1. Hey Guest! If you're more than just a WildStar fan and want to keep up on the latest MMO news, reviews and opinion pieces then I'd like to suggest you visit our sister site MMO Central

Global Cooldown

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Leiloni, Apr 20, 2013.

  1. AnotherJaggens

    AnotherJaggens Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    Likes Received:
    73
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Either universal GCD (wow approach) or spell casting bars (GW2 approach). GW2 approach is more annoying.

    GCD is mostly used as an animation frame and to pace stuff right. If you have a character shooting everything in instant and then let it cool off for cd time - you get a bumpy road.

    Like in GW2 - try an engineer and equip rifle turret. You'll get a rifle shot at your toolbelt to use. That is one of abilities in GW2 I found that don't have any cast time tied to it. Imagine entire game built around this kind of ability - click, poof, cooldown. 5 Abilities - click, click, click, click, click (could bind everything on everything, and just smash keyboard with a fist each time anything is ready), wait for something to come off cd while watching same auto-attack animation playing over and over again.

    GCD in that mix forces a rotation, because you can't spit everything at once. Rotation adds tention and are easier to balance.
    Malorak likes this.
  2. Malorak

    Malorak Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2013
    Likes Received:
    146
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Some minor stuff can be without a GCD - Buffs and stuff. But usually, abilities should have a GCD, or it will result in what AnotherJaggens just wrote.
  3. RedShift

    RedShift New Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2013
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    3
    I thought about this debate, and remembered back to my days of WoW. As a ret paladin and even a death knight, I only ever used about 10 of those abilities on a regular basis. Other spells either didn't pertain to my spec or were rare use spells like divine intervention. So while initially it seems like we are limited, I think that the reality might be different once we get in and play. We can only glean so much about combat by window browsing.
  4. Pariax

    Pariax Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Germany
    please read the previous 4 sites, we took some effort to clarify that having no GCD does NOT mean having no cooldown and casttime. your point is completly invalid.

    good comment, i see we can come to a point we both agree on. We both want a feature that prevents everyone from casting all abilities at once (this is pretty obvious) and we agree that it should be adjustable for every cast seperately, even having skills that ignore it completly. Earlier we agreed that this "cooldown" between a skill and the next should match the animation so it does not feel clunky and like doing nothing in between. This is actually what i refer to animation locked casttimes. GCDs (like the one in WoW and the current one in Wildstar) normally are cooldowns of a set length. Name it as you like but as long as it matches the animation and varies from skill to skill i agree and call it animation locked casttime.
  5. Pariax

    Pariax Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Germany
    its funny how everyone in this thread argues about the same thing (beside you guys talking about amount of skills ;P ) and still manages to misunderstand the other one so there is a disagreement.
    i would like to recap the conclusion basicly everyone in here comes to:

    Proper combat system needs the following:

    - A short time between each cast that prevents you from casting all abilities at once (derp)

    - This timeframe should be matching the abilities animation, otherwise it feels clunky and gives you the feeling you do nothing in between.

    - This timeframe should be varying for different skills for balance purpose and to make up for some greater theorycrafting/ more action oriented combat with faster and lower skillcasts

    - Cooldowns or ressource systems to prevent you from casting the same ability over and over again.

    no matter how we call this, do i missed anything or can anyone agree with this?
    wormed and Malorak like this.
  6. TeoH

    TeoH Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2013
    Likes Received:
    295
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Alright clearly there's a language barrier here, i don't think we're going to get very far with this and i think i've explained the point well enough for the people reading to follow me, so i'm just going to drop it and move on.
    Pariax likes this.
  7. AnotherJaggens

    AnotherJaggens Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    Likes Received:
    73
    Trophy Points:
    28
    No! You are wrong! You are so wrong, so wrong, so wrong, so wrong, that it makes me all happy!

    This is a WoW style combat! Why? Because in WoW that 3 hit animation gonna be a channeling spell. Well, except in WoW you can't move while channeling. Actually, there you can't move while casting anything which is not instant. And channeling abilities have one thing about them - they use their GCD at start of a cast, not in end like other spells. Looks like they don't have GCD at all.

    So without action bar and any more official info anything that this video provides us - there is a GCD of 1 second or less. Or no GCD. Let the battle go on!
  8. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2012
    Likes Received:
    629
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Orlando, FL
    Yup. There are moments GW2 suffers from that already... and part of that is the issue with the limited number of skills available at one time, similar to what we will see here in WS.
  9. AnotherJaggens

    AnotherJaggens Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    Likes Received:
    73
    Trophy Points:
    28
    GW2 does suffer, but from another thing in my opinion - GCD is replaced by cast time entirely. Which is good idea in theory: it makes combat look all seamless, make it more dynamic, yadda-yadda-pr-talk. In game we have a very loose combat system. You can't time properly because there is no GCD frame to do that. If you use instant cast too early - it overlaps casting time of something else. If you hit instant too late... You still gonna stop casting of something else, because skill 1 is like autoattack, but with a bar. And so rarely there are EJs in GW2, discussing optimal rotation and other things sane people don't care about while playing.
  10. Pariax

    Pariax Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Germany
    while most of the syndroms you mentioned are correct and nasty problems in GW2 (as far as i know they implemented spell queuing in beta already so you dont have to time perfectly) these are not problems resulting from an animation time combat system in general. GW2 messed up combat in a lot of ways because they tried to get rid of everything normal MMOs did (throwing holy trinity ended up in every class doing pretty much the same <- highly exaggerated). The missing depth of combat in GW2 results from the sum of odds in the combat system, not from the lack of GCDs.
  11. wormed

    wormed Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2013
    Likes Received:
    44
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Can people please stop talking about 'rotations'? It truly has absolutely NOTHING to do with any conversation about GCD.
  12. Outlaw

    Outlaw Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2013
    Likes Received:
    125
    Trophy Points:
    43
    That depends on whether they go with standard GCD or use animations. If they're using animations it'll make a huge difference in rotation, simply because how long an animation is and how much damage the skill does will be important factors in maximizing dps for pve.
  13. wormed

    wormed Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2013
    Likes Received:
    44
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Theorycrafting has nothing to do with a conversation about whether or not GCD or animations are utilized. Why? Because you theorycraft AFTER that which has been confirmed. Rotation conversation can come after. It has nothing to do with anything at this time.
  14. Daktarelis

    Daktarelis New Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2013
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    3
    GCD is there for a reason. Lack of GCD limits the amount of instant cast damage abilities that a character can have at the same time, for example. Limited action bars partially solve this - you can only have as many as you can fit into the action bar, but still. Say your class has seven intant-cast damage abilities, that you put in each slot on your action bar. Then, activate them all in quick succession - and your target will most likely be dead in less than a second. Imbalanced, right? But, you can make sure, that the cumulative damage from all 7 abilities does not kill another player that is your level or something. But then it generally means you can't have instant cast abilities that deal any significant amount of damage. Also, it changes the way instant casts work. It's no longer a choice between "need damage now, finish him" and "need sustained damage, use ability with cast time". It's "use instant casts every time it's off cooldown", because it's always a dps increase. I could probably think of more drawbacks of not having a GCD. So yeah, it does serve a role, though I'm not saying it's absolutely impossible to do without it.
    Zerdav likes this.
  15. Outlaw

    Outlaw Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2013
    Likes Received:
    125
    Trophy Points:
    43
    You may not know the skills or what gcd system will be implemented, but you DO know which you would prefer and how it would effect your play. Some people were discussing theorycrafting in regards to each different form of GCD (static or animation) and I believe it makee sense to discuss how rotation would be effected in those situations.

    Also, Daktarelis, I don't think anyone is saying there shouldn't be a GCD, we're just not agreeing on which system to use. Sometimes we MMO players get a bit too caught up in defending our position to the point that we might lose track of the original discussion entirely.
  16. Zyfreit

    Zyfreit Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Had written up a long ass post about this animation vs GCD stuff and just deleted it. Basically for me it comes down to this:

    Autoattack predicates the necessity of a GCD to limit "burst". This allows healers time to react. Otherwise to counter burst all your skills would be relatively weak if you could fire off 5 attacks almost at the same time. Even if you gave those skills their own cooldowns, you could still dump out a ton of damage within a couple seconds when those cooldowns align.

    Animation delays can work if 1) you can move while performing the animations, 2) instant casts don't lock you into a 1.5 second animation and 3) they are all similar in length. I don't want to be rooted and I don't want to be stuck in the middle of my epic 3 seconds power move while my target dances away tossing rocks at me and laughing.

    Ultimately animation delays are GCDs, just more varied, and tied up in a prettier package. I got more into my SWTOR rotations from a visual perspective than I ever did with anything in WOW. The delays, be they animated or GCD, do allow for a more sustainable combat experience (takes more than 5 seconds to kill something/someone of similar level/gear) that also has a reasonable amount of burst (you can put out the hurt when needed, but you can't 100 to 0 in a single cycle).

    As for me, I like animation delays dictating my play. The slight variability in delays (hopefully 0.5 to 1.5s) makes the rotations more interesting, and more enjoyable than hitting a button every second.
  17. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Likes Received:
    187
    Trophy Points:
    43
    EQ2 had a system without GCD's that worked really well. There were no instant cast abilities, instead every spell or combat art had at minimum a .5 sec cast time (.25 with cast speed) and then regardless of the skills casting time you had a .5sec recharge time (.25 with recovery) before you could use another ability.


    Because you had no skills without a cool down, there was really no set rotation, and contrary to what others have said, i found it made dpsing much more challenging. Instead of the optimal rotation being set in stone, you had to react to what buffs were up at any given time. Should i save my big hits for the next time warp/Jcap? Is it worth using fast casting but weaker hits to get more VC procs off? There were a lot of things to think about at any given time in addition having to manage 20+ cool downs for single target damage.

    For some of you that haven't played without a GCD, you might be thinking that a class that could use 2 abilities every second would destroy everyone in pvp. However you need to realize that healers had many ways of dealing with burst. Hots/wards/reactives all worked to give healers a way to buff players effective hp and most healers also got short cast time heals to counteract burst.

    That said, the lack of a gcd really only worked because in eq2 you had so many abilities. In wildstar with 10 skills you realistically cant have all your skills have cooldowns. You would run into the same problem as GW2 where you use your 2-9 and then just spam an auto attack. I do hope that they give all classes a 1sec GCD, after playing with a 1sec GCD in TSW rift feals really slugish.
  18. Flawz

    Flawz Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2013
    Likes Received:
    74
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    North Carolina
    watching video's I like how they have the CDs... its Global but some skills have longer recharge so you cant just spam your hardest hits but you can spam some of your attacks. Kinda having some skills priority but also "as Needed".

    So hitting a backstab type attack has 8 sec cooldown.. all the rest of your abilities are on global spamming them waiting on your backstab.. all are on the same global i think with the exeption of a few skills...

    I could be totally wrong, all i can think about is chicken and season fries right now !
  19. Zyfreit

    Zyfreit Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    8
    How exactly is that different than a GCD?
  20. AnotherJaggens

    AnotherJaggens Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    Likes Received:
    73
    Trophy Points:
    28
    So there was GCD, but it was .5s and not called GCD. Smart move, SOE.

    While this does sound fun to have no cd and a choice based on current situation, rather than optimal rotation, there is a also conditions required to make it working properly. For example a current state of warrior in WS (based loosely on waht I saw at pax 2013 demo): warrior has attackign abilities of different kinds, warrior specific resource (3 red orbs atop of skillbar) and whirling strike. You build up orbs by doing skills (all of them or only some of them? would make sense that you have a choice to build up orbs or do more damage, depending on whenever it's a single target ot not), and then spend those orbs on whirl.

    While migrating combat to EQ2 system orbs would either have to go, or rebalanced until their impact is insignificant (you can prove me wrong on that. was close to 20 min phased out thinking whenever there is a way to avoid both). All that is avoided by keeping cd+gcd system intact, so why bother?

Share This Page