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How do you feel about "Limited" Action Sets?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Ingsoc, Feb 13, 2013.

  1. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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    Recruiter, i think you're debating something different in several posts. it seems like we're not being limited by number of abilities, we'll have lots of those, just limited by action SETS as in the number of abilities we're allowed to have on a bar at a given time. so we may have 20-30 abilities, but only be able to have 10-15 on a bar at a given time, and need to strategically choose which ones we have for each encounter. so one fight we may need these 10 plus some fluff ones because it's an AoE fight. or this fight we need to have more single target stuff plus more CC abilities because there's adds, but we need to CC them and burn them one at a time. or you need to off tank this fight so you pick 10 tanking abilities and throw in 2-3 emergency heals in case your healer gets stuck.
  2. thrastorm7

    thrastorm7 Cupcake-About-Town

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    I completely understood that, i argue exactly to the point of how many abilities each one should have access on the bars at any given time. in my honest opinion, i found 5-10 (maybe 15 even) to be very few, if you read the "big" post i did, i said i am ok with limited, as long as they are around 20-25...

    I see the strategical part of picking what abilities you'll put on your action bar, but ends here....

    When if the abilities (limited again) are like 20-25, again you have the strategical element on picking abilities, plus the fact that you have to even use them strategically...

    (that's in short)
  3. Zerdav

    Zerdav Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's all about designing a fight and the developer must take that into consideration.

    There is no reason why 9 abilities wouldn't require a strategic use in fight, if the fight is thus designed.
  4. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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    honestly, I detest making macros or being forced to use odd keybinds that aren't logical (alt-shift-tab-insert-pg up-3 makes me cast burning firestorm of LAWLZ!!), i detest having to scroll/tab down my action bar, or search for that one ability that i rarely use just because i HAVE to have it for this one boss in this one instance. i played a warlock in WoW. i had my 1 to = keys set with the abilities i used all the time (my rotation). if i needed something that wasn't on one of those keys i had to either 1. search my spell book, 2. find it on one of the overly crowded side bars, 3. decide i didn't care enough to do 1 or 2 and tell people "oh i don't have that up right now!" now, if we had the ability to set up bars and out of combat pick from our self made list of "this one's AoE" "this one's tanking" "this one's healing" etc, i wouldn't mind.
    Mudfin, starspun and Duckdee like this.
  5. Ingsoc

    Ingsoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    The 9 action buttons we see in the IGN video posted today seems like too few to me. I do realize that is not the official UI, and probably something that was just thrown together for the recent low-level press demo.

    I don't mind having to make choices, but when you consider offensive/tanking/healing abilities, short and long cooldowns, buffs, and maybe some special milestone abilities (not sure there are any active abilities, or if they would consume an action bar slot, just theorizing here), you don't have much room to play with.

    Recruiter makes a good point in that we are already strategically picking the abilities we want to buy and bring to the raid. Hard to put a number on what I think is "enough" though.
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  6. thrastorm7

    thrastorm7 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Second post we agree on!!!!

    I ll fall in love when we reach 10 :D
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  7. Draogon

    Draogon Cupcake-About-Town

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    Fair enough, I played GW1 for a very short amount of time, decided I didn't like it probably too soon. The whole hunting down mobs to learn rare abilities sounds nice though.

    All in all I think 10 would be my preferred number of slots as a min , I'd much prefer 15.
  8. nomotog

    nomotog Cupcake-About-Town

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    9 seems like a lot to me actually. I don't think you really need as many powers as some people think. Though a lot has to do with what kind of powers we have.
  9. Wreck

    Wreck Cupcake-About-Town

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    For casual questing, maybe. But think endgame raiding, think PvP 20v20 match, think dungeons and group activities. Still think 9 is enough?
  10. Rotto

    Rotto Cupcake

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    I think having access to 20-25 abilities at any given time removes any of the choice involved in the first place.

    For instance. Lets say I theory-crafted a pretty sweet Spell-Slinger DPS build around Skill A, B and C. I need maybe X, Y, Z skills to be the butter to the bread of my DPS skills. So then what? Unless you put EVERYTHING on some sort of cooldown and I have to select a very large variety of attacks to maintain some sense of damage then with 20 slots I can not only fill out for the DPS build I crafted but I can put in any skill that I think might be vaguely useful.

    Vaguely useful? Really?

    Or, say we have a fairly large pool of abilities but you can only select, lets say ten. You still need at the bare minimum, six to make the build work.

    Then you have four abilities that you can dedicate to utility:
    Maybe a group buff?
    Maybe a debuff?
    Maybe some kind of interrupt?
    Maybe some kind of movement spell?
    Maybe some kind of CC?
    Maybe some kind of heal to help sustain yourself?
    Maybe some kind of long cool-down ability?

    And then, what if you have more than one skill for each of these options?
    What if you had the option to pick up two or three movement skills?
    What if you could pack all kinds of stuns and CC?
    What if you could put down several buffs? Debuffs?

    This when we make choices. This is when we decide what our goal is. This is where we decide that maybe synergy with the rest of the group is more important than another stun. Or that interrupt might beat out a second Blink.

    The point is that you have the options to do these things. You just don't have the ability to do all of them.
    And I find the decision making to be far more engaging than using H Skill in M situation because that's just what you do.

    What if you didn't have H Skill?
    What if you have H Skill but M situation never comes along?

    This is all part of the decisions that you make.

    For some of us more veteran MMO players, most of this is something we can just kinda eyeball and use our gut instincts to do. Because we can draw from previous experience and know that while that super long cool-down ability lets you be awesome, the less impressive one with a 30 sec cool down is better overall. Maybe not in every situation (ie. being ganked, popping something long might give you the power to win) but that's just the risk you take and part of what makes these kind of limited action sets great.

    To summarize in a less wordy, less heated way:

    I'd argue having the ability to use a large amount of abilities is more of a detriment to strategy and decision-making than it is a boon because it removes some of the x-factor in any engagement.
  11. thrastorm7

    thrastorm7 Cupcake-About-Town

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    10-15? isn't that a bit of too few? i mean, lets try to categorize the kind of abilities

    (Lets assume you are a healing class)

    1. Healing spells
    2. Buffs
    3. Offensive spels
    4. Crowd Control
    5. Defensive

    I won't add some other type of spells like empowering, mana conserve, utility spells etc

    So if you have 9-10 slots

    So thats 5 main categories, given that u ll need as a healer something about 4-5 healing spells (dunno, an aoe spell, 2 single target, 1 hot) and you have like 1 spell for each of the rest 4 categories

    That's not good is it?

    Unless you'll tell me man, i dont care for any kind of variation when i am on a fight, i just want my 6 healing spells my 1 buff and my one shield...

    in this case yes you are right
  12. nomotog

    nomotog Cupcake-About-Town

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    A lot depends on what kind of skills we get, but ya I think it's enough. Actually in a group setting you should be able to get away with even fewer skill because your focusing in on a more narrow role. In like a raid, your group might even be able to slot every skill. 9 slots times 40 people is a butt load of powers.
  13. Wreck

    Wreck Cupcake-About-Town

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    I personally think that, in order to keep combat entertaining, I need to have a set of rotational spells, situation spells, cool downs, and utilities. I don't know about you guys, but I don't think those will fit in 9 buttons. Still 9 is a really small number, combat will get boring just because your spamming the same 9 spells every time, it gets repetitive.
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  14. thrastorm7

    thrastorm7 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Certainly you make a valid point here, but please tell me what's the desired number here...?

    i never claimed that have everything on the table is good.... but for real, lets move to action...

    you sit down before a fight, and you pick your abilities, since you have only 10 lets say abilities, you have to strategically pick the ones you imagine are the best to use... ok COMPLETELY strategical... Then what? you spam your 10 abilities and?

    why not to have SOME (not full) variety while in action, why not to have some more ways to help the grp, u had a list there... on 10 slots how do you see fit, abilities that proc, abilities that are follow ups from other abilities, debuffs, buffs, stuns, cc, long cd's, offensive spells, defensive spells and MANY MANY more...

    It will be strategical as well, if you had 20 abilities to pick (dunno maybe from different pools?), this way, u have the strategical part AND a bit more dynamic game play...
  15. nomotog

    nomotog Cupcake-About-Town

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    You do have one point. It would be the same 9 spells and that might get repetitive. Though again it depends on the spells. I said it 3 times now. It all depends on what kind of spells we get not just how many we have. If every spell is just a basic damage, or basic heal. Things are going to get boring.
  16. gyves

    gyves Cupcake

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    If every ability is very powerful allowing depth in a the ways that you can use them and how you opponent must deal with your actions then it will be fine.

    However, if the majority of abilities simply translate to more damage and/or set and forget buffs then the limited action bar is very bad. The Stalker reveal video looks like it's going this way so I'm not too sure how I feel.

    I definitely don't at all believe that the limited skill set itself adds anything to the game. Choosing what abilities you use isn't something you actively do. Most players will simply look it up online and copy others for the best load out. Also, there is a possibility that it takes away from the game. For example, the PvP aspect. Guessing what moves your opponent selected is a hindrance to the game in my opinion. Skill from games comes from knowing what you and your opponent can do. The surprise element of having chosen abilities could make combat random as you never truly know what you're up against.

    Now you could say in PvP situations everyone is locked into the same abilities. Doing so is counter to the rest of the game and jarring to players. Players who somehow find value in choosing their abilities would be quite bothered by such a developer decision.
  17. nomotog

    nomotog Cupcake-About-Town

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    How about this. Anyone who thinks that 9 is enough, design a build using only 9 skills that you made up. If we can do that, then it's reasonable to expect that carbine can do it too. Only better. Sound good?

    (I'll be musing one up right now.)
  18. Ayr

    Ayr Cupcake-About-Town

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    8 skill builds (PvP)
    http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Category:All_working_RA_builds

    Even though they're only 8 skills, many of them are surprisingly tricky to play well. That said, many of those are a lot of fun to play.
  19. ObliviousPrime

    ObliviousPrime "That" Cupcake

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    even though I would like a few more than 9 (since I have more than that in Gw2 especially with the engi kits and the ele attunments)

    but for spellslinger (trying to think about a bust damage build)
    1-basic damage
    2- AOE damage
    3- short range portal to target (according to video it has a daze)
    4-channeled damage ability
    5- knock back
    6-immobilize
    7-cripple
    8-speed buff
    9-1 escape skill
  20. thrastorm7

    thrastorm7 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Honestly now, would you be happy with that? the rotation to think only is like piss easy!!

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