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How is crafting going to work and will it be worth it?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Alverant, Oct 4, 2013.

  1. Cogburn

    Cogburn Cupcake-About-Town

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    For me, the best idea by far is to have the top crafting gear any Joe Normal can get to be the level of gear you need to get into lowest tier raiding, on par with the gear you get from veteran 5 mans (have the materials needed to craft these pieces drop in the veteran dungeons) so that you're not stuck there if your set doesn't drop after 500 runs.

    Then have schematics that are BoP in the raids that require materials from the same raid it drops in that helps you build pieces to a set for the next tier of raiding (also on par with the gear that drops in that raid) in order for the big guild crafters to help new guild members get on par with the rest of guild without having to send them all the way back through. Rinse and repeat for every raiding tier.

    People who don't raid wont ever have a reason for upper tier raiding gear, but will have multiple ways to be ready to start raiding should they ever decide to and still be decent in their solo endeavors.
  2. Xecks

    Xecks Cupcake-About-Town

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    well as i see it 2-3 hours a day for 2-3 days should be enough to get a raid done . it shouldnt take more than that and it would be just fine for a casual to be able to commit to .
  3. Ellianar

    Ellianar Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well your range si too wide imo, you go from 4 hours to 9 :D. For me 3 hours, 3 day/week ( 9 hours total ) seems like a decent amount of time to clear raids after a bit of gearing and learning.
  4. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    I'm not really sure where people are in this thread. It sounds more like generic statements are being thrown around based more on emotion rather than the good of the game. Naturally, the good of the game is relative to the desires of each type of gamer who finds themselves a fan of the MMO genre.

    My view:

    I personally favor that superior gear for their respective content paths be obtained through the content itself or otherwise be very challenging to obtain without doing so. This poses a problem from crafting, as it is largely its own mini content path outside of the major content paths. In more traditional MMOs, crafting has been a sideshow to the big content draws like raiding and PvP. I have reason to believe WildStar won't veer too far from this standard.

    To ensure that people only gain superior gear for a content path by participating in that content path, you obviously need to make sure that every way to obtain superior gear for that content requires you to engage in that content. That means that the requirements to craft these superior items must dwell solely in their respective content paths and in their appropriate tiers should there be any. Now we must ask, should superior gear for certain content paths be obtained solely through that content or is it acceptable for there to be ways to gain superior content-oriented gear outside of their respective contents?

    My understanding of the exclusivity argument is that great gear should require players to engage in similarly challenging content that relates to the right type of gear in order to obtain it. In other words, they should earn it by doing the same content as most everyone else who's done it.​

    On the flip-side, others just want to be able to get cool-looking and perhaps powerful gear as well, but they don't want to be compelled to raid or PvP heavily to get it because they don't like that content. Correct me if I'm wrong here but this is the impression that I'm getting.​

    Now, which is better for the "greater good"? Even if it takes a lot of time, effort, and work to gain superior gear regardless of what kind of work is involved, does the kind of work, assuming all else is roughly equal, involved in getting this gear matter or doesn't it? Should raiders ultimately have to raid to get raid gear, PvPers to get PvP gear, etc. or should this gear be more accessible, even if it is gated behind high cost, ultra-rare materials/patterns and other miscellaneous challenging and time-consuming systems?

    As it pertains to crafting, I'm not opposed to seeing outsiders obtain superior gear from crafting, but it really depends on how this is done. Powerful gear, regardless of content paths, ultimately HAS to be exclusive. This is to create incentives and makes the acquisition of "epic" gear truly satisfying. Making the most powerful gear in the game too accessible not only trivializes the experience of getting what is supposed to be rare, ultra-strong gear but also gimps competitive raiding and PvP and trivializes the content as well by making gear too easy to obtain and thus making the content easier to overcome, perhaps too easy.

    Therefore, crafting powerful gear I believe ultimately has to be a harsh, daunting process for dedicated and skilled players. Ideally, a lot of this should require players to engage in the content the crafted gear is oriented towards, but really any process that makes the powerful gear reserved for dedicated, competitive players is okay with me. This is the best solution to the issue IMO. It also makes crafting relevant in high-end content while keeping the corresponding gear/items made exclusive to those competitive players.
  5. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    They are in the same circular argument they always are every time a new person starts one of these threads. Game design, quotes, etc are all ignored and the arguments get re-stated as if it's the first time anyone has ever said them...it's pretty easy to figure out. ;)
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  6. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Exactly what i've been saying :D But then came the people saying ''crafting is skill-less and raidning is bla bla bla''.

    Yes currently in a lot of game crafting is skill-les, but that's the thing that has to be changed!

    Atleast Xlugon is open to the idea by saying exactly the same, that if it takes more skills/time etc. then why not?
  7. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    IMO crafting does tend to be skilless if we're talking about once you open up the crafting interface. In WoW at least, you press a button. That is skilless if you look at it from that angle.

    I like how early EQ2 did it, except their crafting was FAR too tedious and had too many middle stages that just weren't necessary. They eventually fixed that. EQ2 had crafters press a sequence of crafting-specific skills to keep the quality bar on the gear as high as possible. If you pressed the wrong button, especially when a different condition was currently active, you would mess up your item and it would lose quality. Losing quality ultimately led to an item with lower stats, making the crafting "game" meaningful.

    Devs can do a lot with crafting. We don't need some monstrous, major content path solely for crafting. Just make pressing buttons meaningful, not just the acquisition of mats and you have a really great crafting system to work with.
  8. Roadblock

    Roadblock Cupcake-About-Town

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    The overarching expectation / hope imho is that WildStar tries to be a skill game.
    That doesn't mean it should have just 1 skill level "highest".

    I hope it's a gradient unlike the trend that has games be 90% trivial, 9% normal, 1% superhard in terms of content distribution.

    Along those lines I find myself agreeing with Xlugon Pyro on this subject.
    We know from early developer interviews that they aim to have gear tailored to the purpose:
    - Solo gear for soloers, that's decent for group content but not as good as gear acquired in group content.
    - PvE gear for group content that's decent for solo content but not as good as gear acquired in solo content.
    - PvP gear ... (you get the picture).
    How they choose to make that happen is not very clear at this point (will it be the equivalent of +hit needed for group content and not for solo? we don't know) but the intention is there.

    Accordingly the crafter that wants to produce competitive solo gear should need to engage in solo challenging content (defeat an instanced skill test to get the needed material?)
    The crafter that wants to produce competitive pve group content gear would need to engage in group activity (raid drops needed for the craft?)

    Make the skill-based challenge theme prevalent and tune accordingly, not the grind part.
    Grinding trivial content for 30 days to make a high power piece is not skill based challenge it's time-consuming and tedius.
  9. Jabberwocky

    Jabberwocky Well-Known Cupcake

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    Carbine should just get rid of crafting or get rid of crappy items that have no use except for skilling up.
  10. Vyver

    Vyver "That" Cupcake

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    Hey, I asked you for your sources on articles in the last page to provide some solid material for this thread to debate on, but I'm still waiting for those. You can't just claim "people are ignoring game design" when the only time "game design" is brought up is when someone says "X WILL RUIN THE ENTIRE MMO" and nothing further.

    Nobody can take the highroad in this so don't even try, you and Jabberwocky are as guilty in contributing to this nonsense as everyone you're pointing fingers at.
  11. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    There are articles and discussions all over, it's the "consume content too fast" topic.

    Those are the players described in the articles/discussions and no it's not Paragon or Ensidia that are coming to the forums and making these demands, but yes, I would also call the people who are "jerks".
    You may interpret the articles differently, I think they made it clear that those players and their "demands" are dragging MMO's down and they don't feel it's a sustainable way to function.

    I'm sure there will still be fast food MMO's in the future, I just don't see as many of them.
  12. Vyver

    Vyver "That" Cupcake

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    No, no. That's not how debating works. If you claim "there are articles of game developers bashing the current trend in mmos" you have to provide examples, you can't just say "they're all over, look for them" and then try to explain them in your opinion and words.

    I can't even "interpret the articles differently" because I can't possibly read them if you don't provide them for the thread to read.

    Pony up or pony out.
  13. Jabberwocky

    Jabberwocky Well-Known Cupcake

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    Or you can learn to use Google and do your own research.
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  14. Vyver

    Vyver "That" Cupcake

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    ....no, if someone states something as fact, they are the ones responsible for backing it up.

    What, you want welfare talking points? I thought you hated people not working for their credibility. Seems kinda hypocritical for someone to go pages about hating people who don't work for their stuff, and then refuse to work to debate their own talking points.

    scrubs
  15. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    Ya sorry but I'm not going to go dig around, I don't need you to believe or agree with me, I don't think I would expect it even. The consume content topic has been a blue discussion since Panda came out and one of the reasons for them slowing people down with the grind they put in, that was part of the discussion over there.
    Other articles have come out recently talking about the same thing, I know at least one was posted here, but so many people post articles here it's tough to pinpoint.

    Edit - besides how can hardcore players be the issue when there haven't been any MMO's with exclusive hardcore content...all of the MMO's nowdays give everyone everything.
  16. Dargenus

    Dargenus Cupcake-About-Town

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    Tbh, for a themepark MMO, crafting is usually done best as a supportive contributing activity. Taking your raid gear and improving it. Potions, powerups, repairs, enchantments, quality of life improvements. Unfortunately, a lot of recent MMO's have made things so easy that even this is no longer necessary and gets phased out.
  17. Vyver

    Vyver "That" Cupcake

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    Fine fine, so you don't believe in your own talking points enough to back them up, I believe you.
  18. Jabberwocky

    Jabberwocky Well-Known Cupcake

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    They don't need to back up anything. If you don't believe it, go waste your own time searching for the answers and prove them wrong.

    [​IMG]
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  19. Vyver

    Vyver "That" Cupcake

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    Yeah, they do, that's the point of discussion, everyone is responsible for their own topics and if they want to prove that their personal opinion/topic is correct, they back it up or at least post an article that they talk about.

    I'm not even trying to prove anyone wrong right now, I'm just wondering how with all this raging over people doing their own work, the people advocating doing their own work is terrified of doing their own work. You can post all the old memes you want, it doesn't change that.
  20. Prof. Walrus

    Prof. Walrus Cupcake

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    Well I know one system that worked very good for (high end) gear and was almost impossible to create in bulk to sell. Lineage II's crafting. I worked together with my brother, both as spoilers (a Dwarven class) and together we hunted for days to get the recipe (yes, the recipe was to be looted too. Each time) and the materials, some of which we needed 1000's for one single sword. After days of gathering we finally managed to start the crafting process.. But since most high end recipes had a 60% success rate, of course 99% of your crafting fails, as is the rule of games.
    Now I have to admit this amount of gathering became very boring, especially after a failed craft. But the system was so tedious that it was almost impossible for players to create tons of class S gear just to sell them for cash. Then again, the game didn't have an AH so buying the required materials was just as tedious as gathering them yourself.

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