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Healing: Self-sufficient or dedicated class?

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by nilihanth, Sep 19, 2012.

  1. WildZhen

    WildZhen Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm like Black wolf but not that extreme rofl I think having classes that can do every role stinks (imo). Well here is why.

    First of all I believe that people choose their class because they know what role they wanna have, unless you are dumb (no disrespect) you have a vague idea what you are going to do (again no disrespect).

    Second, giving people the choice is a good thing but I believe having them fulfillin the 3 roles is just a no go (@two levels); at a gameplay level you have to start balancing three role for each class (nice headaches),
    at a role play level; right give a "priest" a sword and he can tank everythin with its power shield ><' I mean it's just wrong to have a class like a caster being able to tank because... hell just the background for that makes me wanna puke (jokin).
    Now don't get me wrong I'm just saying it throws me off, I am not insulting nor degrading anyone point of view here.

    Third having a fix role, as I said in a previous post, helps a lot. I mean, I have known people who wanted to do everything and at the end they sucked at....everything just do one thing master it, if you wanna try tanking go level up a tank change your path/faction and discover another side of the game but for god sake don't add three spec for people to just change every two hours. Now, I understand adding three spec (specially tank and heal to all classes) will make it easier for people to find a group, if you think that then you may have a point but really what good is it to have 40 tanks available when only two of them know how to tank ?!!!

    My advice keep it simple 2 spec per class and that's it, a third if they wanna go pvp why not but don't bother giving too much, generally the community doesn't know what to do with it. It ends up in whine over whine over whine. Anyway just my opinion.
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  2. Kurik

    Kurik Super Cupcake

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    I also prefer less roles per class but I'm fine with everyone being able to spec into DPS and into one other whether it be healing, tanking, or old school support. Also I think providing different ways for a class to fulfill a role might help out for example different weapon choices or for a healer choosing what type of healing skills they specialize in.
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  3. Londrieved

    Londrieved New Cupcake

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    Personally, I'm of the opposite mind. I like the idea of classes having the potential to do 2-3 of the roles, but never more than one simultaneously. I feel if you're capable of doing a spec, you should also be able to do it well enough, so no class is hand over fist the best at a roll. Cause at that point, why offer diversity at all? I don't think everything should do everything, and I'm frankly not a fan of hybrids. As much as I don't like what MoP did with the talent trees [[6 choices was ENTIRELY too far in the simple direction]], I like the idea of simply -choosing- the specialization and the 'talents' being special to the class instead.

    I digress. Choice shouldn't be a bad thing, I enjoy Jedi Knight, I like heavy armor, I didn't want to tank. I wanted to heal, I also wanted to level a smuggler. I wanted to heal in Rift, I hated Cleric. Played Mage. In WoW, never could get into a Priest. I did a Shaman healer instead.

    Without this class variety, I wouldn't have been able to play the role I wanted without swallowing a class I didn't, or enjoy a class I wanted without swallowing a role I didn't.
  4. Kirathis

    Kirathis Cupcake-About-Town

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    I tend to trend more toward Black Wolf's stance on this subject. I have never been much of a fan of classes being able to fill multiple roles in group content. For one thing, I like the idea of a specialist more than someone who dabbles in all of the available roles. Some are great at it, but sadly, most (me included) are not.

    However, I am a fan of a somewhat self contained class for leveling purposes. I tend to gravitate toward those classes that do not require others to be successful. This means I can still be useful to a group but can also level by myself if I choose. EQ Druid and WoW Enhancement Shaman come to mind as examples of classes I have played with these types of features. Both allowed me to at least cast mediocre heals on myself, had a bit of damage mitigation and were primarily DPS roles for group content. Extras like enhanced travel abilities were also appealing.

    The other thing to remember is that the more classes that fill a role, the more effort has to go into balancing all of them to make sure one is not substantially better than another. This rarely happens and we run into certain classes that greatly outshine another making someone who chose the "wrong" class un-desired.
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  5. WildZhen

    WildZhen Cupcake-About-Town

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    Thank you Kirathis exactly our point "WS Black Wolf Guild" incoming !!!!!!
  6. Londrieved

    Londrieved New Cupcake

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    Agree to disagree, I guess. I loath the idea of wanting a specific class for healing and tank, and everyone else is DPS and nothing but. I'll leave a game if character specialization isn't flexible enough, it's that big a deal to me.
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  7. Regiside

    Regiside New Cupcake

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    ^seconded^​

    I cant say anything that hasnt already been said here before, although my opinion is holy trinity I would like to point everyone to cataclysm warrior. Before that expansion the warrior class was very dependant on a support class to sustain combat, but then it got a good number of proc. abilities that would allow the warrior to heal itself after a kill enabling it to do what it does best, which is slaughter everything in its path without stopping.

    this ability did not remove the need for a healer but it allowed the warrior to be self sustaining as long as it did what it did best. Fitting within the holy trinity but also being a more flexible class is the best way to craft a class imo. Pick a point or side of the HT and let talents sway the difference.
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  8. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    I want to be able to be more than one spec/role with my character, but not simultanously. Be it tank, offtank, support, heals, ranged dps, melee dps, whatever I feel makes my class enjoyable.

    Those who want to be locked to one role and one spec could earn a small "specialization" buff over time until they respec or switch role instead of keeping their virginal untouched ability tree above reproach ;-)
  9. mockingfox

    mockingfox Cupcake

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    that would be nice, if the game never gets patched and the talents balanced. Because then a build that worked before wouldnt work and I would have to start building up my virginal buff all over again???

    I am a firm believer in the Holy Trinity (although i believe it to be more of a triangle and a games classes arent as mono tone as we talk about them) Its just that when you go to create a class you look at the Holy Trinity first and decide which point/side you want the class to fall on, then you decide its core mechanics (stealth/spells/pets) and then you decide if it is a passive or an aggressive effect style. I could start discussing this more but anyone going into game design should be familiar with the theories (and then their is always the internet)

    @Regiside perfect example, The warrior is a on the Holy Trinity side between the tank and dps points with specs allowing it to lean either way. It is also an aggressive playstyle rewarding itself for killing things with health... to kill more things with (its main mechanic is killing things, then more, then more)
  10. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    Yup, just like everyone else, when there is a spec overhaul.

    I am also a firm believer of the holy trinity, but what works well in a group is not always all that hot solo or for pvp or farming and having a spec tree available to simply test out ones choices would be nice too. Thus Rift gets 5 stars for number of options to modify my class experience how I wanted to, one for each spec I used.
  11. Kiaros

    Kiaros New Cupcake

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    I prefer the Dedicated healer, its my Favorite class to play.. You have the most Control over the fight.. A good healer goes a long way.

    With no Dedicated healers from what ive seen in games, pve instances are zerg fests.. or face roll easy.
  12. Opi

    Opi New Cupcake

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    Oh, I like that they are different from other MMOs. Like theres no specific tank class or heal class, it would be nice if every class had the chance to tank or heal. I think that would make it pretty interesting and unique, nothing I have seen before, so I like that :) The hard problem would be to balance all the other classes, and how they manage the gear and that stuff. I'm sure they'll work something out :up:

    Yes I sort of agree with you, it would be nice to just go the regular way with a healer. But I would like to see what the devs can make with no dedicated healers.
  13. Michael72

    Michael72 Cupcake

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    Without a dedicated healing class my wife will probably never be convinced to play the game. I'm just making up my mind right now whether this is a good or a bad thing ;)

    Basically I'm for holy trinity all the way. Guild Wars 2 has taught me a lesson. Most bigger events were horrible zergfests, the same for the much praised PvP. Old Alterac Valley filled with noobs looked more organised. The holy trinity gives a group its structure, and it allows imho for much more compelling 5-man and raid encounters.

    I agree, however, with many of you guys that there should be at least 2 viable paths for every class, be it Tank/DPS DPS/Heal or even Tank/Heal. This can easily be done by spec, or by a more innovative and funny system. I am not a big fan of an overtly complex system like Rift's 'soul' system, though. Stuff gets wonderfully customizable, and horribly unbalanced in the blink of an eye. Used to play a sabo in the early days of Rift, and with the right spec I just blew up whole battlegrounds, sitting behind a bush and laughing my ass off :cool:

    Several ways to spec your class therefore does not mean that every class should be able to do everything, that's just not the way to go. Most MMO players (myself included) are not even good in one role, let alone two. I have never encountered a single one who was really good in all three (I, e. g., consider myself an OK DPS, reasonable healer, horrible tank). That's the reason why there is classes in 'most every MMO, because people like to fill and are good at different roles in a group.

    You want something completely different than your current class? Chose another class and make an alt, and check out whether that's your taste or not. WS with its unique path system and two factions and (hopefully) large variety of races and classes should offer enough replay value even for people who usually suffer from altophobia.
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  14. Leiloni

    Leiloni Cupcake-About-Town

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    I definitely prefer the Holy Trinity and I always have. I love playing pure healers and in games like TERA and Aion I leveled my healers in healer spec. So to whichever poster mentioned that was impossible, it's been done in many games. Sure having more DPS to level is always nice, but for people that enjoy healers that's not our top priority. I also enjoy playing ranged spellcasters sometimes in a DPS role and I like the pure Mage/Sorceror type classes, they don't need too many extra skills to "even" things out like some games try to do.

    But after GW2 I realized how much I preferred the Holy Trinity, so I'm glad Wildstar is going in that direction. I might actually prefer a four role system, adding in a support spec like the Aion Chanter. I was not a fan of how RIFT did support. They were boring buff bots with very specific rotations. Support classes should be more reactionary, using what skills are needed at the time.

    But I digress. I agree with some others that I like the idea of pure classes. I don't want any class that can do it all. I don't mind having two specs and in my four role system it could work really well, but no class should be able to both tank and heal. It should be either heal/dps, tank/dps, support/dps, or dps/dps. I also think that I'd like maybe 2 classes that can perform each of those heal/tank/support roles. It gives variety so those of us who enjoy that can choose the playstyle we prefer but it doesn't offer too many choices. Too many choices can be a class balance problem, but it also lessens the feeling of being special. It's important for a class to feel like they excel in doing a certain thing in a certain way and no one else can. Letting every class do everything is awful and boring and not fun at all.
  15. Guide

    Guide Well-Known Cupcake

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    I agree with a lot that is being said as far as preferring a Holy Trinity. Champions Online was such a mess with the cherry-picking skill system. Nobody PvPs anymore. You can't find a single room. People only duel on the field these days. That's when I realized that versatility isn't so great. It was such an imbalanced disaster you can literally be everything in one. It ruined the spirit of the game because you couldn't go with a hero concept and have a viable build unless you didn't care.
  16. Curtsie

    Curtsie New Cupcake

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    I think the best option would be to allow a player to specialize in one of two possible roles, but not to allow them to fulfill more then one specific role at one time.
    I enjoy being a dedicated tank for raids and other group content but I don't want to be stuck as such ALL the time. When I'm out in the world questing I'd like to be able to switch to DPS so I can do what I need to do.
    I think DCUO's system is a great example of having dedicated roles, but also giving you the option of changing it to fit your needs.

    I also think the dps/healer/tank thing should be expanded to include a support role of sorts. Someone who throws down crowd control, manages adds and does group buffs/mob debuffs to make things easier for everyone else. I've always wanted to play a class that was like that.
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  17. Malisent

    Malisent Cupcake-About-Town

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    Coming out of playing TSW, and now playing Rift's new expansion, one of the problems I've run across with the 'play anything' model, is that if you want to participate in high-end raiding, it can become a barrier. As an example, I came into Rift weeks before the expansion hit and leveled up a new character, I raided as a healer in WoW in competitive progression guilds, and in applying for similar guilds in Rift, I am completely overwhelmed by the need to know the ins and outs of 4+ different specs in order to even be considered.

    I appreciate having a different spec for questing (although I actually raised my healer in WoW back in vanilla using a heal spec and finding groups) or to fulfill another role to help make sure the right roles are available to take down a boss. The versatility of dual-spec is nice for that.

    What is bothering me is there seems to be a new line of thinking that a 'jack-of-all-trades' player is a better player and guild investment than someone who is excellent at a specific role. As a former guild leader coordinating raid groups, the flexible folks were wonderful to have, so we made sure to have a percentage of those, but the folks who were truly dedicated to a specific spec were just as important. Part of putting together a good raid team was finding a balance of those.

    Edit: grammar
  18. cali

    cali Cupcake-About-Town

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    In 90% of the MMOs that I've played, I've been a healer. A lot of what I'm about to write will echo what others are saying. I like the Holy Trinity. I thought the dungeons in GW2 were garbage due to their lack of defined roles (you really did need someone healing and someone taking hits most of the time from what I could tell TBH). Please, give me a tank and give me a healer and don't try to make everyone kinda good at pretending to fill those roles.

    One problem that I've had in a few games is that if you are locked into a specific spec for the duration of leveling then players may end up shooting themselves in the foot for choosing that Healer spec or Tank spec early on. One of my most sad experiences in leveling (I hate leveling and normally power through it as fast as possible to get to end game) was when I rolled a Zealot in Warhammer online. I got about 80% through the leveling process and then found myself unable to solo any of my quests. I was at the recommended level and the damage classes had no issues killing these same quest mobs. I took this as a lesson learned and have always picked a healing class but always leveled my toon with the DPS spec. Once I finished leveling I would switch to the squishiest, glasscannon healer build that existed.

    I'm glad that they gave all the classes the choice between at least 2 roles with one of them being a DPS role (at least that's what I gathered from the interviews). I can't imagine how painful it would be to try and level a class that had only the choice to be a tank or healer.

    For me Healer classes should have​
    - perhaps not one of the highest DPS outputs for endgame but definitely the ability to solo their way through leveling​
    - The Option between builds for example 1. Huge healing output 2.Medium Healing output and tons of survivability spells and oh-<REDACTED> buttons and 3. Medium Healing output and support spells that boost your party's effectiveness. People that kill stuff faster need less healing.​
    - Abilities that make healers a viable option for PVP especially if they decided to include an Arena type pvp game.​

    A Tank class should have​
    - Option between builds for example 1. High damage mitigation with moderate threat building 2. Medium damage mitigation with higher damage and/or threat building 3. Medium damage mitigation but the frequent use of self-heals and oh-<REDACTED> survivabilty cool downs.​

    In games with different talent points there is always mathematically a clear best spec. I would like to see almost a graph-able correlation between the player's skill level and how effective a certain spec is. For example, one healing spec may give you some passive skills that you don't need to do anything but heal as normal and you'll occasionally get a benefit from the passive skill. For the Higher skill spec they are abilities that you have to use at certain times to achieve the greatest benefit, knowing the best time to use these skills and what abilities get the greatest boost from theses skills makes that spec harder to play, but overall you achieve a higher healing output.
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  19. Guide

    Guide Well-Known Cupcake

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    There are so many different opinions in this thread so at some point, a few of us might be upset if the trinity goes a path unlikeable. I try to give everything a try. I just think some systems work for different games.
  20. Aheadache

    Aheadache Well-Known Cupcake

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    I would hope they have more then one healing class and make them interesting enough to not discourage players from rolling them. I would like to see some of their ideas on how healing works and what classes can heal and how raid healing will workout. I hope we get a cool healing video soon :cool:

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