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Healing: Self-sufficient or dedicated class?

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by nilihanth, Sep 19, 2012.

  1. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    You really think all those games 'failed' because they used the Holy Trinity system? Changing a working system just to innovate and so it feels new is not fixing it.

    Carbine is combining the good of old with new innovative ideas. That is what pulls me to this game. They reinstate some good old features that made this genre what it used to be. They are not following that company in Anaheim. They picked their audience. Carbine will pick theirs. Others tried to copy that one game and failed just because of that.

    If you had read my text properly, you would know I play(ed) all three roles. So yeah, I have been waiting my fair share to get into a dungeon. And yes, it sucks. But that is not the fault of the HT, but of Blizzard's implementation of the Dungeon Finder.

    I don't mind criticism towards me, but I don't like your tone. I believe that you are annoyed at someone or something, but don't start to pick on me because my opinion doesn't match yours. My opinions are strong, I know and realize that, but it says more about you then me if you can't handle them.
    cali and Maddog Charlie like this.
  2. Maddog Charlie

    Maddog Charlie Cupcake-About-Town

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    The Trinity is always a prickly pear for Devs, you can go the way of 'few classes and a variety of skills' and let the player decide or the other extreme of 'chiselled roles with little opportunity for differences'. Or as most try somewhere in between.

    Fact is usually experienced players want to be able to make their character exactly as they imagine them, unfortunately for us though 'most' players dont play like that, they need some kind of a character sheet (role) and background to get moving and feel like they know what their purpose is.

    W* have already hinted at the Trinity and for good reason the vast majority of players will want that kind of direction for their toon, otherwise faced with a trillion choices they lock up and it all gets a little Fallen Earth like (or any Sandbox type game). Vast majority = most financing for the project.

    Over time fine tuning the direction of the toon is 'hopefully' going to be an option with skills and not too 'canned' like SWTOR but really its PVP where those kind of fine differences really tell. The fact is that PVP is a minority in MMO play styles and no Dev team can ever please ALL the players in PVP cause they are strong personalities and experienced players.

    In summary I think the Trinity stands good. It pleases perhaps 80% of the players (at least until they get more experienced LOL) and it eases new players into a role they are likely most familiar with principally because those roles have been defined by the media in films and on TV.
    BUT the balance of the skills, healing, DPS etc should be a focus of the Dev and testing teams for the success of the game, balancing Raids against a Boss will need to be closely analyzed.
  3. Nectavian

    Nectavian New Cupcake

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    Perhaps that is another thing to consider -- there is no appreciable value for a "tank" spec in PvP. Yes, you can be a distraction for a very short time, but when playing at a high skill level, you will be ignored.

    One of the major reasons for multiple specs was to attempt to address people that play both PvE and PvP regularly. Sure, some people change for PvE, but the vast majority who change daily do so to change content, not role.

    Merging healer and tank would certainly solve this issue, but if the majority believe the Trinity is required for the game to even sell, then perhaps there are alternatives. What would you guys prefer to see from tanks in PvP? Should they adjust tank-like abilities when used against another player? Is dual-spec, or even on-the-fly specs a better solution? What happens to the tank-based stats on their gear, or would you expect tanks to grind out two sets, while healers/dps can have light crossover?

    I know we're not the designers and don't know their current plans, but I wouldn't mind hashing out some ideas since I haven't seen this addressed by Carbine yet.
  4. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    I love multi specs. In Rift I had pretty much a spec for every role the class could do, including one or two PVP specs. That is a flexible class role system. I played some more than others, but the possibility to switch role for instance between pvp dps and pvp heals was wonderful, because sometimes one was needed, other times the other. You never knew until you entered the pvp warfront.

    I did like the guardian ability tanks had in SWTOR pvp. It both fits the role and require coordination in terms of staying together.

    We talked about pvp in another thread, and I get back to the "presence" effect, to avoid grinding a seperate pvp gear set. Get into pvp presence and the gear and abilities scale to a pvp balanced version in regards of power, defense, durations and cds against players. Turn back in pve presence and your build are not working defensively against players, but gives higher effect and the improved abilities for pve content - bigger heals, bigger hits, bigger shield walls. Some might try to pve presence in pvp content for bigger hits, but they will be softies to oneshot since their own defense will be non-existing.

    Make craft mats of different quality a random drop from players and pvp is viable to obtain gear upgrades too.

    I talk too much.
  5. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    That is because PvP has been an afterthought. I take WoW for example. They design the game around PvE content, raid bosses, dungeons, etc. and tune the skills after that for PvP. A skill like Polymorph lasts 50 seconds in PvE, but only 8 or so in PvP. This to not imbalance the skill in PvP. If you design skills for PvP and PvE alike you won't have this imbalance problem.

    The same goes for the HT system in PvP. For a long time tanks had a lot of skills to manage threat. I do believe (and thankfully Blizzard as well) a tank shouldn't manage threat the whole time, but mitigate and avoid taking damage more and more instead. This will make tanks viable in PvP. They will be very hard to kill.

    I did battlegrounds in Protection spec on my warrior in PvE gear. It was major fun. I could last a very long time, although I did not do a lot of damage against players with a lot of resilience. But I got the opponents attention by just being there all the time, snaring and dazing, it annoyed the <REDACTED> out of them, leaving room for dps and healers to steal flags and bases. But true, I did that just for fun.

    About the healer and tank merging. Blizzard already did this to a minor extend. Tanks have limited healing capabilities. Warriors and Death Knights each have minor healing abilities and the paladin and druid even have full healing spells in their arsenal. Even dps classes have healing skills. Rogues have one as a finisher, mages can use a skill to regain mana and health. I dare to say every class in WoW has skills that heal.

    Should they go further with this? I don't think so. Those healing spells are nice as a bandage, but not to keep you alive forever. Which is fine. This is where the healer comes in and saves your ass with a shield or major heal. In battlegrounds healers are always first priority to get down. It's up to the other classes to protect him. All need each other to perform optimally. That is the trick of the HT, working together in different roles. Each of them should be a cog in a well oiled machine.
  6. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    I just do not see that working. Can you mention even one game that has perfect class balance and pvp/pve works without being a nerfed version of the other. There will always be abilities needed in one that would be totally out of balance in the other in the same design - or even worse, if devs sought to balance both, great abilities that would be possible in one is left off the table because, ohh dear, it gives balance issues in the other.

    It is two intirely different playstyles and I highly doubt the same setup can be balanced to the point of perfect for both pve and pvp, without saying some stuff works different in one or the other with a presence that fix the balancing or abilities/gear being nerfed/boosted against players some other way or pvp being a totally seperate talent tree that activates against players.
  7. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    No, I can't because every game should have a minor imbalance to begin with. A perfectly balanced game wouldn't work.

    I must admit I can't, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

    That happens when you treat them both as being different in the first place. Why should a skill behave differently in PvP then in PvE? Why should a Polymorph spell last longer in PvE? Maybe the healers in PvP just **** up by not dispelling. Or maybe the spell just lasts to long in PvE to begin with.

    Balance the skills around PvP from the start and tune your PvE monsters around that. Not the other way around. You can adjust the health of the monsters for example or give them more armor to mitigate melee damage more.
  8. ObliviousPrime

    ObliviousPrime "That" Cupcake

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    Tanks do have their role in pvp. They were great ball carriers in Huttball.
  9. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    This might work. Building PvE content around a PVP focus sounds less like a game I want to play though.

    PvP is to me an extra layer of stuff to do, not the main objective, so making PvP the sun and everything else the planets circling it sounds like a system, that will not have proper priority on the RPG part of MMORPG.
    Seen too much <REDACTED> happen to PvE, when someone wanted to balance PvP, that is why Blizzard ended up with a compromise in making some abilities working different against players.

    I worry about all the usefull stuff that works well with a long cd in PvE, but would be considered OP in the shortterm PVP fights, and thus left totally out if focus is on PvP.

    Also CC'ing will be nerfed to the point of bringing an dps-offtank to pve crowd control instead of having sap/poly/trap etc. to do the job - unless CCs are on a longer cooldown, maybe only working from out of combat, and all classes has 1-2 abilities to break out, also on cd (instead of having to grind for the proper piece of clicky gear).
    If not, PvE encounters would have to work more with shortterm stuns, interrupts and dispells to make up for the lack of longer cc measures - not a bad thing, but I have noticed a lot of players tend to forget such abilities :p

    I do miss the large raids with 2-3 offtanks in EQ btw!

    However, what we have seen so far of Wildstar does not indicate the sap/trap/poly type of cc being a part of the game. It is about dodging bad stuff rather than longterm crowd controlling, so it might work just fine with balancing around a PVP focus. Except, so far we have not really seen a great focus on PvP either... wonder when we get into that as the WS Wednesday leak.
  10. ObliviousPrime

    ObliviousPrime "That" Cupcake

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    Yeah since I play a lot of PVP I would like to know more about that in Wildstar.

    I think however we will find out about that after the other faction reveal and possibly the other class reveals.
  11. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    I'm not saying PvP should be in the center of attention. Both PvE and PvP are equally important. PvE content is just easier to adjust then PvP. Fighting players or monsters shouldn't be a difference. Damage and skill wise they should be the same. You should be able to use the same skills and do the same amount of damage to both targets. You can't balance player skill, but you can balance monster health, armor and any other stat a monster has.

    Making PvP a layer of content, that is where it goes wrong. It should be part of the combat system, not some extra flavor. This has been done in too many games. Combat (both PvP and PvE) has to be a pillar in a game like this, on the same level as housing and crafting/trading.
  12. Nectavian

    Nectavian New Cupcake

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    That may be the key -- I agree that the telegraph may lessen the need for long-term CC, better opening the doors for cross-content abilities.
  13. Tiktak

    Tiktak Cupcake-About-Town

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    Why -DO- we not do the same amounts of damage to players AND mobs in similar armour anyway? I always thought that was a bit odd. The only differences between a player and a mob should be player intuition/reflexes vs Mob AI and the number of attack abilities available to use against you.

    This can work in WildStar since the main 'op' abilities are usually long term crowd control, and I can't see many if any of those types of abilities being available, or even needed!
  14. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    It also makes distraction abilities more interesting, because instead of sapping on the move - I do that a lot to farm mats and pickpocket on my wow rogue - you will have to lead their attention elsewhere to be sneaky about something. Unless stealth is the 100% type that a mob can't break - I always liked games to make stealth less reliable, so you are discovered if you get too close or, well, smell a lot.
  15. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

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    Stealth classes should take lots of showers!
  16. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    Or use deodorant!
  17. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think it's because of reaction time. If I killed another player in the same amount of time that it takes me to kill a mob they wouldn't even be able to get a hit off. Solution....make it take longer to kill mobs right? It would result in such a grindfest imo.
  18. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

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    PVE/PVP Just give folks a PVP spec or PVP gear that is focused only for PVP.

    It could be done just with armor reliance, you wouldn't even need to change the effects of abilities ( think polymorph) if done right.

    Yes... You would have to have two sets of gear. To my mind that's not really a bad thing. I liked switching out of my tank gear into my dps set, it changed my appearance and kinda reinforced the fact that I was switching roles.

    Make it a one button switch between sets so if you got caught out in open world PVP you could switch almost instantaneously.
  19. Tiktak

    Tiktak Cupcake-About-Town

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    I don't mind having multiple sets of gear (Tank, Healer, DPS) I just don't see why PvE and PvP should be two different things. If killing 1 mob takes seconds, why not simply round up a camp and get the multi-kill bonuses!

    CC abilities should just be 'I stun,freeze,whatever the mob for ~10 seconds' with a cooldown (say 30 seconds.)
  20. WildZhen

    WildZhen Cupcake-About-Town

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    Okay I read a lil bit of everyone opinion and to continue on the PVP/PVE balance I think dev should think simple personally.

    I don't find it a problem because no game can have perfect balance as long as everyone can do something against another class in pvp they'll be happy, they might whine a little but it'll be alright.
    Now to come back to the point of the HT I think it is important to keep it, giving everyone (class) the choice to tank/dps/heal is just not working for a simple reason it's hard to keep track on balancing the game and work in detail on each class; too much complexity will be reflected in the gameplay imo.
    I believe people might say we'd like to be able to do the three but when push comes to shove they will go into something specific. (ie: some ppl in the shaman community in wow did request for a couple of years a tanking tree Blizz never did it but still these people moved on and played the class with what it had Heal/dps lot of whining for nothing in the end).

    I agree with blackWolf on that HT is something they should not touch maybe try to implement few things ( I do believe it can be improve playing with talents and all) but to completely disregard it is just too much of a risk taking for a new Mmo.

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