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How seperate should gear be- PvP v.s. PvE

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Kyrios, Jul 2, 2013.

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How different should PvP and PvE gear be

  1. PvP gear should be interchangeable with PvE gear without any differences

    17.7%
  2. PvP gear should be usable for PvE but not optimal

    48.2%
  3. PvP gear should require Separate stats and not have needed stats for PvE (i.e. Hit rating)

    31.7%
  4. Other- post with response

    2.4%
  1. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

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    Finally, someone has a reasonable problem with this PvP system and I have admitted this problem. The biggest problem with this system is WPvP, not instanced PvP. I have no problem with this argument and trying to get the developers to listen.

    The issue is there is no way to justify giving top end PvP gear for doing WPvP. I don't feel the competition and difficulty of WPvP is even close to instanced organized PvP. You could farm scrubs all day or simply get fed kills like in Swtor with Ilum. The only way to balance WPvP to a degree is have specific zones meant for it that attempt to normalize/equalize gear and have buffs for lack of numbers. Example would be Wintergrasp. Where there was incentives to take it for raid bosses, mounts, BoA leveling gear, etc..

    I don't mind your gear opinion, but obviously it is a very extreme approach. It would turn off a large player base. You have to find a common ground between both aspects and try your best not to step on the toes of each player base. Carbine has really taken this into consideration with the whole 10% quote they mentioned earlier in this thread. PvP gear is useable in PvE, however not optimal and PvE gear won't be optimal in PvP nor will any trinkets or whatever be dropped in raids that are optimal for PvP.
  2. Another_Alex

    Another_Alex Cupcake

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    Well, there's a fundamental problem with that statement. "Not optimal" simply does not exist, it's a word created to appease the masses and make them think that it's really not that much of a problem, when it clearly is at least for 1 person in this community (me). Even 1% better gear will win every match every time between two equally skilled players, everything else being equal. Is that what PVP is about ? Why do we have to skew the results by introducing unfair handicaps for players that do not enjoy one part of the game but love the other part ?

    Then of course there's the argument that everyone will end up with the same PVP gear at some point, and if everyone wears the same gear, then there's no benefit to having that gear and thus the PVP gear has no reason to exist.

    The only reason players want PVP gear is so that they can stomp players that do not have PVP gear ( newbies ) by means of unfair advantage. And that is another problem with PVP gear. I don't care about that last problem as long as it happens inside organized PVP arena's, because I despise Arena type PVP content for several really good reasons and you'll never find me in an arena. But this becomes a problem when this gear is used outside of arena's against players that do not have time or the will to get PVP gear. Not everyone plays MMO's 5 hours a day or more.

    New players who enjoy PVP will be turned off by organized PVP because they will get stomped on their very first match over and over by players who have had more time to play - typically jobless teens that jump from game to game, trying to spruik their PVP needs to everyone else.

    I'm sure we all remember the SWTOR mess.

    Perhaps they should simply make all PVP gear free for everyone. That way, everyone is equally geared and skill alone will determine the winner. I'm sure someone will jump in at this point and say that in that case PVE gear should be free also. I don't mind that, let PVE gear be free. It's not the gear I'm raiding for, it's the challenge of beating a boss, the thrill of finding out a working strategy, the learning curse, the skill increase etc. And if I have to do it with the same gear as everyone else, that's fine with me. No purples would fix the gear nerd-raging problem too.
  3. Another_Alex

    Another_Alex Cupcake

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    <Mod> Is this pink or purple ? </Mod>

    You clearly didn't read my post. One of my points was that if I want to World PVP and PVE ( two things I enjoy in MMOs ), I **have** to wear PVP gear to defend myself from PVP-geared griefers because of the unfair advantage they have. The second problem is that if I do wear that gear, and I meet someone without PVP gear, my stomping such PVP-gear-less player would not result in a gratifying experience to me. So whether I win or lose, PVP gear ruins my world PVP experience.

    Hence, my argument to let PVP gear only be used in Arena's, where this gear is earnt, and the only place this gear could possibly have value ( except for the griefers who want to stomp players in world PVP ).

    I will roll on a PVE server if PVP gear can be worn outside of arena's, and I think I'm not the only one, due to organized PVP gear being used to roll, stomp and grief on PVE players who enjoy casual world PVP.
  4. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    The "two equally skilled players, everything else being equal." argument is a one in seventy billion trillion occurrence.
  5. PlayerOne

    PlayerOne Cupcake-About-Town

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    A game holding at 2/3 of it's peak after almost a decade. That casual heavy direction is a real killer, huh?

    And casual as opposed to what? The super hardcore skill-fest that WoW used to be? Because I don't remember that period of the game. As far as I can see it's always been a pretty easy game. PvE has always been just about churning out rotations/priority systems, learning very basic scripts, not standing in fire, having a high boredom threshold and a high tolerance for people talking it up to be something it isn't. Hard.

    Nice. I am cool with vanity gear rewards too.

    Glad that is settled.

    I didn't say anything of the sort. But you already know that.

    Is/was WoW a fun enough game to hold the sub numbers it does/has without a gear grind. No, I don't think so. That's why it's always had one.


    By "fill all class roles" you mean all classes can run around spamming damage. That is the only role in that game.

    LOL!

    I love when you make up names for stuff. I think the random caps give it that extra tryhard appeal.

    Yup, because it's not fun enough to sustain subs without a gear grind which is easiest to handle in instanced PvP.

    What? You are lead from looping event to looping event in that game and by event I mean something that rewards you XP when you complete the set tasks there. They are just like quests. It's still "kill 10 rats and click 10 apples....here's a reward"

    Because not everything needs to be pigeon holed. Your obsessive pigeon hole everything "logic" compels you to say stuff along the lines of "it's not a theme park therefore it must be a sandbox!" when in reality it doesn't have to be either.

    It's just GW2. A big derpy world full of tedious events and tame, skilless PvP full of people that just fool around for something to do and people who can't handle the competition in other games so filter into something easy where they can feel good while trying to convince anyone who will listen that GW2 is the pinnacle of online gaming....or that's what I always see whenever I log back in to see if they secured the funding to finish the game yet.

    BTW. They didn't. It's still piss poor.
  6. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

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    I was simply talking about the PvP to PvE gear transition. Where the best PvP gear comes from doing PvP and the best PvE gear comes from doing PvE. If you have a problem with this, then I can't help you.

    I also don't get why people say two equally skilled players. It is almost impossible to be completely equally skilled as another. A more accurate statement would be similarly skilled. Also, I disagree with the 1% better gear being the deciding factor in every match. You have to factor in luck, initiation, class. A few of the top of my head.

    That is the whole point. Gear doesn't matter. It only exists for incentives and trophies. The whole stomp newbies and under geared players only applies to WPvP. Which I touched on in my previous post. At least you have the common sense that some people lack on here, when it comes to Arenas. If you don't like them, then don't do them. You also don't need to play 5 hours a day. This is why MMOs implement a point cap, when it comes to higher tier gear. You can easily get the point cap with probably 10 hours a week. If that is still a problem, then yes it will take you more longer to get to the top brackets.

    That jobless statement sounds very similar one of the fools, I have talked to on here before. Whether you are him or not doesn't matter, but I don't feel to need to explain the game design again and talk about how stupid that statement is.

    BGs will be normalized/equalized so I don't see how new players will be turned off. WarPlots will be 40v40 so I doubt new players will be turned off by this, since this is obviously aimed for the hardcore team based PvPers. There will be no random queuing for this. Arenas are similar, but small team based. No, random queuing for this either.

    Not even going to touch that last paragraph. I could go on for a hundred pages with the implications of that trash and I have actually probably come close on these forums.
  7. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

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    Holding? More like bleeding. You were the one you said close to there peak in subscriptions. 66% is almost half. I would hardly call that close, unless you meant close to half.

    To bad, we can't play this game yet or if we played WoW at the same time. We could settle this whole pages of back and forth pretty quickly. I never said anything about a "super hardcore skill-fest". I speak on my eight year raiding experience and in my opinion the content has become casual friendly.

    Yes, it is a real killer. Wrath was their peak, then they normalize rewards, LFR, dumbed down talent system, mounts for everyone, pet battles, and everyone sees all content then yeah numbers talk. When you lose two million subscriptions after Cata and then lose another two with Panda, then yea a casual heavy direction isn't good.

    When did I say vanity rewards. Do you even know what vanity means? Basically worthless rewards. Hint the word worthless. That is not a reward. I mentioned a kiss or dinner. I never said a fake kiss or fake dinner. That is what vanity rewards are. Fake <REDACTED>.

    So basically you are saying WoW only held 12 million subscriptions due to a little fun and a gear grind. Yet, you believe gear grinds are not the way to go about it. Makes complete sense.

    Please give me an example of this magical dream MMO of pure fun that will revolutionize the MMO market if one exists, or is it simply your dream scenario for a future next gen MMO?

    Pretty sure you can also heal in GW2. Which is my point on the classes. There is no restriction as far as a trinity.

    Not sure how Sandbox PvP being instanced is new or some unbelievable occurrence. Sandbox PvP is mainly World PvP. GW2 simply made it instanced.

    Stupid point. Obviously they have ways to level if they have a leveling system. The point is that levels don't really matter in GW2. They could of simply got rid of it, but they figured it would keep people playing for a little longer. They give nothing more than the vanity rewards you like so much.

    I am telling you, this game really sounds like your cup of tea. It has so many of the features you have mentioned about liking in this thread. I know you are waiting for this dream MMO, but until then this realistic MMO might be for you.

    Wrong, there are basically four types of MMOs. ThemePark, ThemePark Hybrid, Sandbox Hybrid, and Sandbox. WoW was basically full ThemePark. GW2 if nothing else was a Sandbox Hybrid, however in my opinion was pretty close to full Sandbox. Wildstar will be a ThemePark Hybrid.

    It honestly isn't that hard to "pigeon hole". Does the game give you free roam or does it give you roller coasters. You dodge the answer, because you know you are wrong so you hide behind "pigeon hole" and "obsession".

    You hate on GW2's PvP, which I find hilarious since it implements the exact system you want. They fool around because it is a Sandbox game. They don't have the roller coasters to get on. You call it skill less, yet they have normalized rewards so with your mentality everything should come down to skill.
  8. Ayora

    Ayora Cupcake-About-Town

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    Before so rudely assuming I was talking to you, you should have to checked to see if I had quoted you, did I? No, I did not Alex.

    It's pink?
  9. PlayerOne

    PlayerOne Cupcake-About-Town

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    No, I mean 2/3. How ridiculous. I say 2/3, you say "that's almost half!". No it is 2/3. Trying to throw negativity at WoW's subscription figures just makes you look desperate.

    Love the game or hate it, it does not matter. That game has exceeded expectation from it's first year and continues to do so.

    It's PvP, however, has not.

    As opposed to what, is what I am asking? WoW has never been a hard game. It was never designed to be a hard game. Hard games do not become that popular because the average player finds them too difficult. WoW has always been a grind. It is still a grind. Wildstar, from what we have seen will be no different. Another grind that will aim to make the players playing it feel like they are achieving something great when in reality they are performing quite simple tasks, many of which a chimpanzee could be trained to do.

    You deliberately gloss over the fact that game is getting old and people will naturally tire of it. How do you know it would performed worse had Blizzard not made those changes? You don't. It could be that those changes are what's keeping the game alive. You will never know. You just assume and run to a forum to spew your opinion like it's fact.

    Nope, they are things you can prance around in showing people how good you are at learning scripts, dodging fire and mashing 4 keys.

    It depends what you want to achieve, doesn't it. If you want to chase WoW like numbers, then sure, try to copy it. You'll fail like every other game that did, but your choice. If you want to make the best game you possibly can and believe that people will enjoy it, then no, do not go with a gear grind.

    There is no trinity. ArenaNet ripped it out. The problem is they forgot to replace it with anything. Hence, everyone just runs around spamming damage.

    .....and I got bored.

    I can only argue with run-of-the-mill fanboy trolls for so long. It's fun for a while, but it just gets boring.

    Feel free to reply, but I won't see it. I look forward to meeting on you a future forumsomewhere. I'll see you, you'll be the guy randomly capitalizing things and saying "I always Knew Wildstar would Flop! Being saying It for Years...."

    Bye. xx
  10. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

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    I was throwing negativity not at WoW, but to your statement that WoW is still close to their peak. When obviously you were wrong. 2/3 is closer to 50% then 100% as far as 100% being the peak.

    I agree with exceeding expectations for the first years, but I don't see how they still are. They are basically losing somewhere between 1 million and 2 million a year in player base for the past couple of years.

    It's PvP is hardly the problem. Since obviously it has been pretty much the same throughout WoW minus early Vanilla. It wasn't like the PvP system took some dramatic change and WoW then hit peak numbers.

    I don't know. I knew a lot of people in TBC who couldn't do a lot of the raid content. Even in Wrath, a lot of people couldn't do the heroic content. Whether of not you found it hard is up to you, but a lot of the player base never saw the content during TBC. Hard games are popular due to difficulty. It challenges the players to work towards hard goals and once you reach that goal due to a lot of effort and skill, then you get a great sense of accomplishment. Then you add on to that accomplishment with rewards, which the player can take pride in and no not your vanity <REDACTED> rewards that nobody cares about.

    I didn't gloss over the age of the game. In fact I mentioned it several times in my posts on this thread. You are the one who has some ridiculous belief that the reason WoW is losing subscriptions is because of their PvP system.

    It isn't hard to assume the problems. One expansion they are over 12 million subscriptions, then they release the next expansion that is more casual friendly with normalized rewards, etc.. and they take a 2 million drop in player base. Then they release another expansion that is even more casual friendly with LFR, etc.. and take another 2 million drop. The drops have been actually quite quick and large.

    You dodged my question, but no surprise there so I'll ask again. What is this magical dream MMO you keep talking about? Give me an example, or is it simply your dream scenario of a next gen MMO?

    Of course developers want WoW's numbers. Another stupid statement. What game developer doesn't want their game to be successful or in WoW's case own the MMO market. So your mentality is that every ThemePark MMO will fail and that every ThemePark MMO is a WoW copy. Surprise surprise another stupid statement. Not even mentioning that WoW took its game design from its predecessors as well. So by your mentality WoW was a copy and should of failed.

    They didn't forget to replace it. They went with a Sandbox feature and made every class the same minus class abilities.

    Not seeing how I am a fanboy. I never said anything about the game being a success or flopping. If anything it is still to soon to tell, but I do have hope in this game. This whole discussion was never about the game being a success or failure so...

    Don't look forward to it to much, since once again this is my first pre-release forum that I have been on. I also don't deny playing games that flopped. I played Swtor and actually thought that the game wasn't going to flop, but it did. I have no problems admitting I am wrong, however you do and it is apparent with your dodging.

    Thank you for getting bored though, now we can stop. You actually kept me entertained though. The whole concept of a Sandbox kid coming on to a pre-release ThemePark MMO and arguing about game design for pages, even after Carbine posts and told you are wrong and should have no hope for your game design. Yet, you keep going for even more pages and start throwing tantrums at everyone was quite amusing.

    I do wish you the best of luck in finding your magical fun MMO that will revolutionize the market.
  11. Another_Alex

    Another_Alex Cupcake

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    This thread is digressing. Can we keep it on topic please ? I like this pink text thing.

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