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How seperate should gear be- PvP v.s. PvE

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Kyrios, Jul 2, 2013.

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How different should PvP and PvE gear be

  1. PvP gear should be interchangeable with PvE gear without any differences

    17.7%
  2. PvP gear should be usable for PvE but not optimal

    48.2%
  3. PvP gear should require Separate stats and not have needed stats for PvE (i.e. Hit rating)

    31.7%
  4. Other- post with response

    2.4%
  1. PlayerOne

    PlayerOne Cupcake-About-Town

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    The thing is, the person who plays more should, in a well made game, already have an advantage. They should, through more time playing/practising, be a better player. To throw an advantage via better stats at someone who should already be a better player to me is stupid. It makes no sense at all. And I can't think many places away from MMOs that it happens.

    It just seems to be a weird quirk that lingers around MMOs.
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  2. jackashflash

    jackashflash Cupcake-About-Town

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    How does it not make sense. If you dedicate more time, then you get rewarded for that time spent. What you are suggesting is not only contradictory to MMOs, but our understanding of social order as humans.

    What if your boss said that to you? Well I know you worked twice the hours, but I am still only going to pay you for 40 this week. Due to the extra time you put in you are already faster at making your weekly widget quota, so I don't want you to have a larger advantage over your fellow coworkers.
  3. Outlaw

    Outlaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    Probably because a lot of people like the way it's been working. I, personally, don't believe that time = skill. Some people grasp things at different rates. I've known good players who could literally breeze by people who could or have played longer because they have a better grasp of things and LUCK (in PvE). If two people are equally skilled AND lucky then the person who puts in more time would have better rewards because they've had more chances to get something. When you're talking skilled vs non-skilled then it's completely different...or it will be in W* if their ELO system works they way it should.
  4. PlayerOne

    PlayerOne Cupcake-About-Town

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    I never said time = skill. I said the person who plays more already has an advantage.

    Many of those people don't convert that advantage into their play but in a lot of cases it doesn't matter because the game serves them up gear to cover the cracks.

    That is broken in my opinion.
  5. PlayerOne

    PlayerOne Cupcake-About-Town

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    No it isn't.

    What you're suggesting and what MMOs use is not seen anywhere else really. You are suggesting that Lionel Messi should be/is given magical boots, shin pads, socks and so on that make him an even better player than he is. Or that some dullard who works their butt off as a janitor should earn more money than a genius who makes the company billions by working 3 hours a month.

    You want your A for effort rewarded to the point where it covers up your lack of talent when that isn't the way the world works. Only MMOs work like that. Currently they are the Special Olympics of online games. A talentless tryhard's paradise.

    Skill is what is rewarded. And it is not rewarded with things that make you more skillful. It is up to the individual how much time and effort is put in to attain the desired skill level. The only advantage a player should gain by time and effort is through more skill. Hanging better and better stats on someone because they play lots is ridiculous.

    And don't read this as elitist. It isn't. A system where everyone is given the same chance is inclusive. The current system breeds elitism.
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  6. ImpactHound

    ImpactHound Cupcake-About-Town

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    I sure don't miss taking a Hand of Rag to the face when my best gear was a painstakingly assembled 8/8 Dreadmist and blue staff from Dire Maul.

    If WoW had lauched with the LFR accessibilty of today it might not be so bad, but even now you'll see "real" raiders double LFR players on meters, so even in that situation I wouldn't want to be he undergeared on the receiving end of a raider's frostbomb.
  7. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Real raiders are doubling lfr players for many more reasons than just gear. Which is exactly why making raiding as accesable as they have is so sad. Gear will cover some of the cracks, but the gear you have is only as good as you know how to use it.
  8. ImpactHound

    ImpactHound Cupcake-About-Town

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    The biggest thing I see are people not using cooldowns. I get saving them when you're questing solo for an emergency, but usually that emergency never comes. Lo and behold, warlocks aren't releasing their Doomguards(or even cursing the target for a flat 5% buff on every caster!), or monks aren't summoning Xuen on cooldown, or at all!

    I think the worst thing you can do in LFR as a warlock is dropping your demonic portal in the wind area right at the beginning with the trolls. It's there for the tank to run out, grab ghosts, get back to the healers/DPS quickly. And then when the way is clear, 5 poeple get a head start down the path. What happens? 3 dumb hunters take the portal OUT with the tank, get stranded with the 1-way debuff, and DIE because they don't feign death.

    Those portals are still fun on outdoor bosses too, someone always clicks it and gets flung into the boss before people are ready.
  9. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

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    This game doesn't serve anyone gear to cover up any cracks.

    In PvP, BGs the Entry Level are normalized like you want. Arenas and WarPlots are not, however they still follow an Elo System (BGs have an Elo as well) so you will only climb the ladders if you are Good, which leads to the Best Gear. Not solely by Time Spent but whether you are good or not, guess what? You still have to play the game.

    Asking for everything to be equalized/normalized is a Sandbox feature and a very poor/lazy game design, but if you find that fun and skill based well...I hear GW2 has this feature implemented.

    As far as PvE, it is debatable and I have debated about it, but I believe it will be a progression system as well. Rewarding Raiding for the difficulty, since they have stated they want 1% content.

    This should be your argument. Not that Time benefits Players in this game, since it doesn't by what Carbine as Stated already.

    Basically, your Argument is to not Reward Players for Skill. There is a huge Thread already debating this. Chasing Gear is a Big incentive for Players and you want to get rid of it completely. Doing this it diminishes Competition, Replay Factors, and completely gets rid of The Trophy Effect. These things cause the Majority Players to either Quit or Play Less.

    Here is the other thing you keep missing. The Elo System. This not only defeats your Time Argument, but greatly diminishes the whole Rewarding Skillful Players Argument. With this System as far as Instanced PvP, there will be little to no Advantage, since you will end up in a Bracket with similar Skilled Players. They will be just as Geared as yourself and this only Implies to Arenas and WarPlots, since BGs will be completely Normalized/Equalized.

    As far as WPvP, your point is valid though. We can debate this as well but there is a Thread already, where this is debated as well.
  10. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

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    Your first statement is valid to a degree, however that is only at the Arena System. Which is the 2nd Tier of Progression. Not to mention that is more of a Balance Issue and Small PvP Issue, which to a degree is always going to be a Back and Forth Issue. WarPlots are 40v40, so I doubt comps will be as big as a factor like in Arenas. Sounds like you have an issue with Arenas.

    If you are talking about WoW, then you are wrong. There is a weekly Cap on Arena Points and a Rating Required so..I don't see this Gear Grind you speak off. Unless you are talking about Unranked BGs Gear Grind to get the Starter PvP Gear. Which I already told you Wildstar will Normalize/Equalize BGs since it will be the Entry Level PvP Tier, so you can get the First Tier of PvP without getting slaughtered due to Gear.

    Even if the game is good enough, Gear is a major incentive in any MMO and considering this isn't some next Gen MMO, we can expect very similar aspects of a Traditional MMO with Action Combat. Why can't it be both? You act like it isn't possible to be able to queue and enjoy the content and end up being Rewarded with Gear based on your Elo Rating. This is what a Good Instanced PvP System is. If you hate it, then once again sorry but maybe this game isn't for you.

    Swtor was an unpolished Game. It had no Ranked PvP system until like a year into the game. It was nothing, but a Gear Grind for Unranked PvP. However you misunderstood my point. It wasn't about Gear Grinds, it was about Normalized Gear. Which even Swtor had a progression System for its PvP Gear, so I don't understand the whole LOL! and what now? comments. You can try again though if you want.

    Having people on an equal footing is about as far from a Sandbox Feature as you can get? Hmm GW2? The most hyped PvP Sandbox game to date didn't implement Normalized Gear? I didn't play those other Sandbox Games, but I might actually check them out if they have a Progression System like I guess you are insinuating. However, I am pretty sure this is not the case.

    Hmm not totally sure at what you are getting at in this paragraph. You want a System where Players don't Play the game a lot, but you expect them to keep getting better? If you are talking about PvP then you are wrong. Gear is nothing more than an Incentive and Trophy in Instanced PvP with an Elo System. There is little to no advantage with this System Implemented so... And not just that but it helps keep Players coming back and playing the game. This helps Players get better, it isn't some stats hanging for Advantages.

    If you meant PvE, then it is pretty much the same Reasons as PvP. Gear is an Incentive and Trophy. You get Rewarded base on Difficulty. Gear also plays a big role in possible mechanics. If you Normalize all Gear, you eliminate a lot of the min/max and you get rid of Gear checks as well. You basically make it unbalanced. Where the Top Guilds will Burn through content in Days instead of Weeks. Losing this entire demographic due to lack of content.

    I don't see how this makes it Stronger. You point is only Valid for maybe the First Month of the games release and the First month of Expansions. Where you can get a jump by Leveling to Max Level first. However once everyone catches up then everything will balance its self out. You even mention that yourself.

    We don't even know what the initial Gear Grind looks like. I honestly don't see the problem. BGs will be normalized/equalized so no matter how under geared you are. You will have no problem with getting the First Tier of PvP Gear. Then move on to the next Tier. There will most likely be a weekly cap on Arena and WarPlots points as well. It isn't like they will be able to grind out all the Arena and WarPlots Gear in a Week. Not to mention the people who get the Jump will most likely be in the upper Rating Brackets so I don't see this being a major problem when you Start off in Arenas or WarPlots at least the good ones.

    They are the same in an Elo System. Skill gets you the Rating Required to get the Best Gear. You will be placed against similar Skilled Players, since they will have the same Rating and be in the same bracket. Everyone with that Rating will have the same Gear or very close to it.
  11. PlayerOne

    PlayerOne Cupcake-About-Town

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    That's not just me. There are reasons why no MMO has ever been a particularly successful esport despite the ridiculous sums of money that have been thrown at them. Arena doesn't work. It's far too dependant on class/spec and comp balance which can never ever be perfect.

    That weekly cap is only a factor if your character is fully geared from the previous season and you cap points week after week. If not you will always fight uphill battles until you catch up which is pointless for a game that uses a Elo system. It makes a joke of it. An Elo system is a skill rating. When used as WoW uses it or Wildstar probably will it becomes a joke.

    Also you just skip over the fact that people are/will be forced to grind out gear in random, rager filled BG's when that's not what they want to do. Why force that grind on people? do you feel people should earn the right to queue for the PvP they are interested in in a game they pay/have paid money for?

    It's a game, not a job.

    No, it's your idea of what a good PvP system is. One game out of the many that have tried with it has had some success with it. All others that I can think of flopped hard.

    You tried to imply that PvP with an even playing field couldn't work and used GW2 as your proof for that. It was a silly thing to do. It proves nothing.

    GW2 is not a sandbox. Not even close.

    No. Just a system where skill is what decides the outcome in most fights.




    ...and I got bored.

    Your seemingly random capitalization and bizarre reasoning did my brain in.
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  12. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Balance is not the problem with mmo's being esports. If it were then Dota/LoL would be out of the running too since they are balanced similarly.


    Those of you that do not like the gear grind really need to stop using this as an argument. Virtually every hobby has some sort of time commitment. Every game has some sort of rule learning and setup required. Now you want to make the argument that the setup takes too long, fine, but honestly that generally means you should be playing a different game. If you only have an hour, you do not pull out Risk for example.

    You not liking it != flopped. Many of the games I am more than willing to bet you are going to name had numerous other issues than purely gear grind. If that is where you personally want to hang the blame then fine, but its always more complicated than that.

    So all luck should be removed also?
  13. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

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    You are going to have to debate with someone else on this subject. I am not interested in Esports. I am pretty sure there are plenty of people that can debate with you on that though. However, I do like Arenas. I enjoy small coordinated competitive PvP. Is there always going to be Optimal Comps? Yeah, but that doesn't bother me, since I have seen bad comps get high Ratings as well. You won't be Top 10 World with a bad comp, but if you take PvP that seriously in Arenas, then level an Alt.

    It isn't a joke. Your Argument is beyond counter productive. The whole point of a Game is to keep you playing. You want them to make a Game, where you don't keep Players playing. You want to them to make some Casual Game, where you can play once a week and have everything needed to be on a equal playing field. I am beyond Glad this isn't the way this game is going to be, or I wouldn't even give it a second thought.

    Cap points are simply to lessen the Grind and to Slow the Progress, so everyone can catch up. However, yes you do have to play the Game. I know what a STUPID statement, I mean who wants to play Games.

    If you don't like Random Rage BGs, then do Ranked Organized BGs they will be Equalized as well. Earn? They can queue for Arenas and WarPlots from day 1 when they hit Level Cap. As far as being playing on a competitive Level, then yes deal with it or don't play the game. No one is forcing anyone to play a Game with a Progression System. Hence, why they have different Games.

    You sound like those whining Casuals that have ruined MMOs for years. Crying about not being able to get all the content, because it was to hard. Crying about not being able to get the Best Gear, because you aren't good enough. You are probably one of those PvP Players that cry about dying due to Gear or believe you can't kill Players that are better Geared than you. Glad I don't have to play with you.

    I absolutely loathe your mindset about buying a Game. No way in hell should buying a MMO game mean you deserve everything given to you.

    That one game that millions play, yeah such a bad system. You honestly believe they flopped solely due to their PvP system?

    It proves nothing that an AAA MMO solely based on Normalized PvP didn't work out. Makes sense. GW2 isn't a Sandbox? What is it then? I am almost positive it is a PvP Sandbox MMO. It sure as hell isn't a ThemePark MMO.

    You keep mentioning the exact system that GW2 has implemented. Yet, you want another GW2? Go play GW2. I have the bizarre reasoning? You are debating for a system that is already in a game that isn't even a year old. While, Carbine has already mentioned you are wrong and you have no hope for this system you keep whining for, yet I am the bizarre one.
  14. PlayerOne

    PlayerOne Cupcake-About-Town

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    No, they aren't. Not even close.

    PvP is all those games have. WoW and it's clones are PvE games with PvP duct taped on the side. Balancing classes is impossible because it doesn't just affect PvP, it <REDACTED>s everyone else over.

    You also have to consider the time a player must invest in a character to get it ready to PvP in an MMO. It takes a lot longer to realize your class isn't viable for whatever reason and change.

    I am no expert on LoL or DotA but I am sure there are classes/characters/heroes/whatever they are that aren't viable for whatever reason and just get benched until they are in favour of one that is viable by most people. That can't happen in a regular MMO because of the gear grind.

    No not even close to every hobby has some sort of grind before you can be on an even footing. That's ridiculous. You think tennis players all start with a stick and get shat on for a month or two by players with racquets before they earn one of their own? No, you start with a racquet and your skill level determines how well you do . Does fishing demand that you have to catch a thousand fish by hand before you get a rod and bait? Find me a hobby that has something similar to an MMO gear grind.


    Wow....you are missing the point. You are agreeing with the point I was trying to make. I was offered Guild Wars 2 as an example of why non-gear grind games fail. I threw out SW:TOR as a joke piece of evidence as to why gear grind games can't work. It was sarcasm to show that throwing up single games that include or don't include a feature isn't good way to make an argument.


    Luck or RNG?

    Luck, no, you can't.

    RNG, large amounts of it, yes. Classes that proc strong damage, healing or defensive abilities ruin PvP in my opinion.
  15. jackashflash

    jackashflash Cupcake-About-Town

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    Do you have alternate accounts? Why would anyone like this post? Even the game dev is laughing at your ridiculous comments.

    Here read this analogy again,
    What if your boss said that to you? Well I know you worked twice the hours, but I am still only going to pay you for 40 this week. Due to the extra time you put in you are already faster at making your weekly widget quota, so I don't want you to have a larger advantage over your fellow coworkers.
  16. PlayerOne

    PlayerOne Cupcake-About-Town

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    That only matters if you are in awe of game developers and believe that everything that they say must be correct and/or wise. But there are more than enough poor and/or failed games out there to lead me to believe that that isn't true.

    Sweet, another work based analogy when talking about a game. That kind of says it all for me but hey, I'll bite.

    Should gear be handed out like hourly pay? You did 3 hours of tedious grinding today, here's what you earned, sort of thing?

    I'd much rather see people having fun. Maybe I am just strange.
  17. PlayerOne

    PlayerOne Cupcake-About-Town

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    Level an alt, grind out gear, hope it doesn't get nerfed....remind me why arenas don't work that well again...

    Who wants to play games while at a massive disadvantage is a better question.

    LOL. No. Look at what you are saying. You want to be given advantages regardless of talent based on the hours you put in.

    You want to be able to buy power with time because you want to be good at something but probably can't manage it without help.

    I totally agree. It should be earned through good play. Not through hours spent. I think you loathe the idea of a game where someone can play an hour a week and outplay the <REDACTED> out of you. I think that scares you. I think you like MMOs being the last stronghold of the tryhard bad online gamer.

    I see your millions and raise you the billions that don't play it.

    It isn't a sandbox.


    That's pathetic. One game tries it, fails to meet expectations for an untold number of reasons, you focus on one aspect and use it as undeniable proof that that system can't work. That really is clutching at straws.

    Consider how many games have tried and failed with the system you are so fond of. Many many more.

    I don't want another GW2. I didn't like the first GW2. It seems to me that you want another WoW though. WoW with bunny ears. You like bunny ears, big guy?
  18. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

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    You only need to make an Alt, if you want best Arena comp and you currently don't have the class. However you can get a High Rating even with Average or Bad Comps. I have done this and seen it done.

    Again with the disadvantage and now it has gone to massive disadvantage. After, I have explained it in depth that it isn't feasible with an Elo System.

    Buying power with Time? Sigh once again I already stated this in previous statements. You can spend all the Time you want, but if you aren't good you won't be climbing any Ranked Brackets, therefore you won't get the Best Gear. Not to mention the Teams you will be playing against in your Bracket will have similar Gear.

    You agree? Sure doesn't sound like it. What should be earned through hard play? You want Normalized Rewards. This is the whole argument. You earn nothing with your system. I don't loathe getting beat at all or beating on others. I loathe the idea of not having any Incentives, which leads to a <REDACTED>ty Casual game.

    Pointless statement. You can say that about any Game. Hell you can almost say that about anything.

    What is GW2 then? Please enlighten me. If it isn't a Sandbox and it isn't a ThemePark then that? Normalized Rewards, no progression system, free roam, WPvP and RPvP, no trinity, equalized from level 1, and dynamic events.

    Actually, yes I believe the best way is to not try to reinvent the Wheel but to modify it. So in a way I do want aspects that WoW has implemented. There are plenty of things WoW has gotten right. Hint the player base. Take aspects that WoW got right, correct some of the flaws they made with the game be it mechanics or design, add on to that base, and add action combat. Precisely what Carbine is attempting.

    All this is Irrelevant anyways. We already know the general game design, so good luck with finding another game.
  19. Deltre

    Deltre Cupcake-About-Town

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    I prefer them to be different and I'm sure they will be different no matter what. Just from a business standpoint making the fear divergent creates a timesink and will force people to play more to do what they want to do.
  20. jackashflash

    jackashflash Cupcake-About-Town

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    This. You would be better off arguing with a brick wall. It is pointless.
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