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How seperate should gear be- PvP v.s. PvE

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Kyrios, Jul 2, 2013.

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How different should PvP and PvE gear be

  1. PvP gear should be interchangeable with PvE gear without any differences

    17.7%
  2. PvP gear should be usable for PvE but not optimal

    48.2%
  3. PvP gear should require Separate stats and not have needed stats for PvE (i.e. Hit rating)

    31.7%
  4. Other- post with response

    2.4%
  1. PlayerOne

    PlayerOne Cupcake-About-Town

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    Sure, you can, but why should you have to? What you forget is that not everyone has the time to do that. Not everyone wants to do that. In the current system, the system you love so much, so much is down to luck. Did you get lucky rolling the right class, did you get lucky and your friends you want to play with rolled the classes that work with yours, did you get lucky with the buffs/nerfs and so on. Your solution is "hey, no problem, just re-roll" and that just isn't acceptable or an option to a lot of people. What should they do? Suck it up and become whipping boys for the jobless tryhards regardless of how good at the game they are? That, it seems, would suit you just fine.

    haha...who do you think you are? Some random tryhard with a habit for random caps all over the place and I am supposed to take your word for something? You're crazy.

    Look up the Elo system, read about why it was made and how it's meant to work and then explain to me where the gear grind fits into it. I'll give you a clue, it doesn't.

    Wow...you stating something does not make it true.

    By spending more time you will get the unranked gear faster, lowering the amount of people you have to fight on an even footing and raising the amount of people you out gear. Then, if we take WoW's past system as an example, since you are so fond of it, you use your higher point cap ("earned" from stomping people who have less gear than you) to extend the gap.

    Playing more makes it easier. It just does. We both know it.

    Why do you need an incentive to do something you enjoy. Playing should be the incentive. Winning a fair game should be the incentive. Achieving what you set out to achieve should be an incentive. Why do you need someone to say "well done, have a new thing to whack people with harder, make you feel good about the time you spent playing something you obviously don't like that much."

    What about that makes it a sandbox? Replace a quest grind with infinitely looping events doesn't make a game a sandbox.

    PS. It has classes. Sanboxes generally do not.

    But who decides what the flaws are? You seem arrogant enough to believe it should be you. A lot of people will tell you the gear grind is a major flaw, but here you are arguing that it's a major plus. Who's right?

    Do you have any idea how many games have tried to do exactly what you just said? Where are they now? Free-to-play bargain bucket failures for the most part.

    I love this. See game, side with everything it's doing, hide behind the classic "well I am right because the game is gonna be like this! Good luck finding another game!" game flops, you move onto another one anonymously and start again saying "I always knew that game would suck...."

    I have no doubt you would have posted like this on pre-release forums before. Back the game, use what has been announced as your bulletproof shelter, pre order a collectors edition, it sucks, you move back to the 1700 bracket in WoW for a bit and post on whatever the "next big thing" is fanboying the <REDACTED> out of it and anyone associated with it while spam refreshing your email and frantically checking your junk box for that beta invite that must come your way soon....right?

    I bet your shelf is littered with metal cases, worthless concept artwork books and little plastic figures.
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  2. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    Decided to read your post in order to check if you have anything borderline smart to say nowadays. Nope, I am happy I ignored you back when I did.

    Just the fact that you debate that Gear = Skill in PvP tells something about you. Most competitive PvP players would remove gear grind completely from Arena and let the skill be the only deciding factor on who wins and who loses.

    Take a moment to think why would a rating requirement of 22oo rating for weapons as example twist competitive gameplay in World of Warcraft arena? I rather let you think ansver to that question than pour ansvers in to a dry well.

    Like we say in Finnish "Kannettu vesi ei kaivossa pysy."

    That kind of a Ad Hominem attack really tells everything about you and how seriously you should be taken on these forums.
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  3. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

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    You are arguing about balancing Arenas. Once again I agree Arenas have balance issues. It goes back and forth almost every patch with classes. Perhaps you should take this issue up with a developer or simply don't play games with Arenas. I don't care.

    WoW proves this Elo System can work. To say the PvP system in the largest MMO doesn't work, then I can't help you. Not liking a system doesn't mean it doesn't work.

    In BGs, you can't outgear people. Arenas don't give Unranked Gear. Pretty sure neither does WarPlots. Not sure what you are getting at.

    You don't achieve anything with your system. Why do games need incentives? Really? Why do players want gear? Do you even read what you say?

    I listed the things already that makes it a Sandbox. Their class system is a Sandbox feature. You can basically play each of their classes anyway you want, any abilities, gear, weapons. Does that sound like a ThemePark class system?

    When did I say I decide the flaws? Obviously the game developers do and if the player base agrees with them, then they buy and play their game. Stupid question.

    Yes, they failed and each game has different reasons. My opinion would be they didn't modify it enough or add enough new features. Wildstar plans on adding housing, solo content, paths, action combat, and 1% content. It is still to early to see if it pans out, but that is what they are offering.

    Actually, this is my first time on any pre-release game forums. You also took what I said wrong. I was stating that we already know how the game design will be, so whining like you are will not change it. Whether you or I approve doesn't matter. You are also wrong about me, when it comes to MMOs. I do my research on the MMO and see if I personally would be interested, if so I buy the game. This has only happened with Vanilla WoW, Swtor, and now Wildstar.
  4. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

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    Don't even remember who you are, nor do I care if I am on your ignore list. Pointless to state that.

    When did I say Gear = Skill? Gear is nothing more than an Incentive and Trophy. Most competitive PvP Players make it to the Top Rating, where skill is the only factor. Such stupid points.

    <REDACTED> now I remember you. You are that person who barely speaks English and cried for like 4 pages about something. One sec maybe my Dog can read this <REDACTED>.

    Stating one of the biggest reasons that MMOs fail. In being casuals whining about not getting all the content or they can't get the best gear is wrong? Or that some casuals believe they only die due to gear differential or that they can't kill someone with better gear is wrong? Stating that I don't want to play with this type of person is wrong?

    Once again you act like I care about how seriously people take me. I only comment on posts that are stupid, or that try to ruin the game with casual bull<REDACTED>.
  5. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

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    Sounds about right.
  6. PlayerOne

    PlayerOne Cupcake-About-Town

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    The Elo system works OK. It didn't take an MMO to prove that. It worked OK long before MMOs and will work OK long after we're dead. But it isn't perfect.

    It works. You make a team, hit queue and at some point you'll probably get a game. It just isn't very good. To borrow a technique from you we can see it isn't very good by the lack of WoW arena tournaments and the general lack of interest in that part of the game when compared to a lot of the other parts.

    Yes you do. You just don't get given gear. You simply cannot distinguish between an achievment and something with purple writing can you. Every time you win you have achieved something. It's a game. Do you demand a reward for every game you play? If so you are unusual. Most people play games for the fun of playing it, they have done for hundreds, probably thousands of years.

    No, you listed things that you mistakenly believe make it a sandbox. Again, saying asomething does not make it true.

    lol...I am not whining. I am discussing my opinions on a discussion forum. I am not trying to change anything. Think of it like a game and I am playing it like normal people play games....for fun. I expect no reward.
  7. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    Indeed they do. But new players, who could be the new world rank 1 eventually are hindered by artificial skill walls gear brings. It used to be that some people who were 2300, maybe 2400 material were stuck under 2200 because all the teams above that bracket had tier 2 weapons wich the teams below them did not have. So on average in the games they played they were behind on damage and healing by default just because gear. This does not encourage competitive PvP.

    Sure 2700 rated players go straight over 2200 cap because they are just so good. Tho in my opinion ladder should represent skill level on every bracket let it be 1500, 2000, 2200, 2900. Your rating in a perfect world should have nothing to do with your gear.

    How do you think that kind of a Ad Hominem attacks benefit you?


    You were attacking a person, not his ideas or his debate or his arguments.

    Once again you act like I care about how seriously people take me. I only comment on posts that are stupid, or that try to ruin the game with casual bull<REDACTED>.[/quote]
  8. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

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    Never said it was perfect. I was simply trying to get the point across that it works and isn't a bad system. Since you agree it is okay, then nothing else to talk about.

    I don't know WoW has a pretty good size PvP community. It definitely has started to decline, mainly due to other aspects of the game and simply because the game is getting old.

    I must be weird then, because I do play games for rewards. Obviously the game must be fun as well though. I don't dislike game that meant for only fun purposes, nor do I hate on people who do like this games only. Personally, I prefer to be rewarded by difficulty and skill. Gear is simply the one of the biggest factors for a game to implement. As well as the competition factor with rating, etc...

    You still haven't told me what your opinion is. What is GW2 then? If nothing else it is a Sandbox Hybrid, similar to what this game is going to be in a ThemePark hybrid.

    It comes off that way. We both know how the game design is going to be. Whether we approve or not.

    It comes off like a tantrum, where you didn't get your way. Once again though, I have no problem with you liking a certain system. Personally, I don't like your system but you won't see me on a game that implements your system and continually state my opinion for pages on the pre-release forum. It is pointless.
  9. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

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    Gear doesn't bring those walls. It is the game design. They want you to play their game as long as possible, so they don't give you everything from the start. It is the same in PvE with gear check bosses.

    Gear actually comes along pretty easy. Yes, you do have to actually play the game to get it but I have never found gear to be hard to attain. I don't see much of a gear grind with this system. Now if you want a gear grind then you should of played some of the older MMOs.

    See this is the problem, I have. Perhaps it is only a personal thing, but I never had problems in Arenas where the other team had a gear or two on me. I simply feel skill can easily cover a gear or two difference. Not to mention we don't know how the brackets will be. It could be every team above 2200 won't be matched up, therefore you won't see a team with that tier 2 weapon. Your example is also not an every time occurrence, it is simply a possibility.

    It wasn't an attack. I remembered who you are, then made a joke. Sorry, if I don't show much sensitivity towards another man, especially over the internet.

    I wasn't attacking him personally. I was stating what his ideas sounded like, then gave examples on what I dislike and what have ruined past MMOs based upon his ideas. Not sure what is wrong with my last quote. I gave you the truth on what I comment on. I won't be as blunt with my comments, but if I reply to one of your posts then you now know why I did.
  10. Myrrdhinn

    Myrrdhinn Well-Known Cupcake

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    <Moderator growl> Please, tone down the hostility and the personal attacks! Aggressively stating that you are right doesn't make you right. If someone doesn't agrees with you, accept it! </Moderator growl>
  11. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Even LoL has an important pve component, which is exactly why many teams have a jungler. As for how you are talking about the meta, you have just revealed how little skill you actually have. You are responding to what others tell you about the meta instead of reading it itself. How many times in WoW has a class been shown to be "worthless" yet those very classes were used to win major tournements? These are the very things that change meta's and make them work. Look at Magic: The Gathering. Top players do not netdeck, they prepare and generally judge meta's correctly, which is exactly why Grand Prix and Pro Tour's lead to entirely different deck types that were not popular before them.

    Are you purposefully taking things out of context now? There is a reason I said "Time commitment" and not gear grind. Wargaming for example has part of your score dependent on how well your army is painted, and that is without looking at making sure you have all of the peices for your list. Board games have the setup of the game itself before you can even play, which is why I brought up Risk, a game that takes 30min+ just to setup before you can even begin. Even your fishing analogy has you having to buy a rod, and collect all of the types of lures you need, tacklebox, etc.

    Except you are being a hypocrite. If there is no "gear grind" it must be replaced with something else. If you don't there is no community, and it has no meaning.

    Luck and Rng is the same thing. And again, that is contrary to all game design wisdom. Yes, sometimes developers get it wrong, but that does not mean you throw out the book as you seem to advocate. Here are a couple things you should look at:

    http://www.wizards.com/magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/119
    http://boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/9697/how-to-measure-luck-vs-skill-in-games
    http://www.thegamesjournal.com/articles/WhatMakesaGame.shtml
    http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1018053/Candy-Crush-Saga-Postmortem-Luck
  12. Deify

    Deify New Cupcake

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    Both sets should be useful in PvE/PvP imo, with a little change that some pieces should be really hard to obtain and make a diffrence. I think its cool that pvp-ers should do also pve to see the content, to have better adventure, maybe mix like armors with accessories or something. But mindless pvp only grind is equal to pve grind.
  13. PlayerOne

    PlayerOne Cupcake-About-Town

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    I agree it works. But I am saying the added element of a gear grind breaks it.

    Strange since everything I hear is that the games subscriptions aren't particularly falling off. If that's right and what you say is right that would mean PvP is dying within a game that isn't.

    Whoops. You may have just taken your own argument outside and put a bullet in the back of its head.

    Mercy killing in my opinion.

    So when your friends ask you to go for a kick about in the sun you ask what you get in return. How about two hot girls on the beach ask your to play volley ball? No purples, no good? Young family member on a long car journey, no prize, no I-spy?

    This mentality is what holds MMOs back in my opinion. So many people feel so entitled to an endless chain of shiny rewards that they almost point blank refuse to do anything that doesn't end in something new to fill their bags. Now developers are left trying to dream up new grinds and new carrots to dangle rather than working on dragging MMOs out of the 90s.

    GW2 is a game. I am not obsessed with pigeon holing everything.

    It's not what I would consider a sandbox game though.


    Of course you wouldn't. You are too obsessed with rewards to even consider it.
  14. Outlaw

    Outlaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    How can an ELO system that takes gear into consideration be broken BY gear? Honestly, I don't truly understand what you have against people who play the game more than some others. Especially, since I work 60hrs a week and can still put in at least 20hrs a week on the games I enjoy. All I'm getting from you is that anyone who can play more than someone else is a jobless, unskilled, bad who is carried by the gear they earned while playing.

    I like putting in time for my gear. I like that the gear I get gives me bonuses besides a different skin. If I wanted to just jump in and play on pretty much equal footing with people I'd play FPS instead of MMOs. Over the course of this thread the topic has completely been forgotten in favor of arguing over why people who play more shouldn't be rewarded for the time they've spent playing vs playing for 1 hour and having everything equal.

    Honestly, I'm just glad Carbine is sticking with my preferred way of doing things.
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  15. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

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    You just said the system in WoW works and is "okay". It has a grind in it, so...does it work or is it broken?

    The game's subscriptions aren't falling off? What are you talking about? I read an article a month ago about WoW losing another 200k subscriptions. The game isn't improving on its numbers. It is bleeding out and will continue until they pull back some subscriptions with an expansion. Then lose the majority of those Players again after a few months and start to bleed out again.

    I don't kick about in the sun. The girls and the exercise would be the reward and I would have fun as well. The destination and plans once you get to that destination are the reward for the car trip. I'll give you a better example of my mentality, since your examples are lacking. I don't mind playing poker games for no rewards and only fun, however I have more fun when you attach a reward to a poker game. The reward doesn't have to be only money but it could something as simple as a piece of gum.

    I disagree. If I am going to spend 20 hours a week on Raiding or PvP, then I want to be rewarded based on my results from the difficulty. Would I continuously play a MMO for hours if I receive nothing? No, I wouldn't, even if it is fun. I would fall back to a casual status and play maybe 1 hour a day and eventually quit after a few months. MMOs need incentives to the fun base to really be big, it keeps players playing. I honestly don't have any problem with your system, but I don't see a normalized gear system ever being big or having a long life.

    Nobody is obsessed. You keep saying what it isn't, and I keep giving you features backing myself up so I want to know what you believe it is. However you keep dodging it. It has no progressions system or defined paths, so how could it be considered a ThemePark. Sandbox games allow you to do whatever the hell you want without any walls. Sounds like GW2. No class walls, no PvP walls, no leveling walls, no gear walls, and no PvE walls.

    So if I wasn't "obsessed" with rewards then I would join a pre-release forum for a game with a system that I don't like, and state my opinion for pages. Hmm... glad I am "obsessed" then.
  16. PlayerOne

    PlayerOne Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yet there it is, almost a decade old, still sitting relatively close to it's peak subscriptions and still arena PvP isn't doing that well. Why? Because it really isn't very good. It's a big, fat, clumsy and un-lubricated square peg trying to fit in a teeny tiny round hole.



    And there we go.

    Doing something you like with people you like should be the reward. Not shiny things with purple writing that make easy games even easier.

    Past MMOs need to use carrot dangling because they fundamentally aren't fun enough to hold interest without it. That doesn't mean it isn't possible to create a successful MMO that isn't gear grind based. It just means that no one clever enough or well funded enough has tried yet. Pretty much everyone, including Carbine it seems, in the last decade or so has be too obsessed with making a profitable (WoW chaser) game rather than one that is fun. It's like the difference between making music because you love it and believe other people will and engineered <REDACTED>e that people churn out for sales.

    It has levels...

    It has classes...

    What? It has classes. Very restrictive classes. It has levels. 80 of them. The PvP is very instanced and controlled. I honestly do not see why you think it's a sandbox and why it even matters to you. It isn't a sandbox. That much is obvious. What it is....no one other than you really cares.

    Why, again, the obsession with pigeon holing everything? Why does GW2 need to be a <insert classification here>? It is what it is. It doesn't matter what it is. You either want to play it or you don't. It can just exist.

    You can classify it as a very expensive failed experiment if you want. It can sit in the drawer just above SW:TOR which you would now presumably have to classify and a ridiculously expensive failed experiment. But no one other than you will probably give a <REDACTED>.
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  17. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

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    Relatively close to it's peak subscriptions? The peak was over 12 million and now they are around 8 million. Haha, I bet you don't even know the Arena numbers. You are throwing out false opinions/numbers and trying to blame the drop in player base due to the PvP system is beyond stupid, since it has been relatively similar for the entire game except for Vanilla which wasn't the peak. Obviously, the drop is heavily on PvE content and the casual heavy direction that WoW has went, which is precisely how you like it. Normalization of Rewards, and pointless "fun" content like pet battles.

    You dismiss my perfect example and go back to your horrible example. I do enjoy doing things even when there is no reward or by your definition of reward which is fun. However, I have more "fun", when a reward is attached. Whether that reward is miniscule doesn't matter. I will once again try to give you an example by improving your horrible example.

    I would have fun and enjoy playing volleyball with these girls, however I would have more fun and enjoyment if we attached a reward. I could be anything, a kiss, loser pays for dinner, or wte. This is my mentality and no it doesn't make the game easier sigh...I have continuously told you that gear/rewards are nothing more than an incentive and trophy.

    WoW wasn't fun? People only played it for the carrot? I believe millions would disagree.

    GW2 wasn't well funded? There have been plenty of well funded AAA MMOs that have normalized rewards. Pretty much all MMOs that have been released for the past decade are "WoW chasers". Do you even read what you say, I can easily name more Sandbox MMOs then ThemePark MMOs over the last decade. You maybe right as far as hyped MMOs over the last decade, however I can name just as many hyped Sandboxed MMOs as well, but as far as numbers, no. If the game/music is <REDACTED>, then why would it churn out sales? Obviously there is a base that enjoys it. Once again all because you believe it is <REDACTED>, doesn't speak for everyone.

    It has normalized levels. In fact levels don't even matter. I can queue as a level 1 and be on the same playing field as everyone.

    It has classes and the different abilities would be a ThemePark aspect, however other than that there is no walls. You can use any piece of gear/weapon. You can fill all class roles with any class. These are Sandbox aspects. I hardly see how this makes classes restrictive. If I wanted to be another class, I could simply make a level 1 and queue and be equalized.

    It is a Sandbox instanced PvP. It is RvR and WvW. ThemeParks, no offense to WPvPers but basically put WPvP as side content. They focus more on smaller PvP and organized PvP.

    You also misunderstood by what I meant by paths. ThemeParks whole game design is to lead the player base down paths in every aspect of the game, be it leveling, PvP, or PvE. Does GW2 do this? Hell no. You can do whatever the hell you want. That is the whole game design of Sandbox MMOs.

    Once again there is no obsession. You simply keep stating what it isn't and yet you don't say what it is. If you would simply answer the question and quit dodging it with this obsession statement, then I would stop asking. You act like you're knowledgeable about the subject, yet avoid giving your opinion.

    Whether or not I believe it to be a failed experiment is an irrelevant point to the current discussion.
  18. Another_Alex

    Another_Alex Cupcake

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    Fundamentally, this is my gripe with PVP gear :

    I PVE mostly, but I enjoy *WORLD* PVP, as does my partner. We enjoy meeting enemies and gauging our chances, think of it as a "Walking Dead" type experience : Not all enemies are nasty, in fact, I had cross-faction friends on most servers. There are few things more rewarding than rescuing an opposing faction member, getting thanked and perhaps meeting this person next time in case you need it. Somehow, saving a member of your own faction is "expected" and for me not that rewarding. So yes I enjoy world PVP, I enjoy crushing a noob 12-year old but I also enjoy helping the other faction when required.

    For me, that is the reward I get from PVP. Just that feeling of helping, or crushing, an enemy player. Sometimes I get crushed, and I learn from my mistakes or from my enemy's better skills, in that case that is my reward. I don't need or want gear, I don't need medals.

    Now with PVP gear, I can't tell whether I got beaten because I'm better or because the other guy had full PVP gear. I don't tend to "memorize" the PVP gear pieces, because I don't PVP in organized PVP. I don't enjoy organized PVP. So no more reward for PVP. Instead, it becomes a dull "Oh... ye he got full PVP gear, let's move on" and so world PVP is ruined for me. So PVP gear takes away my world PVP reward ( honor, lesson learning, satisfaction ) because I can't tell whether I won or lost because of gear or because of skill. If I barely won, did I really mess up or was I fighting greater odds and did I do a good job ? There is no way to tell because the other guy might have worn uber-PVP gear or none at all.

    Now, since I enjoy world PVP, I rolled on a PVP server. There's 10-year olds that love nothing more than farm a free PVP gear set and proceed to grief players that don't have PVP gear. Sure, the same can be said about level but at least I can easily see the level difference. I can see the level advantage number easily, but I can't see the PVP "advantage" number easily. ( I'll make a separate post about that feature request btw ).

    All of this could be solved by limiting PVP gear to PVP arena's. If PVP'ers want to level purely in PVP arena's, then let them do it, but don't let them then go do PVE and ruin our PVE experience because these noobs have never even seen a mob. Let them work for their PVE gear first, through normal low level instances or even questing.

    An before people say "PVE Raiders will win PVP matches all the time", this is fixed by PROHIBITING PVE GEAR IN PVP. Yes, that means lots of "naked" people in PVP, so what ? Give them a basic (free) PVP armor set that looks pretty decent but has no stats.

    PVE'ers aren't allowed to PVP with the top PVP'ers straight away, but somehow PVP'ers expect to be allowed to PVE with the top PVE'ers straight away.

    So the solution is really simple :
    PVP gear can't be worn outside of PVP arena's
    PVE gear can't be worn inside of PVP arena's.

    Problem solved.
  19. Ayora

    Ayora Cupcake-About-Town

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    <Mod Fab> That flame bait bro...</Mod Fab>


    Anyways, my opinion is rather simple. As an ex-grand fantasia player I applaud the idea of PvP gear being usable for PvE, and vise versa.

    It encourages PvE focused players to PvP. Don't like it? Never said you had too :3!

    [Insert hair flick here]
  20. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    I like overlapping gear in concept, but the best gear for each should be acquired within each. I think the proper effectiveness difference should be 5-15% for full set versus full set, but that is fairly easy to create through adjusting various PVP and PVE stats.

    The more difficult design problem with overlapping gear is the rate of gear acquisition in one sphere influencing the other. Overlapping gearing almost forces both sides of the playerbase (PVP and PVE) to do the other, even if they have no interest in doing so. For me I like both, so I will do both, so overlapping gear would benefit me. But I hate having to do things I don't like to maximize myself for the things I do like (daily quests and crafting profession bonuses I am looking at you). It doesn't make either of the experiences any better when you have players that don't want to participate but are rather compelled to. Now certainly you can limit the overall gear acquisition, but this hurts players that want to do both, and forces them to choose where they will focus their early gear acquisition. I really don't have an elegant solution to solve this problem.

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