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Instead of Spamming F for breaking out of stuns

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by azmundai, Aug 21, 2013.

  1. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    I didn't miss any point, you spoke about not having the skill in dungeons and raids, which is what I was replying to. Console gamers have no issues at all with all the button combos in 90% of the games for that market. They break out control situations, they button mash and do all sorts of combos to defeat bad guys, having 1 CC that requires an F key will be the least of your problems in the dungeons and raids.

    If you are suggesting that there is constant button mashing for the entire leveling experience, to the extent that your muscles can't take it, then I can only guess you are purposely exaggerating.
  2. Tiberius

    Tiberius Cupcake-About-Town

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    No, I guess you just misunderstood what I was saying. If it were "Press X to get out of CC" it would be one thing, and very much to your point, but that is not SPAMMING. Spamming is "Press X 25 times with 2 seconds to get out of CC." In this case, even if someone knows exactly what to do in a raid (or just/more importantly low level dungeon) and does accordingly some people just are physically unable to do so fast enough.

    It's important here to recognize that even if you are completely competent in that regard, not every human is built the same. Some people just have naturally low response times. Studies have shown that on average nervous impulses from the brain to the body take about 3 seconds to register. Let's say there's a boss that stuns everyone and then gives them exactly 5 seconds to break stun and dodge away before hitting that spot for massive damage. This stuff happens all the time in MMOs. 99% of competent raiders will know to break CC and dodge, but ~50% of that same group will die if they are required to button mash first, because *their bodies simply cannot fire input that fast*. Button mashing QTE has ruined so many games for people simply because they cannot fire that fast.

    Not at all. This goes back to the developer variable of how often you are CCed and how much we have to spam to break each of those CCs. A normal play session of MMOs for me is ~5ish hours. If once every few enemies there is a chance that I get CCed and have to spam a bunch to break it my hand will simply get tired. It may not wipe me out, but each one after hat is more likely to make me say maybe I'll 'take a break' and do something else.

    Most importantly, EVEN IF I CAN DO IT, I WON'T WANT TO. Making a mechanic that is physically allowed does not make it fun. Making a mechanic physically tolerable does not mean it is mentally tolerable. The only reason spamming to break stun sounds great to people is because until this time no one has been able to break stuns at all. If you're going to add a breaker, do it right and make it engaging. The game is still a ways out and I wouldn't be surprised for them to go through several more iterations of everything. "Spam F" CC won't break the game for me personally (unless there was an entire stun CC dungeon/raid) but it would make me describe WildStar as "The game that sounds great, except for the friggin stupid mindless spam thing."

    Also as a side note, please don't be an elitist gamer who thinks anyone who can't even theoretically keep up with you is automatically a console n00b that should be purged from existence.
  3. ebakrans

    ebakrans Cupcake

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    I guess I don't really mind the F button spam, its not like your character is going to be constantly stunned while moving about in the world and the only way to move is by mashing F. It probably happens fairly infrequently so the few times you get hit with a stun you push F a few times and break out. Without playing though I have a hard time trying to decide if pressing F really is all that bad.

    The only thing I could think of that might be more fun would be when you get stunned a ring shows up on your screen with the WASD every 90 degrees and a blue circle in the center. Then inside is a red dot that wobbles around your goal is to try and land the red dot in the blue circle by using your WASD keys to move the red dot towards the blue inner circle. The red dot kind of representing your balance as you stagger around and doesn't just sit still. On top of that the blue dot in the center starts out the same size as the red dot so it would be really hard to just land it in there at the start (and impossible to macro) but as time goes on the blue dot gets bigger and bigger to the point that when the stun duration is up the blue circle takes up the whole ring and by default you break out.
  4. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    and they have said that "spamming" does you no good, its a figure of speech, you pressing 25 times will be no better than the person pressing 5 times.

    how do console gamers manage to do this then, why are there so many popular ones that do it? The stats that you are presenting here are just unrealistic.

    it wont be the same exact cc over and over...there is only 1 cc that requires the F key, you're trying to say that you would be getting the same cc for your entire session, maybe don't farm the same mob over and over? and Elitist has nothing to do with the reality that players not being able to hit F in a dungeon or raid will mean that they won't be finishing said dungeon or raid even if they removed this function.
  5. Xecks

    Xecks Cupcake-About-Town

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    isnt it balanced that you can only imput the f key only so fast ?
    mostly cause people will make macros that go as fast as they can and carbine wanted to make it so everyone would be on equal footing macro or not.
  6. azmundai

    azmundai Well-Known Cupcake

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    I understand the concern, but I don't understand how being stunned for 3 seconds with no way to get out is better than being stunned for 1.5s because you pressed a couple of buttons.
  7. Gronky

    Gronky Cupcake-About-Town

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    It takes your mind out of doing nothing I suppose. I believe they may find some better way to occupy that time for us. Mu favourite is quick pac-man game :)
  8. Praxis

    Praxis New Cupcake

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    Then might as well reduce PvP stun duration to 1.5sec
  9. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    Dude, the use of one expletive to emphasize a statement does not make for flying of the handle. Hells you got personnel and called me an asshat, which goes way beyond using one expletive in a statement; in the flying off the handle formula.
    Personally I don’t give an expletive what you think about me. You are not just giving an opinion of a game mechanic in a game you have no experience with; you are suggesting a change to a game mechanic in a game you have no experience with.

    As for the Devs are listening; I just hope that the Devs give as much credence to armchair quarterbacks as I do.
  10. CriSPeH

    CriSPeH Cupcake-About-Town

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    The key spamming doesn't bother be one bit.
    But if we are just throwing out ideas I would rather a timed click or keypress.
    Something like a little dial that spins and you have to click/press when it points straight up, the more powerful the stuns the faster the dial.
  11. azmundai

    azmundai Well-Known Cupcake

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    you could use zero expletives. you are still complaining about something the devs encourage and which is pretty much the reason forums like this exist. to talk about what we do know about the game. i called you an asshat because you come off like all of the other asshats on forums like this who feel it's their need to take a dump on anything they dont 100% agree with.

    and just because "armchair quarterback" isn't defined as getting personal, that's full well how you meant it. if you don't want people getting personal. try not casting the first stone.

    there's was even a dev in this thread
    they like feedback. sorry you don't.
  12. azmundai

    azmundai Well-Known Cupcake

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    that makes sense if it's just spamming a button but if there is some thought to it, then it makes the stun anywhere from 3 to 1.5 seconds .. or something like that.

    i see your point tho. it wouldnt bother me if the stun breakout went away either. but if it doesn't, I just think it should be more than just spamming 1 button.
  13. Yakzan

    Yakzan "That" Cupcake

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    <Mod Monocle> Please try to tone down the hostility by a few notches. </Mod Monocle>
  14. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    the thought that came to my mind with your suggestion, was that I think the end result would be pretty much the same time because I think people would "settle" for just pressing the first 2 in the combo and shaving off 1 second or w/e...and view it as just an automatic time reduction.
    "oh I'm stunned, well here....now it's 1 second less"

    dunno, that's just what I was thinking on it.
  15. GoatSlayrr

    GoatSlayrr Well-Known Cupcake

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    The fact that people are already talking about macroing their programmable keyboards and that the devs have already had to figure out how to slow people down says to me that the F spamming is a really bad design idea. I do like the idea of CC break outs in general, but the spam out is really unappealing to me. As is the idea of a quicktime event to get out. I hate them in console games, and I imagine I'll like them even less if I have to mash them into my keyboard.

    I really do hope the devs come up with something better and frankly more compelling than button mashing or keyboard DDR. Make me thing. Make me make a choice. Don't make me test my digital dexterity.
    Bnol likes this.
  16. Jeremy Gaffney

    Jeremy Gaffney Carbine Studios

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    We read here too :)
  17. Jeremy Gaffney

    Jeremy Gaffney Carbine Studios

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    Couple thoughts from reading through this:

    Personally I (and Chris, the lead combat designer) both agree that spamming "F" is actually the weak one of the bunch in the vid. Part is the main reason mentioned here (macroability). OTOH, there's something to be said for it in actual gameplay because, despite the other arguments against ("why hit keys? Just let me out early instead") it actually feels right in a strange way. Like you're struggling against something that then lets you out. And feel does matter.

    And the minmaxxer in you might know that if you're "good" at the mini game (through macro hardware or clickin' skill) it is trivial, but at a more base level you actually do feel like you have more control over your fate by solving the mini-puzzle.

    However, here's another downside of the F-spam: it doesn't combo as nicely as the other CCs. For instance, if you disarm someone and then disorient them, the disarm is more effective, but through skill you might still rapidly get your weapon back. Tether and disarm is a great combo that isn't insta-win: you don't have a weapon, so damaging the anchor is harder, and the tether might keep your weapon out of range. But disarm might randomly drop your sword within tether range so it might not matter and you rapidly break out...so a nontrivial combo, often effective, but still with options.

    But F-spam doesn't naturally combo well in the same fashion. It's one of the first ones we did, and it "feels" pretty good, so we have it in there. It's IMO fairly likely to shift to something else through iteration (though that's really up to the combat guys and beta feedback).

    Some alternatives:

    a) something we've knocked around for mez could work: your soul gets "knocked back" out of your body and you have to return to your body to get control - might feel good, but does create some special case code; disorient probably affects your spirit, but direct damage goes to your body instead, causing some neat combos and meaning you can't be dodging etc. until you're back in your body, which is gonna be Trouble. Kinda a parallel to disarm.

    b) tie it in more with a root type effect - put your feet in a boulder which needs damage to break through it, otherwise you can't move. IMO I like root effects more than stun/mez because it makes the environment usage matter - run an enemy around a corner and root them and you remove them from combat but with more interesting gameplay options than just "wait for the effect to end"

    c) some of the other concepts mentioned in the thread - less macroable versions of what's in there. Does suffer from the lack of interactability with the other effects and might feel like "type in your ATM pin code" to break out though (the issue with combo attacks back in the Age of Conan era IMO, not to diss that game as I enjoyed it).

    And feel's important on these, it makes a big difference when it feels right (kinda why F-spam has survived through a few iterations).

    Anyways treat none of this as gospel as the combat guys have control over the direction of all this and I trust 'em, but just thoughts on reading the options mentioned here.
    Ianpact, Rek, Eastwood and 7 others like this.
  18. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    I personally feel the "fun" word gets tossed around a bit much, sort of like overusing the latest buzzword. I think that in reality, in the heat of battle, any of these break out functions will become second nature, and when the battle ends the fun will be the entire fight. I think having 1 breakout among many others, that is a press button breakout, is a pretty good overall ratio, and wouldn't put too much time over-thinking something that's likely going to be an afterthought of battle in the first place.

    Fishing comes to mind with this, I always considered fishing a relaxing activity and that was all it needed to be in order to work for me. It doesn't need to be morphed into something else just to be considered "fun", obviously different activities are going to interest different people and that should be ok.
  19. aiuradun

    aiuradun Cupcake-About-Town

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    My thoughts, i feel like the instant stun just feels powerful like the mountain king in wc3 “Storm bolt” the impact of a direct powerful hit is truly empowering to me as a player.
    And I would agree that the it doesn’t have much “play” in it as root and others but it just feels good/awesome (this is just my personal opinion)

    Of the 3 ideas I like a) the best.

    If you want to keep the f key pressing I would probably make it like a pendulum with red/yellow/green area randomly generated swinging and pressing it while in green gets you up faster, rather than a clean spam or something like that to make it harder to macro and gives something to “master”, this could probably be done even better but just my quick thought


    /Cheers
    Rek likes this.
  20. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    I like the idea of CC having it's own mini meta game that with the right combination can seriously hamper an opposing player or group of players. Better than my character stood there swaying for 1,2,3 seconds at a time whilst I can do nothing.

    I do have a question though, would this system combined with LAS allow for viable "controller" builds, say for a roaming PvP group with one person able to chain their CC to devastating effect whilst other members of the group spec for damage? Or perhaps specialising 1-4 players in raids for pure interrupt armour smashing, allowing for raid group min-maxing?

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