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Instead of Spamming F for breaking out of stuns

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by azmundai, Aug 21, 2013.

  1. Kleev

    Kleev Cupcake-About-Town

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    Just get rid of this mechanic. I think you're trying to hard to add something to gameplay that isn't needed or enjoyable. It would easily take me less than one hour of battlegrounds to get over the "fun" factor of this. There's also no reason less skilled players should suffer MORE from CC than good players.

    If this makes it out of beta I will be doing some major facepalming. I'm seriously amazed this ever made it into the game.
  2. Xo1o

    Xo1o Cupcake

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    It's hard to come up with something interactive when stun is per definition about not being able to act. All the other CCs do not completely prohibit action, which is why it's easier to make them combo.
    If you go for the "out of body experience" stun, you will have two CC effects in the game that completely change the vision of players (Blind and Stun), so I'm not sure that's cool. This mechanic also sounds hard to make bug- and annoyance-free. If you go for the "destructible root" stun, then issues with targeting those quickly would likely occur (as is the case in GW2 that has similar roots mechanics on some skills) and it wouldn't really be a stun anymore, or am I misunderstanding something?

    So, what to do?
    I tried hard to come up with some sort of minigame to do while stunned, like adjusting a balance meter that represents you gaining control back over your actions, but... I dumped all ideas when thinking about if I'd actually want to do this in the middle of a fight. I'm also not sure if it's such a bad idea to have one CC effect you cannot get out of. Stun would be the perfect candidate. Stun is also usually the shortest lasting CC effect out of the bunch, and the most crucial for the stunner to rely on, from a timing PoV.
    The reason why players fear stun is stun-locking, aka an extended loss of control, which most of the MMO crowd experienced in WoW against Rogues, I assume. The one class that never had a problem with being stun-locked to death were Mages, however, who had Blink and Ice Block. So, if you gave certain (movement) abilities a stun-break effect but left the stun duration itself unchangeable, wouldn't that be a good solution?
  3. azmundai

    azmundai Well-Known Cupcake

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    Perhaps stun can be changed to dazed. Dazed to me at least, implies that you are partially in control. Perhaps with daze your GCD is increased slightly and your hit rating is reduced slightly (or something to that effect depending on how your system handles things like that). So you still have full control, but your motor skills are weakened. Maybe if you dodge when dazed it happens in slow motion :) .. or more likely it only covers 1/2 the distance or something.

    While I am not a big fan of the downed system, something like that might be interesting. Maybe there are 3-4 buttons that allow you to do certain things while stunned. For example, defend, and take less damage. Maybe you can build up an immunity to a future stun (instead of decreasing current stun time) with another button. Can't think of anything else to go with that.

    What about dispells? Will other party members be able to cleanse these states at all? I realize a lot of stuns especially, cannot be cleaned, but I've always thought that allowing more cleanses of stuns would help with that out of control feeling. On the other hand, with LAS .. i'm not sure many people would be running around with a cleanse spell, though I guess that depends on how useful it is.

    I actually kind of agree with that. Though I think if this becomes the case, stuns needs to have a long cd at the very least, and the longer cd / one time re-app things (from other games) need to go away. It's awesome from a rogue / smuggler's perspective .. it's pretty lame from any other perspective. Not knowing how the stalker works though, for example, stun probably still needs to remain a viable opener, but hopefully it's not A. game over for the other player and B. the stalker is still likely to win the battle, but he has to actually fight.

    In Swtor the smuggler got gutted to an extent, at least in terms of 1v1 .. which I don't think should matter, but even in groups. In the beginning we could take out healers, tanks .. anyone. After the nerfs our job was basically to tie up the healer and make his life hell. On a good team they were still awesome though, which is really what it's all about.
  4. Tiberius

    Tiberius Cupcake-About-Town

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    That's actually an interesting way of looking at it. If the stun is short enough then it is going to be used more as an interrupt, but then that's the catch: it then has to be short.

    The difficult part with stuns is that, like that dumb rogue we all hate, they are rarely used by themselves, but combo'ed with big hitters or even stun extenders. If a stun was shorter it would prevent many cases where PvP enemies or a raid boss could chain a stun in front of a power attack. If a stun is too long it gets infuriating, but if it's too short then why bother even trying to break out?

    This could actually create a really interesting dynamic for high end content. We know that dodge is limited by dodge points, and currently the max is 2 points. When they aren't maxed you get one roughly every 5 seconds. In PvP/Raids dodging is going to be so incredibly important, so if it's tied to stun breakage then you end up teasing your opponent with a few power shots in order to get him to use his dodge at the wrong moment, giving you a clear opportunity to stun and get critical hits in while his dodge refills. It would also reward raiders for not screwing up fight mechanics. If we have a attack-stun-power-attack combo, those who can anticipate the first hit and be out of the way will easily be able to break CC and avoid the big hit, while those that waste their dodge last minute trying to avoid hit 1 are much more likely to get smashed in the face by the power attack because their dodge is all used up.

    Players would have direct control over how effective CC breaking was, and it would combo better with other CC effects. Losing some dodge to break stun would mean less maneuverability when racing for their disarmed weapon and might dodge in a bad direction with confuse or blind. Dodging would have less impact with tether, but being unable to damage the tether for a few seconds would be enough combo for me.

    I do not envy the devs trying to sort this out :'(
  5. Borz

    Borz Cupcake-About-Town

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    Wrong question. This is not 'other MMO' where you have stun break on long CD. With current form of stun in WS, there is absolutely no reason not to break out, maybe aside from being lazy.
    Question with short stuns is "why bother using them", assuming your regular 'pure' stun. And it changes significantly when stuns are added on top of some other skills, generally leading to "make your action, your opponent skips his turn".

    Except that limited action set is limited. By adding even more functionality to movement skills either their primary effect has to be reduced, or their overall value significantly outgtrows average. On the other hand, value of stun/knockdown/disorient varies dpending on wether your enemy has movement skill on his bar or not. This leads to specific rock-paper-scissors before each fight, picking best CC depending on enemy ability to break it. In my opinion, that wouldn't be fun.

    Also, this pretty much assumes everyone has some movement ability similar to dodge - moving player certain distance in specific direction, doing pretty much same thing as dodge. Leap/charge, teleport place switch or similar skills based around enemy don't help at all, if class does not have viable movement ability it has to be given one, or breaking stuns can never be used as balanced mechanic.



    Regarding "F spam" itself - so far it seems fine. It's simple reaction mechanism. Not complicated that you have to stand back for a second and think what to do. Also, since it's spam of single button with single purpose, stun suddenly ending does not mess up anything. With random sequence of w/s/a/d you might find yourself suddenly performing movement action you did not intend. Yes, it does not require high skill. Yes, it's not as 'good' as other CC 'breakouts'. But it works. And it fits to 'stun theme'.

    Regarding combos with other CC, it's bit of a problem. Disarm is CC on offensive ability that requires movement to break. Tether is CC on movement that requires offense to break. Both Blind and Disorient are CC on perception/orientation, so by extension movement and offense(trough aiming), and can't be broken. Instead, can be mitigated by player perceptioon.
    While Stun, is CC on ability to act. Movement and offense don't even enter that, player simply can't do <REDACTED>. Stun blocks player from doing anything that would make it possible to break it trough some kind of action, and by extension, blocks all other CC from affecting player ability to break Stun. Meaning - simple stun probably can't neatly combo with other CC. So choice is either to leave it as it, with 'f spam' as way to break, or remove stun entirely, possibly replacing it by effect similar, but fundamentally different. Identify primary purpose stun serves currently in WS, and find way to do so by restricting some 'advanced' gameplay activity, meaning more advanced than basic 'ability to to things'. By what? I don't know, no idea what is primary purpose of stuns in WS. And I'm not entirely convinced that ides of 'f spam' is so bad that it deserves scrapping all stuns.
  6. CriSPeH

    CriSPeH Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think this sounds awesome.
    It is simple, unique and something I don't think I have really seen before.
    It is just quickly moving forward back into your body which puts it on the same level as rolling out of a knockdown.
    When combo'd with disorient it will create a great cohesion between the two CC's.

    My only suggestion would be to have the direction your soul gets knocked to either be random or better yet tied to the skill used. So if the stun is an uppercut, it gets knocked straight back, if it is a big side swipe then it gets...well knocked out sideways. This would add the small layer of reorienting yourself before hoping back in.

    Also it would hilarious if your soul was "nekid" (just stripped of armor sorta like in Super Ghouls & Ghosts)
  7. GoatSlayrr

    GoatSlayrr Well-Known Cupcake

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    The roots you have to attack to break, and mez that takes you out of your body sound so much better than the spamming or finger DDR ideas. I can totally see how the coding for the mez could be a pain, and wouldn't be heart broken if it didn't come to pass, but the root shouldn't be any harder to do than the tethers, and I would love to see.
  8. Tiberius

    Tiberius Cupcake-About-Town

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    Gamescom footage from WildStar Wednesday gives us our first look at actual stun breakout in Stormtalon Lair. The players manage to break out within a few seconds. I think not having actual data to look at after the DevSpeak was causing most of the alarm. F spam may not be as interesting as something else, but if breakout time is consistently that fast I don't see it being a problem, so long as it's not overused by too many creatures.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QG_82r0RzfI#t=555
  9. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    I was about to say the same thing. I dont think there is a need for "break out of" system at all.
    I think the cc system works fine as it is in MMOS.

    I rather know ill break out of the stun/daze in 3 seconds, rather then relying to move my fingers fast in some mingame.
    At that point i stop watching what the enemy is doing and moving, and focus my eyes on some bar that shows some letters. That doesnt really sound like a good system to have in PvP where you have to anticipate your enemies moves.

    And like i said in before, some classes rely heavily on CC in PvP.
    Not that i think anyone should be able to stunlock someone to death, but some clases need it to get distance from targets, like the nuker, that will die quickly in melee.
    Or the assassinclass, that relies on CC to keep the enemy close and disabling them from fighting. Everyone knows assassins will die extremly fast once the other player starts fighting him back.

    Those 2 classes relies heavily on cc (dont know how they work in wildstar but they work the same in all mmorpgs) and will be really hurt if the other player can just break out of everything they do.

    Its like when Aion added "CC counters" rendering assassins totaly useless. As soon as the assassin used any cc, the enemy could just counter break free and hit back.
  10. Zephiris

    Zephiris New Cupcake

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    This is actually a pretty cool idea. I wish I could test this out before saying its cool though. But right now reading that I think its a very interesting idea regarding CC and I cant recall this ever done before in other MMOs so its new and fresh at the same time.
  11. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    This isn't OTHER MMOS or a feature tacked on after the fact, so your conclusions really are quite unfounded.

    More skilled players will break out earlier, a few ms earlier.
    I am not sure how this is bad though, or really even different.
  12. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    So you think the classes will work totally different? okidoki
  13. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    It is pretty dumb to assume that they will balance a class around constant CC, when the game isn't even balanced yet.

    Classes balanced around CC are always OP as hell anyways.
    Throughout the history of WoW the rogue and mage have more or less dominated PvP in one fashion or another. They are never even mid tier, always top.
  14. HappinessFactory

    HappinessFactory Cupcake

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    The only reason why i'm against the idea of F-spam is that the F button macro will be a requirement in pvp. Although if there were some way to stop the ability to create the breakout button macro then I would be fine with it.

    TBH though, I don't find that stuns need the break-out gameplay. Stuns are frustrating because they stun you and you take tons of damage because you can't use abilities to mitigate that damage or return any. I don't think any sort of break out gameplay will assuage that frustration.

    However, losing control of your character for any good length of time is a sign of poor game health at least imo. That's why I believe a Diminishing Returns algorithm would be the best alternative. Stuns do what stuns do but too many stuns in a row will make the next stun meaningless. Simple, easy to balance, and no workarounds.
  15. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    Everything else is breakout. It makes no sense to leave stuns as is.

    Also, macros won't be necessary. They can easily add in a minimum delay between recognized key presses.
  16. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    Agree. Hardlock and snares etc should be on different DR though
  17. HappinessFactory

    HappinessFactory Cupcake

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    Making breakout gameplay for stuns simply because everything else has break out gameplay seems a tad silly to me. As for the minimum delay solution, I'm hopeful that will work but at the same time it still feels like something that would be easy to manipulate with an addon or something.

    Agreed
  18. Crybone

    Crybone Cupcake-About-Town

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    I haven't been around here for a while (lot to do in the summer). Was about to post this suggestion myself, oh well, guess I wasn't the only one to think of this :)

    My sketch:

    StunBreak_WS_Sug_BD.jpg
    azmundai likes this.
  19. Nevir

    Nevir New Cupcake

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    Just chiming in that I really like this alternative!

    It'd be pretty obvious what's going on, and how to break out. Players are good at moving.

    Also, there'd be a lot of emergent strategy, especially if the attacker can control the direction that your spirit gets knocked back (let's assume that it's directly away from the attacker):
    • An attacker could mez from behind, which would knock you forward (forcing you to have to 180 to get back quickly).
    • If you can't be knocked off a cliff (aka no spirit flight?), the attacker would need to try to knock your spirit away from the cliff; otherwise it's faster to get back.
    • Related to above; you could lessen the effect of mez by having your back against a wall or other obstacle.
    • And I'm sure a bunch of other tactics
  20. azmundai

    azmundai Well-Known Cupcake

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    pretty cool :)

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