1. Hey Guest! If you're more than just a WildStar fan and want to keep up on the latest MMO news, reviews and opinion pieces then I'd like to suggest you visit our sister site MMO Central

Hardmodes and you

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by JarNod, Jun 29, 2012.

  1. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2012
    Likes Received:
    815
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Moscow, ID
    I just want to start a discussion about Hard Modes (or Heroics as they're known in WoW). The pros and cons as I've been able to understand are as follows:

    Pros:
    1. It's easier for the developers to just increase numbers for difficulty and less time which would allow more focus on other aspects of the game.
    2. Players will start seeing all the content. In SWTOR, at max level, players would run through instances that were available from 10-50. These dropped nice loot for 60's and I ended up running through dungeons that I skipped cause I was ahead of the leveling curve.
    3. I'm sure there are more pros, I just can't think of them.

    Cons:
    1. Repeating dungeons ends up feeling incredibly boring. I spent months clearing MC with my vanilla WoW guild, but after clearing normal EV in SWTOR, we got bored of running the same instance over and over again. You know how all the fights go, you just need to gear up more.
    2. Feels like a cheap way to get out of making new content.
    Any other thoughts?
  2. Zap-Robo

    Zap-Robo Administrator • King Cupcake

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2011
    Likes Received:
    1,613
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Youngstown, OH
    From a story perspective it's lazy and makes no sense! If you want this implemented then you need to explain it away from a lore perspective (to my mind - but then I want everything to be explained away by lore of one type or another!).
  3. Evion

    Evion WildStar Haiku Winner 2012

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2011
    Likes Received:
    695
    Trophy Points:
    93
    On the one hand I do like the option to run a dungeon that I may have missed while leveling due to out-leveling the content. It's fun when it's still a challenge. However, having to grind heroics for points definitely became repetitive, and there's some you begin to dread in the randomizer (heroic Deadmines again?!). I do agree with Zap that there should be some kind of lore explanation. That, and there should be a variety of dungeons/content to do at max besides just heroics. I see max-level dungeons as a way for smaller groups to play together, and something that can lead into raiding for those that enjoy it.
  4. Tiktak

    Tiktak Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2012
    Likes Received:
    88
    Trophy Points:
    28
    At at a certain point (Wrath of the Lich King anyone?) Where the Heroics might end up being a laughing stock. I have a friend who insists the normal dungeons where harder simply because you didn't have the gear to do them. Everyone being in a mix of greens, blues and even levels.

    I hope they add Path content to all these dungeons if they do them. Heroic or not. Also...why need Heroic at all? Simply Scale the player to the dungeons, so it doesn't matter what level you are, if you jump into the dungeon, your the right level for it.

    As to Phat Lutes. That stuff should be from Trade Skills and Raiding.
    Snaggles likes this.
  5. Dyraele

    Dyraele "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2011
    Likes Received:
    312
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Arizona, USA
    I for one hate doing the same raids/instances over and over. I don't care if it is in a harder mode or not, still basically the same thing. I will complete it once and never go back unless a guild member or friend needs to do it. Otherwise, I move on to other things.

    So, with that in mind, I hope they come up with something different on these dungeons that pop up in the middle of nowhere. If they pop up and turn out to be the same things over and over, that will get boring.
  6. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2012
    Likes Received:
    815
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Moscow, ID
    I don't know about scaling people down to dungeons. If you do that, then you can't have max level loot drop in those dungeons effectively making anything below max level a "waste of time" for the high level player. Sure, there will be guildies helping each other out, but scaling them down to a level 45 equivalent would mean that level 45 loot would drop, good for the low level, bad for the high level.

    I don't like having heroics at all, I just prefer new content at max level rather than running old dungeons over again. If I want to see them (like Evion said) I'll run friends through them to help them out some.
  7. Tiktak

    Tiktak Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2012
    Likes Received:
    88
    Trophy Points:
    28
    I don't think Hard Modes for 'Leveling' Dungeons are needed. In Raid Content? Absolutely. Bonus uber lutes for killing a raid boss within a set time, having no-one killed by his stupidly overpowered mega attack that your -supposed- to not get hit by. That kind of thing. Raid Content should -always- have a group try to take it to the next level. You know?

    Max level dungeons should offer gear to allow you to enter the lowest 'tier' raid content without needing to resort to 'Hard Modes'
  8. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2011
    Likes Received:
    454
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Denmark
    What about right level and encounter size. I am guessing something like that is not easy to balance or it would be in use somewhere. Imagine an instance that scale to the encounter power. The same challenge wether you enter as solo, group or multiple groups. Kind of like Diablo 3 has it for shared games, the minions of hell grows in strength and your loot is still your loot when joining others game.

    If it had agnostic level also (able to play in level uneven groups), then the loot would have to adapt to the single players actual level too.

    Still requires balancing so the challenge is the same on all levels.
  9. Tiktak

    Tiktak Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2012
    Likes Received:
    88
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Well in this case I was thinking balanced for a standard 5 man party. It doesn't matter what level each party member is, they all get busted down to the right dungeon level.

    EG: Say your grouping for a level 15-20 dungeon you missed while levelling, you decide to go group for it because all dungeons are scaled anyway.

    You find a group and start the dungeon, your stats are all busted down to level 20 scale and you go with a bunch of guys through the instance.

    I think all dungeon hard modes should be built into the dungeon itself, for the appropriate level. Why should level capped players have all the fun?
  10. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2012
    Likes Received:
    815
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Moscow, ID
    But would the loot that drops be only for level 15-20?
  11. Tiktak

    Tiktak Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2012
    Likes Received:
    88
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Why wouldn't it be?
  12. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2012
    Likes Received:
    815
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Moscow, ID
    So running lower level dungeons would be pointless for higher levels. They couldn't run their friends through because it's scaled down, and it wouldn't benefit them from loot because the loot for a 15-20 dungeon is level 15-20.
  13. Tiktak

    Tiktak Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2012
    Likes Received:
    88
    Trophy Points:
    28
    How would you have it done then?
  14. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2012
    Likes Received:
    815
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Moscow, ID
    Personally, I wouldn't have any heroic modes of dungeons. I think it's just a cheap way for developers to get "new content" out. I prefer that the low level dungeons aren't run by max levels on a heroic mode. If a max level wants to run 4 low levels through a lower level dungeon, I see no problem with that. It helps quicken the pace of leveling for those lower levels.

    I had other ideas, but I got distracted from work. I'll have to get back to them later.
  15. MiZTiiX

    MiZTiiX Cupcake

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2012
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    8
    you should just scale down to the level of the dungeon
  16. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2012
    Likes Received:
    815
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Moscow, ID
    What would be the point of a higher level helping a lower level then?
  17. Tiktak

    Tiktak Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2012
    Likes Received:
    88
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Helping a Low Level buddy? Playing with a friend of yours?

    I can't -STAND- bring dragged through a dungeon with some max level guy soloing everything. Dullest game play ever. Following a guy around and looting corpses is not the way to go. Bust them high levels down to the dungeon or even zone! Same goes for dragging an unfortunate buddy about a dungeon to get him exp and loots. Neither person gets any enjoyment out of it and the dungeon is trivalized.

    You already have the advantages of more skills, better gear and you (presumably) know the dungeon.

    And...if your 'boosting' a buddy through a low level dungeon, why do you even want the loot? Surely it's for him to gear up and/or vendor?
  18. Tiktak

    Tiktak Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2012
    Likes Received:
    88
    Trophy Points:
    28
    As I was typing out the above post I had a brainwave.

    Compromise:

    When grouping with a lower level character, you get the -option- of busting yourself down to their level. How about that?
    Evion likes this.
  19. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2012
    Likes Received:
    815
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Moscow, ID
    You're absolutely right that the dungeon gets trivialized. As a tank in WoW, I didn't learn how to tank until ZF at level 45, mostly because I had friends who would run me through the dungeon if I asked. But, I would also run my friends through low level dungeons and one of the biggest reasons for that was because if you were max level, the dungeon would be done in 20 minutes. Instances such as DeadMines and Gnomeregan (sp?) were awful for that level because they lasted so long and because people didn't know what they were doing at such a low level, but you could get the PHAT loots from the dungeon and complete the quests for the dungeon very quickly.

    I do understand your point, but if I'm helping a friend out, I'd rather get him through the dungeon relatively quickly without having to rely on other PuGs (if it's just the two of us) so I can help him and get back to whatever I was doing earlier.

    I noticed your last post too, and I think that's a fair compromise, but a difficult one to implement.
  20. Evion

    Evion WildStar Haiku Winner 2012

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2011
    Likes Received:
    695
    Trophy Points:
    93
    That's actually exactly what I was thinking. Have a pop-up option alerting the player that they out-level the content, and would they like to be scaled down to X level?

    It would be a really nice option for me because I have friends that level way faster than myself (more freetime/skip more content) and those that level way slower than myself. I really enjoy getting to play with the later group, but I'm usually trying to catch up with the prior group while having fun, so I end up far out-pacing my slower friends. However, it's terribly boring for all of us when running with someone who is just solo-ing the content. I end up standing around a bit so they get a chance to see some of the mechanics/lore of the dungeon, then BOOM one-shot and continue onwards. It's just not as fulfilling and fun as the times I'm able to run with them at an even level! Sure it's tougher and takes longer, but we get to share the challenges and all feel like we accomplished something rather than utter steamrolling!

    However, I do think there is a place for steamrolling when helping friends, thus the option to scale down is a great way to allow that freedom!

Share This Page