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Hardmodes and you

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by JarNod, Jun 29, 2012.

  1. Billco

    Billco Cupcake-About-Town

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    Easy there tiger :) I don't "Think" Black Wolf meant it quite as you've taken it.

    Personally I agree with the idea to some degree. I'd love to see stuff that can be worked through over a long time. Like an uber top end guild, can charge in and clear a raid in a few hours. But a casual guild could maybe do an hour a week for a few months or something ya know?

    So ultimately the games not gated by if you can play 12 hours a day every day, but stuff isn't given to you either.

    You still get that achievement at the end of it - yeah omg we cleared that. Just takes a whole lot longer.

    <---Speaking from experience here as I used to sit at the comp all damn day and game, now I have a wife & kid and , unfortunately, I can't dedicate that much time. Hell I'm lucky if I could run heroics anymore because I just didn't know when I was gonna need to afk which meant I had no chance of raiding at all by the time I migrated into swtor. I didn't cry about it on the forums mind like everyone else seemed to but It would have been nice to have an alternative option.
  2. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    I am sorry, but there is actually a lot of special snowflakes out there, who exactly mean it like that.

    They do not feel their server firsts are special anymore, because there are people who get around to do a server 100.000 at some point 4 month after themselves.

    It's an odd sentiment in my opinion.
  3. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    Age. :D No serious, nothing of course. The times that I was chasing a server first are long gone. But I wrote that little story not because I wanted to make clear that I got a server first, but trying to explain how important it is for people to achieve something in the game that not everyone can do. That 10% of content that only the 'best of the best' are able to do. If you make content available for everyone the difficulty of the game will drop. For example the last raid in WoW (Dragon Soul) was a disappointment. If I compare the raids in vanilla to Cataclysm over time I can say the old raids were way more epic then the last one where everybody could experience raiding.

    But I see this from a perspective of someone who experienced hardcore raiding to someone who went casual with a hardcore approach. So, I'm not entirely unbiased.

    Again, no. But you have to be careful. If you make content easier over time before the hardcore people are done, you take away the challenge. That is why I said (I believe in another thread) that I think it is best to make content easier (by either a buff or a boss nerf) after a next raid release.

    It is a fine line to walk on. In my view Blizzard's fault (sorry again WoW, but I played that game for 7 years) was that in dungeons epic gear dropped. What this meant is that after a new content patch the new dungeons dropped better gear then the 'old' raid. What they should have done imho, is no epic gear drops in dungeons and make the rare gear slighty less good then the raid gear in the old raid with nerfing at the same time. The new raid is then only possible to do with gear from the old raid. This gives the hardcore raiders a extra edge of being 'the best of the best' and at the same time the casuals a chance to see the old raid as well and at the same time to get upgrades and earn that epic gear. It makes everyone feel special when you obtain epic gear.
  4. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    The better gear I believe they put in, so mediocro guilds would still have a chance to work on the same stuff as the hardcore ones. This is actually something that should go along the line of what you want, because the people who tries and fails will have a even better idea about how good the server first guild was. They know that the top progression and top achievements only comes by with hard dedicated work and skills.

    If people have no sense of how hard it is, they can not appreciate the feat of those, who actually completes it.

    People, who never tries because they are stuck in the past raid content or just don't care about the content evolving around raids, is not going to spend time to admire server first and raiders, who did it all on heroic, why should they, they are not aiming for the same circles and in all likelyhood will not be playing together, because raiders mostly stick to themselves, their guild and likeminded geared people.

    About server first, maybe that is why I do not get why it is such a disaster that even the biggest "nobody" to kill something over time with help from new dungeon gear and overtime extreme raid buff. I had server firsts in EQ. I know that feeling of pride over doing something noone else has done, of getting there first. I felt special about it, but noone else could get server firsts after my guild, so why should I care that someone got second, third or even 100.000 after my first. Grats to them.

    Maybe the conflict of interest in regards to making raids mainstream after the hardcore have had a chance to get there first is that some is in it for the fame, to get that acceptance of their skills and superiority acknowledged, not just by binary code but by the community, and yes, it is a juicy thing -- while others are in it because there is a mountain to climb, if someone else are able to get to the top after road and steps are carved into the mountain side (and symbolisme here is that some of those first out there does carve the road out by posting walkthroughs and tips), it does not matter, because they smurfing did it the hard way.

    so yeah, I still don't get why it is a problem giving people the chance to keep up with trying current content, it will after all still be the hardcore progression guilds who get there first, or second, or third, well, let's just say top 10, since that will make me feel my WoW carreer was special too, after I had to step down my raiding activities and choose to do so there :p
  5. Sprby

    Sprby Cupcake

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    I think you got this notion of hardcore raider and raider all wrong. This just in your head. As you said earlier all players should not have access to the whole game is ridiculous. There is nothing hardcore implementing mechanics that will restrict access to content by pushing more <REDACTED> in the way for real players to go through. What it sounds like to me is you want to make it cozy for yourself.
  6. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    They would still work on the same stuff, only a few weeks / months later. They still get that feeling of having accomplished something. It shows on your character, because you wear epic gear. If they want it faster, they have to step up and be more serious and invest more time. You can't have everything. Although lately it seems that is just what is the trend.
  7. SirRobin

    SirRobin Cupcake-About-Town

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    Hard modes? Personally, I normally don't stick with a game long to bother with the hard modes. I would also rather have new content instead of old content with bigger health bars.
  8. Sprby

    Sprby Cupcake

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    That's just nonsense.
  9. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    Actually, SirRobin has a good point and I agree with him. Hardmodes are an easy way to give the developers more time to create more content.

    I would prefer dynamic content over any hardmode. Like Diablo 3. That way the content is always different.
  10. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    LR will open later than normal normal. The hardcore guilds has one week or so to beat it before anyone, who worked their asses off in dungeons until then are able to enter LR and do the first raid on easy mode.

    I have not heard anything about changes to how they push the raid buff out on normal, but access to LR would actually be just as "good" and people can practice - unless getting bad habits on easy mode will hurt their guild progression raids :p
    With RF around Blizzard should maybe postpone the raid buff a week or two.

    I do hope they make LR/normal/heroic same lockout, so guild raiders do not feel obligated to queue up on LR outside their normal raid hours for initial gearing up.

    I suspect some guilds lower down the progression scale will still hang on to LR for gearing and waiting for guildies to get levelled and ready. I was not around when LR first came out, so I do not know how many problems there is, when noone really knows, what they are doing outside a the organisation of a guild :p
  11. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    I agree.

    I also wish hardmode was more of a dynamic thing, if certain conditions are met (timing, noone dying, etc.), you get something extra in the way of more encounters, extra adds, path objectives that pops something else, a portal to a random ultra rare boss. Something that is not always the same, depends on how the raid dungeon got laid out for you.
    Black Wolf likes this.
  12. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    Well I hope there isn't even a LFR kind of option in Wildstar to be honest. Not even an Heroic version. Just one difficulty, maybe with dynamic content like I said above.
  13. Sprby

    Sprby Cupcake

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    Look,
    Heroics support the point system that WoW has going for them. You are giving off your opinions as statements that does not consider the whole circle. Talking about Heroics is talking about Justice Points, the merchants, the whole ladder up to the raids, that's the whole endgame system. Your saying you have a problem with that and the thing you say as a substitute is have more dungeons, like dynamic runs. Consider the whole system your talking about.
  14. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    I'm not even sure why you even reply. All you have to say is that we don't discuss things properly in your view. I never talked about having more dungeons or raids, I just said want to see them differently then in, for example, WoW. This discussion isn't about Justice Points, merchants or whatever. It's about hardmodes and their plusses and negatives.

    So to go back to the discussion about hardmodes, I would prefer no different modes in any dungeon or raid what so ever. I rather see them invest more time in perfecting a dynamic and fun dungeon with kinds of different adds, path objectives and such things instead. This way you invest time into something that has a replay value, even after you got all the gear you want. In WoW they tried that with timed runs that gave you a unique bear mount for example. It was a good reason to go back the that place.

    Hardmodes are basically what the name implies, harder to finish. It's for the most part the same content with tougher mobs and better loot. There is no reason to go back after you got what you wanted.
  15. Sprby

    Sprby Cupcake

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    Go back to the topic "first post" we are talking about hardmodes "heroics" same difference. What I am saying to you is that there is a system around heroics, your statements have no real value when you say I want different dungeon. It's not even the same discussion, taking away hardmodes is taking away the ladder system to the raid for example like in wow.
    What what are you on? Snapping at me like that.
  16. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

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    I know that feeling... It was the whole reason I started to raid to begin with.
    Being in what I guess would be called a progression guild was cool. Never the first to do anything that's for sure, but knowing what I had worked for meant something. It's what I have been saying to friends for a long time now. Loot seems to easy to get now. The steady "progression" to the top seems muddied and lessens the meaning.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is the more time you have to invest in a toon the more attached you are to it. Subsequently the more likely you are to continue to play. Imo that is the real reason for WoW's success. They did a really good job of balancing reward vs effort.

    I agree with the philosophy that content should be accessible to all... Dang, I hate to give props to Blizz again, but nerfing older content down shortly before new stuff came out was a good way to let everyone get in on the fun without lessening the achievements of the people who went first.

    Just my opinion though, your mileage may vary.
  17. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    I think that is where they did go wrong. Nerfing old content, I can live with that. I even think it is a good thing if you make it optional. But they started nerfing content even before new content (raid) was out.

    My guild was still progressing through Dragon Soul for example when they started to nerf the raid. We killed Deathwing eventually with a 10% buff. For us the content was still new, we didn't kill Deathwing before (if you don't count LFR).

    The only reason they did this imho was to extend the life of the raid longer. They knew there wasn't anything more raid content coming before the next expansion. They used the same content in a way. To keep more players playing the last released content. That is just lazy. They should have come with a new raid encounter instead. It's just laziness. With 10 million subscribers at that time it's not a money issue.
  18. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    I actually read a thread where they explained how they came about doing the buff as they do. They have a whole team watching trends from raid logs, and the timing for the buffs is calculated from their observations of not top end guild but all the struggling middle level guilds. They turn up the buff to give hope of finally getting the objective done, when they can see a burnout exodus among the little league is the other alternative. Blizzard like to keep their players :)

    I can understand their motivation. You see, a few top end guild members leaving in a huff due to the epic giveaway party and feeling less special snowflakes, because some guilds needing a 30% buff to manage to do what they did, is a lot less in numbers than the middle league struggling guilds burning out on trying to down the objective for months and more month.

    Top guilds are covetted and getting more recruits than they want, their members are generally more sure about getting the objective done, it is not just an illusive hope, because raiding is what they do, and the top guilds have their pick in skilled and dedicated recruits - if not, then the game itself is stagnating, or player community is turning away from raiding as a parttime job.

    The middle guilds not only has to deal with downing the objective, they have to deal with recruitment issues, with flunctuating attendance or members who only have time for half the weekly raids or have to leave and hour early or arrive an hour late, add to that the organisation nightmare of people, who are not all fully dedicated, half of them not following guild communication, and they have toddlers needing to be bedded halfway through the raid - but that is what the guild leaders have available, so they have to deal, because setting up guild rules like they were a top guild would kill them off for sure.
    Burnoout not only in membership, but also in leadership, is a lot more common in that section of the progression list. As I said, Blizzard like to keep their players.

    Imho, it is genius on Blizzards part to use tools to prevent burnout in the players that makes up most of their player base. Including the LR for those of us, who loves and are competent at raiding, but can not commit to a schedule anymore. Me and my friends queue up together and chitchat about raiding on vent during the raid, so we do not miss a step on the encounters. Btw, I loved public raids in Rift.

    I agree, there could easilly have been 1-2 more raid patches out, or a twist to the current ones, easter egg types of things opening up along the way before a new expansion, or maybe a world boss or three.
  19. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    That is the official explanation yes. But that doesn't work for me personally. To be clear, I'm only speaking for myself here.

    At this time, I'm a casual hardcore raider kind of player. At first that combination seems odd or even contradicting. So let me explain it better. I don't have the time to raid 4 times a week. I can squeeze in 2 evenings, maybe 3 if they don't happen to often. But real life comes before the game. I think you can call that casual.

    Now comes the hardcore part. When I raid, I'm dead serious. I want to down bosses. I invest time in getting to know tactics, I will sure that my gear is optimized, bring my food and buffs, I clear my schedule so I can participate fully and don't have to go after an hour and I make sure I'm on time to maximize raiding time. Of course there is time for jokes and fun between bosses and killing trash. But when on a boss I'm concentrated and do my best to perform like the best I can. I expect others do the same.

    That is my casual / hardcore approach. I realize that not everyone is like that. You have many types of players. Currently Blizzard caters 3 raid difficulty levels. LFR, Normal and Heroic. Heroic is for the 100% hardcore. I think we all can agree on that. My approach would fit in the Normal difficulty. The casual group you talking about SiegaPlays is the LFR. That is how I see it. We can discuss if I see it right or wrong.

    If Blizzard starts nerfing / buffing Normal difficulty too soon, they take my hardcore thing away. They remove the challenge for me and I get disappointed. Imho, if you can't be serious about raiding, clear your schedule, make sure you don't get disturbed etc etc, you should do LFR. That is how I see it. The difficulty of the LFR is a joke for a more serious raider, but for everyone else it is still a challenge.

    But like I said before I don't want to have difficulty levels in raids at all. It's rehashing content and it's being lazy as a developer. Key words: dynamic content! If raiding falls into the 10-20% category so be it. You can't have everything.
  20. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    Nope, but as Blizzard has shown, you can almost have it. So we will have to agree on disagreeing, because there is no way I am going to think LFR ruins more than it adds to the game as a whole.

    My hardcore is the same as your hardcore. I am dead serious, when I raid, which is why I have no room for gossip and fooling around during an encounter, not even in LFR, we only talk about the raid. That is how I do my normal/heroic raids.

    I can't anymore. One thing is getting too old for night raiding (from EQ1 5 night a week, over WoW 3 nights to Rift 2 nights), the other is the pure commitment to a guild. I can't do less than commit to the purpose of the guild and the best of the guild, I would suggest stuff for the guild, that would actually harm myself, because it was the good for the guild. Especially if it is a raiding guild. If I commit, I expect my guildies -- those that are raiders -- to commit at least in respect to scheduled content, and my last WoW raid guild showed me, that as some point, they have to let go of standards in new recruits, when the pickings are slim.

    The first time someone needs 30 minutes into a raid schedule to finish their PVP group or someone wants to use their PVP spec in the raid, I will blow a fuse - I am getting too old for that type of blood pressure :p
    If I can show up on time at 2 AM or 4 AM in the middle of the night with my a-game for 3-5 hours, then they smurfing well can show me the same curticy of being ready on time during their own prime time!

    The only option in WoW for me now is LFR, because middle league normal will not work well with that. You can call me elitist for expecting much of guildies, who raids - though it would fit ill with me wanting current raids to be mainstream over time, and you disapproving that.

    My expectations to the other players in the LFR groups are not high, but there has been pleasant surprises, and even if the raid wipes on silly and known stuff, the team usually improves every attempt. If not, I have the option to bail knowing someone else will step into my spot within minutes. Bailing is however not my first choice. I can even do it any time of the day.

    Half my interest in MMORPG steems in the fact that I love raiding, giving it up because the expected norm is to have raiding firmly attached to guilds is going to make a game a lot less appealing to me.

    Blizzard has been so smart to realize, that not all players fits into that mold and made LFR. It may need tweaking, such as same lockout as normal and heroic, so guild raiders do not feel obligated to run both, but overall it brings more to the game as a whole, than it takes away.

    Personally I'd rather see just LFR and normal mode, where the heroic/hardmode content change into more of a dynamic element to certain required conditions when doing normal mode, which not only makes normal mode more lively after a while, but also make it a bit more special, than just the one step up from LFR.

    We have talked about wanting more dynamic content in regards to raids, so I think you are with me on that part, though not the LFR part.

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