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How do you feel about "Limited" Action Sets?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Ingsoc, Feb 13, 2013.

  1. Soylentgreen

    Soylentgreen Well-Known Cupcake

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    Okay but say I'm in a battle with a boss so I use my basic attack and my channeled DPS ability and then if I'm at range and don't really have to do anything I'm sitting there not using anything till those come off CD or spamming two buttons.

    Another possibility is I mash all those to keep everything on CD since I have nothing else to do but that isn't really strategic, this limited bar with 9 skills looks like it's made to handle every situation you may get into by having a little of everything but doesn't give you many options when you actually get down to it.
  2. ObliviousPrime

    ObliviousPrime "That" Cupcake

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    I said more than 9 would be better. maybe there will be ability chains or something
    Plus I will be pvping so its a lot more situational than with regular mobs.

    Sorry I was not thinking in terms of boss fights.
    That build was what poped into my head as a basic burst damage build for pvp.
  3. Duckdee

    Duckdee Cupcake-About-Town

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    I find more than 6 to be a pain, but that's for a different reason.

    ---

    I've seen this argument with fighting games, some people just really like finger gymnastics, and think chess should be played standing on your head.
  4. Rotto

    Rotto Cupcake

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    To answer about reactive abilities with a limited skill set system.

    In an ideal setting, with a large pool of meaningful skills and synergies, that would be how you want to build your character.

    And as to the best "load-out" remark. Certainly players will copy the innovators and theory-crafters. But that will happen regardless of limited load-out or not. For the most part, people like efficiency.

    As far as doing all those things together, I think the crux of this issue lies in the fact that many of us are worried that there won't be enough to keep us engaged within the game without them.

    For instance The Secret World had a similarly limited skill set system, and while it worked, the issue came down to the core experience of the game itself. The fights weren't engaging. It was a rotation with very little movement requirements, a very shoddy dodge system, boring effects (unless they were bugged. Some of those were pretty difficult because being invincible is just kinda unfair) and came down to press 1, 2, 3 for loot and repeat.

    That is without a doubt a failure.

    So how to bring this back around full circle? One of the most touted ideas by Carbine is that they want you to play the game and not the UI.

    GW2 said something similar and while I'd argue that some parts of that game were good (active dodging IS a step in the right direction), the zergfest nature (another core game play experience) and lack of customization were big turn-offs.

    So what does this mean?

    It means a limited action set can be a wonderful thing if the core game play is engaging and designed with a limited action set in mind....and that there is a wide breadth within the abilities you can choose.

    You don't need lots of abilities to drag the attention away from the user so they don't focus on why the experience itself is actually a little bland if your game play experience is in fact, engaging and interesting.

    Limited Action Sets can achieve a sort of elegance that you normally can't find in games that let you do everything at any given time.

    Discuss it how you will, if you disagree with me at least keep it civil and as always, I enjoy reading and occasionally taking part in these discussions.

    I'm gonna go get some food. ;)

    And for the record: I'm not white-knighting for Wild Star. I'm just defending a system that some consider as "too easy" when there is plenty of depth to be found within it.

    Off the record:
    Even in games like WoW (haven't played in a few years) the amount of abilities you had to use on a regular basis were fewer or around ten. Maybe on some classes you could make the case but for their bread and butter, most classes used only a handful with any regularity and those that had to use more often went with macros.
    Zilvoran and starspun like this.
  5. gyves

    gyves Cupcake

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    I haven't known MMOs to be executionally difficult whether you have ten or forty abilities available to you at a time so forgive me if I don't understand your point.

    At the same time, a character like Sagat has numerous abilities available to him at any given time. You know what those abilities are from the select screen, and he can't surprise with a whacky ability you didn't know he had.
  6. Michael Dilley

    Michael Dilley New Cupcake

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    How many abilities do you really use in a given encounter? I was in one of the top raiding guilds on my server in WoW before burning out. I used at the most 6-7 abilities in my DPS cycle, plus dropping totems. I am not counting buffs as abilities since they last 30mins/till death. Sure I had some healing as well, but since I was specced for DPS, my healing was laughable and at the expense of my dps.

    If you are using 20-25 abilities in a single encounter you are doing something wrong.
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  7. Soylentgreen

    Soylentgreen Well-Known Cupcake

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    No need for apologies I'm just trying to iterate how severely limiting the current action bar is, PvE being my specialty I mainly focus on PvE problems and with a structure that changes raiding on a weekly basis to have different requirements in encounters having more options at hand would seem to be a benefit.
  8. ObliviousPrime

    ObliviousPrime "That" Cupcake

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    you can change your abilities out of combat though. so maybe in one boss fight you will slot certain abilities in another different ones.
  9. Soylentgreen

    Soylentgreen Well-Known Cupcake

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    Right but my argument would be in a 40 man raiding environment you want to reduce the amount of time people have to interrupt content to do things like this not introduce more of these kinds of things. I'm sure anyone who has ever done 40 man raiding has some horror stories about slow going and frequent breaks for people.
  10. ObliviousPrime

    ObliviousPrime "That" Cupcake

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    I am not really a raider. only did small ones casually so maybe that should be tested in beta and you could offer feedback on it.
  11. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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    i hope that the load outs for the bars is saved. so you open your "Load outs" options menu and pick your "boss 1" or "boss 2" bar, maybe pick a couple extra spells since you're doing this today instead of that, and go.
    Ingsoc likes this.
  12. Soylentgreen

    Soylentgreen Well-Known Cupcake

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    Shhh don't jinx my chances of getting in!
  13. Dragnog

    Dragnog Cupcake-About-Town

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    How much did you guys play of GW2? The reason that I bring it up is that these guys have a similar active combat style with the inclusion of tells will allow for some really interesting combos which I suspect is a direction that they will be going. It won't be as much what abilities you have but how those abilities work with others. Positioning and movement become way more important in comparison to a rotation. I don't know if this is the direction that they will go in but there was a couple of hints with the mention of finishers.

    Imagine if you will that you are in a raid - the most effective DPS to be had is by comboing abilities together so for example an Esper has a fire effect that when a Spell Slinger stands in it using a finisher move (the channel ability for example) they can double their DPS for their channel ability.

    Of course this is entirely theoretical but if you had a tell system - wouldn't you do something like that? I doubt that you will be standing still that long enough to actually go through a rotation so DPS will probably end up with more of a priority list of combos instead with the efficient use of their finishers.

    GW2 has already done this to a certain extent, but getting them to work effectively together was a real pain. When I was playing quite a bit of GW2 I noticed that many people were not switching weapons or comboing abilities, but I think these are the things that make the combat system so deep in GW2. If you were not switching you were really limiting yourself and that in effect gave you another 5 abilities.

    Of course this might have all changed, but I have a sneaky suspicion that Carbine looked at that and went (like I did) "That is awesome!" and will be doing the same sort of thing.
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  14. thrastorm7

    thrastorm7 Cupcake-About-Town

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    gw2, didnt have 9 abilities... with weapon swap you had 5 extra...
  15. ObliviousPrime

    ObliviousPrime "That" Cupcake

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    if you are an engi or an ele you have more than that
  16. thrastorm7

    thrastorm7 Cupcake-About-Town

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    True...
  17. arnold

    arnold Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well, I made a list of keybinds I used just for raiding, for progression and farm alike. This doesn't count any macros, which some fights required several. Damage: swp, dp, mb, mf, vt, sear, swd, mind spike, fiend, halo. Consumables: potion, trinket, tinker, healthstone, nitro boost, parachute cloak. Utility: hymn of hope, fear, psyfiend, shield, dispersion, dispel, mass dispel, pom, flash heal, fade, shadowform, life grip, fearward, levitate.

    All of those were bound, as well as macros and buffs. Did I use all 31 in one encounter? It's possible, but not likely very often. That number probably ranges between 12-17. Did I use them often enough to warrant a permanent spot on my action bar? You bet!

    Is it possible to use a maximum of 10 abilities, sure, I don't see why not. It will depend on the kind of abilities they give us. As long as it doesn't feel restrictive to the point of sacrificing something you need for something else you need, no problem.
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  18. nomotog

    nomotog Cupcake-About-Town

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    Now to me that feels all too basic. I think one one of the things they can't do is just do 9 basic spells.

    Here is my idea for a healer build.

    Here is my verson of a 9 spell healer.
    Kitten claws- This would be a debuff that you cast on a monster and makes it so their next telegraph heals your friends rather then damaging them. It acts as a healing spell, a debuff and a interrupt A very potent ability.

    Crystal lock- This spell would root a creature inside of crystal spire that also has a healing aura. This stands in as nice root also mixed with some AoE healing.

    Ghost walk- This one would cause you to phase out of existence. Well phased, you would leave behind healing foot prints and be immune to damage. This acts as a nice escape well also functioning as a AoE heal.

    Monkey curse- This power is actually 3, but they all use the same button so it still counts. The first time you cast this, it's a sleep spell, second time it's a blind spell, finale time it's a silence spell. Casting it a 4 time would remove all the debuffs and start the rotation over again.

    Transfusion- This would be an Aoe or maybe a direct fire attack. Not only would it damage, but it would also heal the friend closest to the monster.

    Actually i am going to stop at 5 because I'm running out of ideas, but you can see where I am going with this. Having more complex spells allows you to do more with less. This build covers most of what you would want in a healer including ample healing. If you need something else I think you could fit in in one of the 4 slots you have left.
  19. Dragnog

    Dragnog Cupcake-About-Town

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    What if knock back, immobilize, cripple and your speed buff were all based off of combos with other characters similar to GW2?
  20. Kirathis

    Kirathis Cupcake-About-Town

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    I am a bit mixed on this front. While I was fine with it back in the days of EQ, later implementations such as GW2 drove me NUTS. However, the main difference there was a very limiting set of abilities. As long as there is a decent set of abilities and different options serve an actual purpose, I am fine with that. It would be especially nice if you could pre-stage bars for quick swaps. That way if I needed to go from DPS to healer or tank or whatever the case may be, I would not have to individually swap each item.
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