredibly difficult to actually cater to in any meaningful way because there is no real metric data.

    Only in the vaguest sense. While you can argue that playing your role in the story is roleplaying they are generally not accepted nor counted as part of the roleplayer demographic.

    Also, still waiting on those numbers that contradict the piles of metric and psych data.
  4. Silais

    Silais Cupcake

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    I want to quote this for emphasis, partially because it's...well, it's about as true as something can be, and because it's something I myself had actually forgotten in the midst of trying to counter the attempts of the trolls to try and derail the conversation in any way they possibly could in order to make it all about them.

    Trigger is correct - in the grand scheme of things, if you are not a roleplayer, this would NOT affect you in any meaningful way. Verbal abusers are easily handled via reporting and/or ignoring, and no amount of regurgitation of the 'spying' thing is going to erase the fact that giving away defenses or plans in a PvP match is something that can ALREADY BE DONE via several means, be they out-of-game voice/text chat, alt rolling, or simply walking up and seeing what ends up killing you.

    And, if you spend all your time in front of a raid boss, unless it's a world event the odds of you even running into the other side is exceedingly remote to begin with.

    The only people that would be really affected by either the presence or absence of an arbitrary language barrier are roleplayers - hardcore, casual, long-time, first-time, or raiders/gladiators who are simply bored and looking to pass a little time before the next push.
  5. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Except this is simply not true. It effects the entirety of the playerbase. It changes the outlook and sets the attitude. Again, there is a reason that propaganda works, and works exceedingly well.
  6. Sassaroth

    Sassaroth Cupcake

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    I truly hope we can communicate. Some people would say there would be trolling and the like snide remarks. There will be anyways in forums, on sites, in your own side. Keeping the ability to not communicate to the other side lessens the ability to role play. I would love to see a bunny and robot have a comical romance.
  7. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    I love seeing how a simple discussion of whether or not two GAME factions can talk to each other in-game gets blown up into a huge fuss over tactics of war and dehumanizing propaganda. I guarantee you that real life has no impact on Carbine's decision to restrict cross-faction communication. It's purely from a moderative perspective. It's an easy fix to quell hurt feelings and anger between two opposing sides within the game. This is the reason why they do it. Quality of life for the devs/GMs and stopping a verbal fight before it can even begin for the players.
  8. Myrrdhinn

    Myrrdhinn Well-Known Cupcake

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    <Moderator growl> Please, stay on topic! This is a game guys.. </Moderator growl>
  9. Angier

    Angier New Cupcake

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    As an avid roleplayer I have to make a confession: I LOVE me a well made faction barrier. The one thing all of us roleplayers love most is experience a living, immersive game world. There are only a few things more powerful in invoking this feeling than animosity and the struggle for supremacy between set enemies. Defining yourself and your place in the world is so much easier if you experience barriers and things that show you "that's not yours to be" because those act as guidelines. Every choice, every aspect of your roleplay is much more meaningful if you can track the consequences along given parameters. And there is nothing instilling more animosity than thr inability to relate and communicate. Which is, why despite the initial reasoning that limiting freedom is bad for roleplay is actually wrong. There will be enough roleplayers on either side and thus enough options for roleplay. Yet, knowing that there is also another side apart from your own invokes the same kind of mystery that carbine wants to achieve by catering to the 1% and allowing them to boast off their gear unachievable for the masses.

    Boundaries work better than freedom for immersion.
    Livnthedream likes this.
  10. Vyver

    Vyver "That" Cupcake

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    But, how can the other side be "mysterious" if most everyone will have characters on both sides?

    If you guys want some real faction pride you should make it where you pick your faction once and you're stuck with that faction forever on every server.


    Wouldn't want anyone experiencing both sides now, that would ruin the mystery.
  11. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Most everyone based on what data?

    Except now you see the issue of those who do want to play through the other sides content just having to go open another account yada yada yada. Its a pretty needless restriction when you can just limit it by server and you reach the same goal.
  12. Vyver

    Vyver "That" Cupcake

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    No it wouldn't be the same! logging onto a different server to play the other faction still lets you see what the other faction has to offer! That would ruin the war-time mystery!


    You can't log off a US soldier and log into a North Korean soldier in real life. That's silly.

    For the full "faction experience" you need to be locked into one faction forever.


    Think of how much pride you would have for your faction if you could only play that faction! It would be amazing!
  13. Myrrdhinn

    Myrrdhinn Well-Known Cupcake

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    While I respect your opinion, I'm glad that won't happen. I wouldn't want to delete my characters to play on the other side, because I do want to play with all races. ^^
    And.. This is a game, not the real life.
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  14. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Even for pure hyperbole that is sad. Different servers play and feel differently because of the players that are on them. Generally its more than enough of a shift to not break it. Besides, it keep the people you are actually fighting against as strangers, which is where a big part of that faction pride hit comes from. Human beings, as social animals, are designed to adapt to whatever social system is around us.

    While it may not be real life, the same psychology still applies. We are still humans, and act as humans, in a virtual place. Its why the majority of people pick what they can identify with upon character creation, and tend to act just as they do in real life - though often with less inhibition.
  15. Vyver

    Vyver "That" Cupcake

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    Sorry, in my Master Plan for 'Faction Pride', even deleting your characters wouldn't let you switch factions. You could only just create more characters of that same faction.


    Faction pride is more important than experiencing the whole game. After all, being able to play the other faction would humanize them! If they want to make a war-time game they need to support it with game mechanics that make it feel like real war-time!
    Trigger likes this.
  16. Myrrdhinn

    Myrrdhinn Well-Known Cupcake

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    I'm glad I'll be playing in a PVE server. :)
    I don't hate the other faction. :p *hides*
  17. Vyver

    Vyver "That" Cupcake

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    You bring up a very good point, the other faction needs to be strangers, so we shouldn't even be able to talk to each other on the forums! Server forums should be faction locked and there shouldn't be a main forum for both groups either. They should also keep tabs on your IP address to make sure you're not talking to people from the other faction on third party messaging services. Chatting with the enemy is not allowed!

    I shouldn't even be talking to you right now! You're not a stranger anymore, you're ruining my faction pride!
  18. Vyver

    Vyver "That" Cupcake

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    I'm merely presenting my opinion, I have no idea what this "rolling" is. I sincerely think that if it's up to developers to provide this imaginary currency of "faction pride" to the players, then they should go all the way with it. If they want to tell a war-time story, make it like a real war!

    Loose lips sink ships!
  19. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    Ruh roh! Carebear alert! Carebear alert!
  20. Sassaroth

    Sassaroth Cupcake

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    with all respect to real life not loggin in from one side to the other. Cassaians and humans both speak the same language as far as I can tell. Plus in real life, I can understand 4 languages, and speak a second well.

    This can be solved easily by doing a few things.
    1. make a faction chat function, and world chat function. This way to can remove yourself from a world channel if you want to roleplay you can not understand them, or just do not want to.
    2. Turning the ability to communicate on or off by yourself. If its is off and someone sends you a /tell from the other side they get the response "the player cannot understand you." And the /tell does not go through.
    3. Have the GMs lock you out if it gets out of hand.

    Granted, trolls gonna be trolls no matter how many people they can talk to. Being able to speak to half the server is not going to phase them in the least. We have /ignore functions. We need to stop being afraid for how many names are trying to hurt us and focus on the sticks and stones. My sticks and stones are /ignore and /attack.

    I do not find locking out players even on the forum is a good idea. I find it horrible. The last thing we should do is start splitting up the community based on what they are playing. What if you roll on multiple servers and in multiple factions? I read the post from Vyver and understand what he is coming from, but its hardly feasible, even in real life. In real life we have CNN, internet, newspapers, google traslators. This is not real life. In real life your character bites it, your account is terminated, your IP is blocked, and all your in-game possessions are confiscation by NCSoft.

    Pretty sure they are not going that route.

    As for communicating third-party, No one is going to be able to block out-of-game communication. With the information age, there is no way. If my IP can't talk to your IP that would be a breech of a few communication and privacy laws. I just need to get on my phone and pull up my Team speak app. I can send a letter, yell to my neighbor, call my friend, send out smoke signals (comical intense face) COMMUNICATE WITH MY MIND! (buzzing noises) LOL!

    BACK ON TRACK

    I love the RP idea of being able to talk to all factions. We can get treaties, have ambassadors, hammer out terms of surrender and victory. Declare war or sue for peace, beg for medical aid for flood rowsdower stampede survivors, marry a bunny to a robot, mock the enemy as they grind upon the walls of our war plot.

    As for gamer side. I would love to talk to the enemy player give them tips on how to play, or get tips on how to prevent my bum from getting handed by him again. I would love to talk about the game, in-game, have a multi-faction representation, point out the nearest settlement if they need directions, compliment a victor, or encourage a looser, or just down right laugh and dance and make comical references to their relatives.

    I know I can be ignored. I know I can be reported, I know that I can get my chat taken away. I just want some trust that I will do the right thing.

    With all that said, I do not think it should be implemented at launch. I would like to see this after the game has been out for at least 1-3 months. Give the community time to get all settled in.

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