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Healers in wildstar

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by Bazeleel, Nov 21, 2013.

  1. Iskiab

    Iskiab Cupcake

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    I'm still hoping there's a melee dps and healer option. Right now the classes seem to be either tanking and melee dps or healing and ranged dps, I'm hoping they mix that up.
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  2. Leiloni

    Leiloni Cupcake-About-Town

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    I have a feeling Medic will be closer range, either melee or mid range. So that may be your closest bet.
  3. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    I healed in Neverwinter, Forge (PVP arena game with free-form aim) and Firefall (a class based MMOFPS). I currently play Smite and wish there were more diverse support skills in that game (tired of PBAoE). I understand and am looking forward to the healing in Wildstar, and also understand that there are players who like the tab targeted healing, or who are intimidated by, or just bad at, more action style healing, which is why it is a good thing there is an option for them. I won't be playing an Esper (because of the healing and overall class design/feel), but I am sure it will be a great fit for others, and the healers all need to have a different style and different roles. I think that action combat is fun, but I am tired of the argument that healers in tab-targeted games just stare at the UI like we are back in 1999.
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  4. Leiloni

    Leiloni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Meh I've played Neverwinter and Forge and SMITE and none of them are really all that awesome. Try healing with a Priest in TERA, that's a bit more exacting and aimed in the way that Wildstar has aimed heals and very specific sizes and shapes for where the healing will go. It's the closest thing I can think of. Neverwinter has those big PBAoEs and things for the most part which I agree is not so fun. Telegraphs are going to be better.
  5. teh_ninjaneer

    teh_ninjaneer Cupcake-About-Town

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    I feel like this discussion between freeform/tab-target heals is becoming similar to "Wildstar has 40-man raids! This game is only for the 1%!"

    Carbine seems to want to attract a wide array of people and give them options. I say that a lot when commenting on this site. Options.

    So it's looking like one class, the Esper, will have a few tab-targeted heals. It gives those who enjoy that style of healing an option. If you feel as though you're super-uber and your background in an_awesome_action_MMO_04 makes you leeter than the rest, then you can either not slot your Esper with those types of heals or play another class that does not have those heals.

    Options.

    I like to heal. I like CC.

    I've played a lot of games; which ones are irrelevant.

    I might play the Esper. It looks kinda neat to me. If I do slot targeted heals, I will not stare at the UI.

    Or maybe I will play a tank this time. Or maybe something else.

    Options.
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  6. Leiloni

    Leiloni Cupcake-About-Town

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    I haven't said anything about skill. It's about what's fun. Not sure why you're taking such an offense to what I enjoy in MMO's. My criticism of the Esper's healing is centered around the idea that they don't have enough freeform healing for my tastes. I was looking forward to playing that class but I have been disappointed by what we found out about their skillset.
  7. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    Mechanically, according the Devs this is going to be true; what the Devs cannot say is that this is going to be true emotionally, for everybody. There are going to be people that are intimidated by free targeting (at least at first), or just plain don’t like them.

    WildStar is not going to be just an A league MMORPG. It’s going to have content for the Saturday afternoon gamer, as well as the C, B and A league gamer. If there is going to be game content for the various levels of play, then there should be game mechanics for the various levels of play.

    The Devs have stated that there is only going to be a few tab targeted skills, and they are not going to be as efficient as the freeform target skills; so why is accommodating a play style, that does not look to be affecting your play style, such an issue to you?


    [edit]
    Looks like I got an answer to my question before I asked my question.
    How many is enough? Hells, how many tab targeted skills does the Esper have? Are PBAOEs that center on you considered tab targeted by you?
    [/edit]
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  8. Neepz

    Neepz New Cupcake

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    I was also thinking about the viability of the healing classes towards hardcore endgame. I'm the main support healer on my guild for over 7 years, can't wait to see who is gonna be the FoTM. But I must say, the idea of free targeting is getting me way excited. Feels like healing is gonna be fun again.
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  9. Leiloni

    Leiloni Cupcake-About-Town

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    The Esper has 5 targeted healing/support skills and 2 freeform skills (Or 3 if you count the damage/healing combo, but it's on a cooldown so it won't do a lot of healing nor can it be used often). They have 2 PBAoE finisher skills that are standard for any game so most healers will feel comfortable using these (but you can only use them after spamming your builder skill several times). So 5 targeted vs 2-3 freeform.

    So if you want to play a "freeform" Esper healer you have one option:
    Spammer builder - Soothe
    Cooldown Builder - Fishies on a 30 second cooldown.
    Two PbAoE finishers

    That's not a lot of build options or playstyle options. A freeform Esper will have one choice of gameplay - throw down a fishie at the start of a fight, spam Soothe over and over several times until you have enough Psi points for an AoE finsher. That's going to get boring fast and likely will not be ideal for every situation. But do you even need that finisher all the time? Likely not, so what do they do then with their Psi Points? I'll put all my Tier points into those skills, no other choice. My AMPs may change depending on whether it's PvP or PvE. But I have no choices when it comes to switching out my LAS with an Esper. Most classes can switch the skills on their bar depending on the situation, as well as saving different Tiers and AMP setups. Esper has no such choices so are either limited to being less than ideal in certain circumstances, or forced to use their entire skillset when they may not want to.

    Whereas the Spellslinger has 8 freeform heals and since they don't use a builder/consumer system, they can put any of those 8 skills on their LAS that seems right for the situation. Medic as we've seen today is the same - with a full toolset of freeform heals, they have more choices on how to build for the situation so they can be sure they're doing what's best at the time, and not merely relegated to only what's available.

    By splitting the types of heals an Esper has, they're severely limiting available build choices for anyone that wants to go with Freeform. The "choice" in what heals to use is a fake choice for anyone that wants to make the most of their class, and most players do, even those that play more casually want to do the best they can. No one wants to be forced to play with a style they don't enjoy.

    You could argue that the handful of freeform heals are just a waste and Carbine should make Esper entirely targeted, but I'm not sure that's a good idea. Since this game is otherwise entirely freeform for everyone, the tab target heals are just an oddity to begin with. Beyond that, anyone that wants to play a targeted Esper is going to be by design, less effective than every other healer, so why include them at all at that point? No one wants to be second best - even casual players that you talk so condescendingly about - but due to design differences between heal types, the difference is necessary for balance.

    Given all of the above, how then is any of this a good idea for either party?

    Hell even the Targeted Esper's have more choices:
    Spammer builder - Mind over Body (lantern thing)
    HoT builder - 10 second cooldown but short enough considering Mind over Body takes 3 seconds each cast and the HoT itself lasts for 7 seconds and stacks twice. Much better than 30 seconds, this skill is actually something you can put into your rotation often.
    Other builder - Warden is a 15 second targeted builder as well
    Phantasmal Armor is a targeted single target shield
    Targeted finishers they have a single target finisher to go with the 2 PbAoE ones

    That's 5 targeted skills and 7 total that a tab target healer will likely use in their builds (with the AoEs, which are pretty standard even for tab target MMO's) compared to 4 total skills for the freeform Esper. Limited choices! Not fun for either targeted or freeform healers to be so limited. With both Spellslinger and Medic your choices are centered around what skills you feel are best for the situation so you can truly make the best of the LAS system and your class. Esper's have no such choice since they are forced to choose a playstyle instead and then are severely limited by that. Who would find that fun? In the long run, do you honestly think Esper's aren't going to rightly complain about their poorly designed class?
  10. Katherine

    Katherine Cupcake-About-Town

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    Medics also have a secondary resource. They have a builder -> other heal mechanic in play. Espers aren't alone in this.

    Also; targetted heals are less effective when everyone is standing still, but in PvP they may end up superior. Its just a different set of abilities which I, for one, welcome. Would be dull if all classes healed exactly the same with different glowy-<REDACTED>, right? Spellslinger has the furthest range & are highly mobile. Espers are more stationary, HoTs, AOE & med-long range healers. Medics are short range, damage dealing, mobile healers. Seems pretty decent class design to me - there are differences, each with their own strengths & weaknesses.

    I'm not sure you have the entire list yet, right? Afaik we have only seen up to level ~22 with other abilities greyed out. There is probably more choice than you're letting on, and lest not forget we only have a tiny LAS to work with. You've mentioned they have HoTs, AOEs, free-form, targetted, shields, location-based & cooldowns - what other healing is there? I can't see how Spellslingers or Medics would have more choice - they have less, I suppose, since all their heals are free-form.
  11. Drasas

    Drasas Well-Known Cupcake

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    The damage control in this thread is priceless. I told you Carbine wasn't stupid and that there'd be a traditional healing option and it looks like they went even further and made an entire class based around it. Also, seeing as how you can't severely gimp a class by making them way less powerful than their counterparts unless they have some sort of major strength we've either found our tank healing class or healing will be more based around the player's preferences.
  12. Appledelhi

    Appledelhi New Cupcake

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    yeah i absolutely want to be able to melee heal. it is more challenging/fun.
  13. Leiloni

    Leiloni Cupcake-About-Town

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    The full class skillsets are on /r/WildstarOnline along with a wealth of other leaked info so feel free to go check it out. I won't discuss them here aside from saying it's possible they will still see minor adjustments from beta feedback, but you get a pretty good idea of what each class will look like by reading those lists. We do know as well as per the livestreams that each class has 30 skills - 10 healing, 10 dps, and 10 utility. So yea you only get 10 healing skills.

    Also with the Medic comment I just meant that they're also a freeform healer so they have more choices there when it comes to builds than an Esper will unless the Esper wants to mix and match. As far as choices I'm comparing targeted and non-targeted, that's it. You either click a nameplate in the UI to heal, or you don't. The majority are non-targeting - so that either means aimed freeform, or GTAoE, or PBAoE. If you want to use non-targeting heals, the Medic and Spellslinger have more options there. The Esper's skillset is about half non-targeted, but even for the targeted Esper healer, they have less targeting based options than the Medic and SS do Freeform, so that's not fair to them. As an Esper if you want to have as many build choices as the other healers, you're going to have to use both targeted and non-targeting skills.

    As far as effectiveness in PvP or elsewhere, I disagree. They've said as I quoted before, that targeted heals *need* to be less effective simply because they are not aimed, so they are inherently easier to use and guaranteed to heal for that set amount. Mix that with the fact that most heals are non-targeted and you can see where Carbine wants people to go. Take a look at the skills we already have and targeted heal less people for more mana and longer cast times. In PvP any healer is going to quickly learn how to aim, and thus can hit more people, for less mana, less cast times, and more overall healing. Aiming is a central skill for every player in this game, dps and tanks included - especially in PvP. That will be a minor issue that is quickly overcome. I don't see how targeted heals would be better in that scenario and that's largely due to basic design differences that Carbine has made clear they are sticking with.
  14. Katherine

    Katherine Cupcake-About-Town

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    So Espers have the widest choice available to them in their 10 healing slots (not including the utility sets which are invaluable), but you don't think they have the most choice? If you want a completley freeform healing class, don't play Esper. Some people like the freeform / targetted combi, so maybe Esper is for them and not you? Class balancing is a different issue to available skills - totally. If Espers end up weaker they will be fixed, as all MMO's strive to do.

    If you only have freeform then your choices are less than a class with both, surely - simple numbers and all that. I don't understand how Medics have more choice than Espers?
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  15. Leiloni

    Leiloni Cupcake-About-Town

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    How do you balance targeted heals when they are easier to use compared to non-targeting heals? You can't (and Carbine knows this as they've mentioned it several times). In order to make non-targeted heals worth using they need to be more effective which is where we have an issue. For "balance" sake the Esper will always be an underperformer if they're stuck with targeted heals. I've said it before - you can't balance tab target gaming styles in an MMO that is entirely designed around action combat. It's not going to work. And if you're truly concerned about player fun factor, than long-term you'd design a class that they won't need to complain about being unbalanced.

    As far as your first statement, read the above. If targeted heals are less effective, than half the Esper's skillset is not really a viable option. Or let's say we don't care about what's viable and we only care about styles. If you are a player that only wants to play with targeted heals, or only wants to play with non-targeted, you're limited still, to only half of an Esper's skillset. An Esper trying to make the most of their class and really using all the skills available will still be less effective than an SS or Medic just because all those targeted heals are less effective and there's nothing they can do about that. How is that fair?
  16. Katherine

    Katherine Cupcake-About-Town

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    You can when freeform heals also have an auto-aim feature... Esper's free-form are largely stationary, their targetted aren't, ergo your targetted will be PvP / movement heavy loadouts. Medics & Spellslingers largely don't seem to have this issue.

    As to your previous edit:

    If you want a purely freeform healing class, why, oh why, would you roll an Esper? Just to moan? I wouldn't roll a warlock in WoW and cry I couldn't heal. Some people will like the mix - those people would play the Esper.

    Have you ever PvPed? Targetted heals will, largely, always trump free-form in pure effectiveness. You're target will always get that heal, which is often crucial, whereas free-form gives you a 'miss-chance' of sorts. Players are not like AI, they move randomly and are all over the place, in PvP especially, which will make Esper's targetted heals some of the strongest.

    There is a difference between knowing how to aim and always getting a guarenteed heal - one is 100% foolproof, guess which one. If I was dodging telegraphs left, right & centre in PvP in a heated moment, I would prefer Sally the Esper churning out unmissable heals than June the Spellslinger trying her hardest to catch the dodgeball. Sally may run oom quicker, and they may be weaker pure numbers wise, but I'm alive, so who cares? LoS & regen time.
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  17. Drasas

    Drasas Well-Known Cupcake

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    Somebody here understands very little about how class balance works in an MMO...

    If Espers are weaker in one area they will have something to compensate for it. For instance as a Holy Paladin from Vanilla through Wrath I was a garbage AoE healer. Even the most basic AoE damage fight tested my class to the extreme. What we got in return is that we were the absolute best tank healer. There was not a class that was even close to our output in single-target or our sustainability. These are things good developers do in order to ensure that one class isn't completely garbage and ignored by the community.

    You just aren't seeing the writing on the wall that I've been trying to point out to you for months.

    Perhaps Medics and Spellslingers wont have to play the mana game that Espers have to play because they will have more efficient heals and they'll have more of a "get the job done" style of play vs strict rotations and spell selection that Espers might get stuck with. Sitting here and <REDACTED>ing because you think that a class might be underpowered because of how the scenarios unfold in your mind is somewhat silly.
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  18. Adrakka

    Adrakka New Cupcake

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    all my dreams have come true with the medic,.... except that the classes race pick is extreamly saddening. Human, zombie, or machine.. What about ma DaMMM FURRIES! lol
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  19. Leiloni

    Leiloni Cupcake-About-Town

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    If you think aiming will be such a problem, then how are you going to rely on your dps to effectively kill people for you, or your tanks to protect you? Their skills are entirely freeform as well. Aiming is a central idea to Wildstar's combat so everyone is going to be learning how to do it well. The Esper is the only exception to this but those skills have a downside associated with them to balance that out.
  20. Katherine

    Katherine Cupcake-About-Town

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    I didn't say it will be a problem, at all. Its just less effective in some PvP scenarios which will give some of the Esper's heals an edge, thus a reason for having them.
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