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I miss Non-Healer Support...

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by Arkavien, Sep 7, 2013.

  1. Lsya

    Lsya Cupcake-About-Town

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    I loved playing non-healer/limited-healer support. The controllers in CoH were my favorite. I felt like there was so much more to do with the class than just hack and slash.
  2. Arkay

    Arkay Cupcake

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    Shoutouts to Bard/Redmage/Corsair in FFXI. Do want. Need moar BOFFZ.
  3. Malorak

    Malorak Cupcake-About-Town

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    I just got a crazy idea while I was pooping.
    Quick, get to the theorycrafting tables! Also: Not for non-MMO knowing players. Also also: Involves the word CC.
    Alot.

    It REALLY depends on the numbers W* has and I can't even say whether this works in PvE and as I intend it to work but:

    May I present: The CC warrior.

    Aight. Interrupt armor. Use X kinds of CC to break through so that 1 CC ability hits.

    All he does is throw out CC and have a spammer and a nonspammer skill. We know how Warriors play and know some abilities like the kick he can use to interrupt.

    There's 2 ways that I see how interrupt armor'll work.

    1) one big timer. You start with your kick and the boss loses 1 IA. You now have Y seconds to spam your CC to make the boss lose all of his X IA and thus have to spam your CC.

    2) A resetting timer. Everytime you CC a boss you get 5 seconds to throw out another CC. Your rotation accordingly would be

    longest CD CC->Damage ability x2->Next longest CD CC->Damage ability x2->next CC->

    and so on. I think both would be interesting.

    Case A would go something like this:

    You'd take the CC spells with the shortest CD with you to just break through and take 1 damage spammer and 1 kinetic cell user (Look up warrior stuff for more info, pretty much holy power from paladins).

    As soon as you'd want to interrupt the boss' "Hyper nova" ability which kills your raid after a certain cast time, you start spamming your CC like a maniac and get the boss' IA down completly (5 man group. In a raid you'd need more) and then can use your standart spam ability plus your cell-use ability to deal mediocre damage.

    Other people could focus on their rotation (People will have one, you can just build your own one which is awesomesauce for min/maxers :D) whilst you have a cool and unique roll to fullfill which helps out your group. For a raid, (also for groups) it really depends on how much IA a boss has, and what kind of system we've got.

    The question would be: If DD's have more utility + damage spells, does this mean more damage? Or do the CC spells do alot of damage anyway? Then this'd be kind of pointless, yes.

    But if the numbers are just "Ok" I'd love to atleast try that in a premade group. I love the idea.


    In PVP, this'll be crazy. This WILL work in PVP. You'd be the most annoying f***er in town and prooobably should go just as tanky as possible + most CC possible.

    Reminds me of vanilla - either you'd play a rogue to kill someone or to stunlock them until death. Pretty hilarious taking out a Thunderfury equipped warrior just because of cc forever.

    ...^This wouldn't happen, breakout system etc.

    If all this fails and has 0 place in the game, it wouldn't really baffle me that much...Then again: I've heard Gaffney talk about just that - being a pure CC guy, handling adds in a raid (Would be your job in the raid, too, if you want to) and generally being as annoying as possible in PVP and taking out healers while other people could just own the DD's etc.

    I just really hope there're some awesome raidbuffs we can throw out so that we can atleast be a little "Supporty" with our builds.

    If all of this "kinda" works, I'd be glad as hell - The dev's weren't just listening, they said the truth - They were speaking about freedom with your spells in some vids and crazy builds...I'm trusting you, Carbine. Make it happen! Make me be able to do ALL the builds!

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Sorry for the minor WoT, but this idea just got over me and now I'm all tingly again for W*. Thanks toilet, shout out to you and the toilet paper that I sacrificed to the poo-poo gods.

    Also: Great mighty poo. <- This is irrelevant.
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  4. Theirin

    Theirin Cupcake

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    This is a reason I am so excited to play this game. Can't wait to see what class diversity will be like with this, i haven't seen a ton of the spells though. My only hope is that many spell set ups will be viable and it won't be tons of cookie cutters running around. =)
  5. FruitPunchHero

    FruitPunchHero Cupcake

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    I don't see the point. Why should I sacrifice great damage and the ability to break IA(Interrupt Armor) through the group for mediocre damage and ability to break IA with one guy? The major problem with a "Pure" CC(crowd control) guy is that he is taking up a valuable spot. Sure it might work in 40 mans where you have so many DPS that it might not make a difference, but in the smaller instances he doesn't bring enough to the table to justify removing damage/healer/tank. Every class will have interrupts, probably even multiple. Combine this with the fact that you can change your LAS(Limited Action Set) and you just don't need a "Pure" CC guy in smaller instances.

    As far as PVP, I think it would detract from the fun. As that CC guy you will be remembered and focused just because of how obnoxious you are. People don't like being CCed. It is not fun. Chain CC makes people not want to PVP. Even with the breakout system you could still be stuck for a very long time. Imagine 3 CC guys just holding you in place just for giggles. Not fun. Of course these wouldn't be optimal compositions and could still be beaten by solid players. The entire time would be like smashing your face into a wall until it slowly crumbles away.

    Now if this CC guy was more buff centered and brought more to the table than just CC, I could begin to see some value giving up a spot for him. But at that point he isn't a CC guy he becomes a buffer.

    This is not to say I don't like your idea. I don't think it would be viable outside of 40 mans is all. Keep innovating. It drives progression.
  6. Malorak

    Malorak Cupcake-About-Town

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    Guys, do me a favor and don't full quote. Makes this thread EVEN bigger x_X

    @
    ^c wut I did there? Nevermind.

    As I said - You still bring in SOME damage - If an Esper for example could maintain 6 dots and have 2 spells for damage rotation, he'd have no room for other spells. Stuff like this could make a CC-Warrior really shine.

    Who knows, maybe 2 spells are more than enough to make up for a decent/good amount of damage? Then you can - instead of additional utility - just bring a ton of CC.
    All of this is based off of the assumption that you only need 2 keys for ok damage. Which I don't suppose, but hey, Elemental shamans do it. :I

    You're right. In a normal group/raid environment, this'd be pointless - just have everyone bring one stun with them.

    To the PVP point you brought up: Being annoying but effective...Is still effective. 99% of the people in WoW look up guides to max out their DPS and just go into the arena throwing out their stuff and after that panicking with a pure DPS combination.

    Also I never really talked about having multiple CC-Warriors in one group - 1 per 10 people would be enough. Just to stunlock the healer as well as possible/take out annoying enemies/defend in - for example - capture the flag.
  7. FruitPunchHero

    FruitPunchHero Cupcake

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    If someone justified that those two extra spells surpassed another true DPS character than I would be all for it. Until it can be done I will remain skeptical. Again I don't think it is a bad idea just not a viable one.

    In PVP there would have to be a trade off. If the CC warrior wants to go full CC he can't be effective at killing people as well. That would just be broken if he could do both. Which is why I think solid players with good composition would beat CC teams every time. Those CC warriors would have to give up health and damage potential for that crazy CC.

    Can you elaborate on your statement about the arena? I don't see how it pertains to the point I think you are trying to make.

    I know you never brought up multiple CC guys in one group. I did though. I was creating a potential situation for the sake of making a point. I think it was a good example because when the potential to be annoying is there people will try to abuse it. That is just how we are. Those few instances where some guys try to be funny and run full CC teams and lock out guys just for fun would cause huge vocal outcries.
  8. Malorak

    Malorak Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well, the point IS that he would suck at doing damage. DPS would still out-DPS the other people, but picking a CC spell would severely hurt your utility/DPS. So that'd make it a pick your poison.

    In WoW people who just want some PVP gear/Achievenemts just go for Full DPS, look at a guide to know how to burst the most damage in short time and then just go for 3v3 with 3 damage dealers. Usually the initial burst is enough to kill 1 person, preferably the healer, leaving them open to just either avoid damage as best as possible or just try to utilize the rest of the burst for another person and then outmanning the enemy.

    Preeeetty lame strat which works with any kind of gear, really. Especially PVE gear, but that's another story.

    Also: If a boss had more than 40 interrupt armor, let's say he has 80, either you have EVERYONE bring 2 cc spells and one person a 3rd one or you have some CC guys.

    And I know that people love being annoying. That's why Teemo in League of Legends hasn't been patched out I guess.

    But you WILL have these people and pure CC people WILL be a thing. You can mix'n'match all kinds of spells, so this will be a thing - I was just trying to discuss the viability...Which in a PVP situation is more likely than in a PVE one.

    In the end it'll probably come down to every DD and tank having 1-2 cc's in PVE and in PVP...Well, it's PVP. Everything goes.
  9. Drasas

    Drasas Well-Known Cupcake

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    I'd gladly settle for a proper utility DPS like the Elemental Shaman was in Burning Crusade. Not going to win on the damage meters but my buffs for my group plus my damage equaled out to more than another pure DPS would have brought in my place. My casters in the group could shed 3% hit because of my totem alone. I really miss that role. Warcraft took the GIVE ALL THE BUFFS route and the gameplay is poorer for it.
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  10. FruitPunchHero

    FruitPunchHero Cupcake

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    I don't know what you just said. Who are the other people? Why are the DPS out DPSing them? How does picking CC hurt your utility?

    Ok. How does this pertain to WildStar? We are talking about the viability of CC warriors in WildStar. Not the state of all CC heavy comps in WoW. I know you are just explaining your last statement because I asked you too. I asked in the hope you would connect it to our discussion in a way that is relevant. If you thought I was implying that 3 burst dps comps should be run then you were mistaken. I have been out of WoW for years and have no idea of the current arena metagame or matchups. I really couldn't tell you the best composition for groups or even what a good comp needs to succeed.
    Like I said. The only place I see CC focused guys being viable is 40 mans.
    I hope it is a thing. Even if I don't think it is viable I want it to be in the game. The more options the better. Again we were discussing the viability of CC focused characters. I don't think they are outside of 40 mans. I don't even think they will be viable in PVP because good players will know how to deal with it. Of course they would be great for stomping pubs but that goes along the same line as why Tryndamere in League of Legends will always stomp unorganized teams.
  11. Malorak

    Malorak Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well, you have limited Actions.

    Meaning if you have - let's say - 5 damage abilities, you'd have, what, 3 ability slots left?

    I think it was 8 abilities in the LMA. Correct me if I'm wrong though.


    Meaning that you either have to give up an ability for damage, utility or some other CC ability if you want something else in your current kit - and that's what I meant.
    If you could have 8 abilites which would each enhance your DPS by ALOT, then picking all 8 of them seems like a neat idea.

    ..But if your raid needs X interrupt armor (Or you're gonna PVP) you'll need atleast SOME CC. And to accomodate that, you could have some people take more - or truckloads - of CC with them. I was overexaggerating, yeah, you could also go for 3-5 cc spells and probably still do alot of damage.

    But as I said - it all dpeends on whether more DPS abilities equals more damage (Lots of big CD's would say yes, dots too.) or you would just take abilities you don't really use THAT often, so you can just take that stun or that taunt with you, no Biggie.

    Let's just end that conversation here and let's get to your point - it will probably not be viable outside of 40 men raids, if it is viable at all anyway.

    Have a good day!
  12. FruitPunchHero

    FruitPunchHero Cupcake

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    I don't want to end this conversation! This is good! This is discussion! You are not wrong. Please don't feel like I am attacking you or your idea. Lets dig into this. Are CC focused characters to a specific class? Or is it something you want every class to be able to do?

    Now 8 skills is a lot to choose from. When I spoke of taking pure damage over pure utility I was speaking from the idea that because there are so many skills available that it wont be viable to take 8 damage spells (this is entirely my fault for not explaining further). Not all 8 skills can be used for damage together for maximum damage. Going off of this idea, those extra slots can be used for whatever the instance requires. When everyone in the instance has that option to pick some utility why should I take someone who focuses on cc instead of going with the norm of focus damage and tack on utility. Lets say to focus on something we use your numbers pick 5 damage/cc and 3 of the other.

    I am about to go to sleep btw its past midnight here :p
  13. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    And those path abilities can be all kind of spells/abilities (buffs/heals/dmg/summen etc.)
  14. D3athcr33ps

    D3athcr33ps Cupcake

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    Here's my 2 cents. Having a boss where everyone must use their CC to stop a cast is interesting game mechanics. Everyone has to stop what they are doing and CC. If you have one guy that is just the CCer he is going to just get tunnel vision and the DPS is going to get tunnel vision because they don't have to stop. This does not change up the game play in any fun way. It's like having one guy assigned to just debuff the entire raid. It's a boring job using one button. Now having a multi-tool class is fun. Someone that doesn't have high DPS, but can offheal or a DPS that can pick up adds is cool. I saw the example someone used "BC shaman" and that is how I view GREAT support classes.

    In PvP that is another story. People could play prot warriors and sacrifice a huge damage loss for the ability to survive, get more mobility, and be able to do a ton of stuns and CC. People curse at their computers, but this is interesting gameplay. You must communicate with your team to score a kill because they are down a DPS. In Smite I love playing Ymir not because he gets a ton of KBs, but because I can set up awesome combos with teammates. I lay down the stun, they pop their stuff, I wall them= 4 dead. A lot of MoBa games have classes that literally just follow around one character and assist them with grips, slows, walls, stuns, buffs, etc. The problem with making these character class is that they rely on group play and suck at solo. It's also hard to justify a support class in PVE.
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  15. Malorak

    Malorak Cupcake-About-Town

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    AFAIK Path abilities go on the hotbar, too. You just have 1 path ability available at any time, that's what I've seen from some videos.
  16. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Sorry, I did thought the number (you said 8) was a little low so I thought you missed the paths.

    But it's like this:
    9 LAS + innate (and you can put either 1 or 2 path abilities of the 3 in your LAS at any time)

    The 1-2 isn't sure at all...some say 1 some say 1-2 so....
  17. FruitPunchHero

    FruitPunchHero Cupcake

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    Can you source the innate and path skills? I want to read up on them.

    Do you have to take a path skill and innate?
  18. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    To put path skills in your LAS-bar is up to you!
    Your innate is always on it! (it's an extra spot and unlike the other abilities it doesn't go on 1 t/m 9 shortkey, but instead goes to the R or another one) (ofcourse you can change that).

    The innate is pretty much only an ''active buff'' for some time. Don't see it as something too great.

    As for the source, it is SUPER OLD news about innates, we kinda passed that station a long time ago. So no I don't got a source this moment, but just check some video's mayby they'll scroll over it (i'm sure they do in 1 of them).
    And the exact numbers are still under NDA (I think).
  19. FruitPunchHero

    FruitPunchHero Cupcake

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    Ok thanks. Innates remind me of Ultimates from MOBA style games. I wonder if these path skills will be relevant or more of just quirky things. I remember a thread asking about it a while back.
  20. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    No they aren't...see them more as a ''oh <REDACTED> I need a bit more X ability resource'' lukely I have my innate to give me just that small amount! (please don't see them as something extremely big like ulti's)
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