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Is LFD on its way out?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by John, May 19, 2013.

  1. Nub

    Nub Cupcake

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    Not even close to the truth. If content is too hard, sending in a group of random people will be a painful experience. Try a Challenge Mode in WoW using a random group and let me know how that goes.

    People seem to be blinded by nostalgia, it's hilarious to see such denial coming from folks that claim they are experienced MMO players.

    I hope that's not a mindset that's shared by developers. There's a reason why World of Warcraft changed over the years, and it wasn't just to make more money. WoW today is a significantly better game in nearly every way than WoW from years ago.
    Eliat_kuni and Rumze like this.
  2. Roland Daemon

    Roland Daemon Cupcake-About-Town

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    As we advance in technology and our ability to actually break the ice and meet people ourselves without the aid of something else decreases, The looking-for-dungeon tool will become an ever increasing feature that will be added in every game that has a multiplayer aspect.

    Counter-strike:GO has a matchmaking.
    TF2 has matchmaking
    LoL
    Dota
    Hon
    Smite
    Tribes: Ascend
    Borderlands 2
    WoW
    Rift
    Neverwinter
    Tera

    This list could go on for a long ass time. The thing is, that it's easy to get enough people in the world to do something at any given time, the problem is that there is a lack of knowledge those people are looking for that particular objective.

    This lack of knowledge or even restriction can come from various circumstances: Different servers, Same roles in which there is only a limited number allowed and other minor things such as lag and time zones as well.

    While I personally don't like the tool, I understand the convenience of knowing I can just press a few buttons and when the game has found the right setup for me with people who want to do specific group content. It's easy, it's mostly simple and it lets me do other things while I wait, in-game or out.

    While most people here have expressed their distaste for such a system, I know not one of you will permanently never use it. It's in-game... its there and you will use it.

    Unless you're a social savant and can actually pull things off like the old days... but I don't envy you sitting in town for hours waiting to do low level content within 6 months of release.

    LFD is here to stay and it'll only get better, honestly. If you want things to change, change yourself in how to meet other people and actually go out and MEET them. Don't just treat them as random's to get what you want.. make it an adventure. have fun!

    It is just a game, afterall.
  3. kur1

    kur1 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Is everyone seeking 'long-term relationships' when they log in? Is it right to develop systems that primarily cater to this when they stated 65% of MMO players typically engage in content solo?

    Where WoW failed with LFG was devaluing the work of people who wanted to form parties server-side. Offering a slight reward bonus for doing things 'the slow way' (an extra reward chest at the end, 10-20 more VP per run, a title, etc.) would have accomplished keeping server communities grouping together while allowing people to still do LFG and avoid the group-making process.

    This might undermine the LFG tool and increase the time someone would have to be queued. But offering alternatives (and an auto-group tool) is much preferred to the old system of spamming city chat, installing addons that do the same thing, or not getting into the content in the first place.

    It's really hard to make content that 'builds guilds'. Every guild focuses on something different. Shared housing/paths/open world content is good for social guilds, raids are good for raiding guilds, WarPlots/PVP/arena are good for PVP guilds- they're not skipping many niches.

    Lower-difficulty PVE/PVP content should definitely be possible solo. One-night-stand content is perfectly acceptible for casual end-game content. Otherwise the content's not played or enjoyed, in which case people will go to games that let them actually do something outside of AFKing in town.
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  4. Ellianar

    Ellianar Cupcake-About-Town

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    And i hope that's a mindset the devs share. Easy 20 minutes dungeon runs are boring, ( who said late wotlk ? ) i want dungeons to be hard, hard as raids, and that s what it is going to be and you know it if you looked at all the interviews they released so far. Dungeons are eldar game, raids are eldar game, solo content is eldar game.

    The one blind seems to be you, blind to the curse of accessibility and difficulty more and more lowered to fit the ( i can't find any elegant word here ) randoms who can't even figure out why tanking in dps spec suck.
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  5. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    Blizzard is just choosing to force the premaking and pre-agreed communication form, hopefully as a sign that the challenge does require it.

    It is hard getting achievements done if it requires overgeared people to get past the obstacles of someone in the group being terminally bad at communication, bad at playing and/or not wanting to do the achievements because they want a speedy run.

    Heroic 5 man dungeons is actually the same, if you want the achievements completion done early in an expansion, best bet is to premake a group with that purpose, otherwise you have to hope for the luck of the matchmaker at a later time, when most people are fairly geared. If Blizzard removed the meta achievements (or at least their reward) for dungeons early in the expansion, only those who plan to do them early "wins", others would not be able to count on winning by coincidence. It could be an incentive for some to do more premades. But that is another topic.

    Blizzard are working their way from trinity models to pure dps models with scenarios, something some will like and others will despair over. I hope they are not totally doing away the 5 man dungeons, because throwing healers and tanks into raids without doing that role before would hurt, badly.
    Another solution could be to keep the content challenging, and if people want to be sure to make it, they should premake their team - or be willing to invest the time on wiping with a bad match without complaining all the way. But that would likely cause havoc among groups of people and it would not be good with the "no consequence" factor. I still think some problems in Blizzards version of LFD could be solved by requiring a role gating challenge completed.

    Alternatively the dungeons could be dynamically challenging, and only offer the harder versions - and better qear quality - to those, who trigger hardmode bosses by a flawless run.

    Again, another topic though.

    The normal scenarios as a gear up path for pre-raid is too unreliable, would be nice to at least have an idea which scenario has a chance to drop what needed gear slot item.

    I did a day of scenarious for the Saturday achievement, but beyond that they are not interesting to grind after getting the facts and figures of their place in lore. I do like trinity and thus 5 man better, if I feel up to instances, and I have plenty wild pets to collect for waiting in queue as dps, so I have fun content to do.

    Again, another topic though.
  6. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    No one is doubting that WS is going to have some easier content, however the fact that LFD and hard content don't go together was WoW's failing by making their content easier to make it more accessible. It is not to be blamed on the idea of LFD. All LFD should do is make it faster and easier to get a group of people who also want to run a dungeon, it should not place any assumptions on a players skill unless proper matchmaking is also built into it.

    WoW made it's content easier so it's general playerbase got away with doing less to achieve the same results. Fast forward 2 expansions and you've got content that does not punish you adequtely for major mistakes and fights that have been tuned to the new lower skill average so anyone who actually does know how to play blasts through their content.

    Blizzard became scared of telling their millions strong playerbase that maybe the content wasn't too hard but just that maybe some of them weren't good enough. In the end that's what drove *most* of the people that are now looking to WS (with good reason if all the info we know is true and said promises are kept) as the next coming of MMO's.
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  7. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    I would like to see open world group content to get the social aspect back, like camping group bosses in open world areas.

    Instancing took people out of the world, LFD tools just made it more visible. Instancing with no open world alternatives to get the same type of rewards in the open world destroyed community. LFD made grouping it more efficient and even to all. LFD is good, improving LFD is even better, but not having any non-instance alternatives to the same type of rewards gotten in instances is bad.

    If there was similar rewards to open world grouping, many people will set up camping open world instead of instances. Especially if the rewards was a specific category required for challenging heroic group gear and initial raid gear and better. Like augments in EQ years ago - not sure they have it anymore, but for gear between pre-raid and starter raid gear someone doing raiding just a little seriously did camp bosses for those.

    I miss camping bosses in some far away open world cave with guildies, it just does not exists in any new game. MoP has 4 world bosses which usually requires you sit in the city to even notice someone is doing something with, becauuse that is where generel/trade/lfg chat is active, and those encounters last 15 minutes tops after gathering. People need no real commitment, beyond maybe the smart thing of doing all three-four world bosses while the group is gathered anyways.

    No, I am talking about the camps that took anything between 30-60 minutes to clear to and another two to three hours to spawn the selected bosses enough times for everyone having a chance of that augments fitting their class. Heck, we sometimes had groups going all day, because people left and others logged on, who also needed it. Those were the times.

    PVP people might see the benefit of that too. I am a pve-roller, but group content in the open world would be a far better instigator of open world pvp than eliminating teleports to instanced content.

    Ok, enough nostalgia trips.
  8. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    All this states is, hard content can not be done with LFD, as we have designed LFD for accessibility not for challenging content. Therefor allowing randoms to queue up for it is something we see as a guaranteed failure in most cases.

    Not sure why this is a surprise they didn't allow it with challenge modes either.

    It is simply the stage you set, WoW got easier over the years for various reasons one of them being making it easy to catch up with friends, that means the leveling process was made easy what results into people not knowing the basics at max level. Blizzard decided to make the content for LFD / LFR to suit the weakest link in the group, a design choice.

    We all know what happened when cataclysm came out, the dungeons required a bit of thinking and crowd control to manage when everyone was gearing in the heroic modes, they nerfed them due to waves of critique not because they were too hard but because people in random groups could not succeed in doing them often enough.

    WoW design pillar is accessibility, they even preached about on design courses. (hence the last generation mmo's by big companies....you get the picture)
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  9. Triceratops

    Triceratops New Cupcake

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    My biggest thing in MMO's is that I only have an hour or 2 a night during the week... I don't want to spend it searching for a group... I wanna log in, queue, and work on crafting or a few quests while I wait.

    I think it's a neat idea to have LFG for normals only and you have to have a friend for hards/heroics, i can deal with that.
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  10. Alverad

    Alverad Well-Known Cupcake

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    In my eyes, the issues is not LFG, it's cross realm LFG. The tool itself is good, convinient, hardly soemthing to be frawned upon. The fact that it's cross realm and allows you to slack and be a twat because chances are, you will never ran into the same people again, is the problem. The moment anonymity is an issue, and one risks not being invited again, people are sudennly capable to step up their game.

    AcidBaron nailed it, in case of WoW, it's a design issue, their sudden desire to make every aspect of WoW accessible to everyone.
    As long as WS stays away from that mindset we will be fine. LFD or not.
    By all means cater to a wide audience, make content for everyone, just don't assume ALL content needs to be for everybody.

    I could probably count, on my fingers, the number of times I actually used LFG to gather a complete group. We only used it as guild group to grab that missing person, usually healer or tank, if we exhausted our own alt/mains combinations and noone responded in Trade.

    Trouble is, random groups often assume, if they can get in, they are entitled to complete it with little or no effort. If they don't, they become very vocal. Here is me hoping Carbine will remain deaf to those cries, because with cross server LFG in the game, they will happen, sooner then later.
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  11. Menchi

    Menchi Cupcake-About-Town

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    Oh noes! The healer/tank left early?!
    It's a good thing that in Wildstar, everyone has an option other than "Deeps."
    Also, action combat. I've done this in Tera and Neverwinter pretty easily, actually: Low-man the bloody content!
    It's not a tab-target system that requires someone soak up all the damage or what have you. It's just smoother if someone does. If people can dodge skillfully, someone leaving a group early really won't be all that detrimental. Don't believe me? Well, I'm sure I won't be the only one out there purposely low-manning content just because I can. I bet it won't be all that uncommon at all.
  12. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    Server only or crossrealm instances does not matter much for open world community, when it is all pugs.
    The instance takes people out of the open world, who they are grouped with in the instance is irrelevant, the open world server community is not part of it.

    There is a community of players on WoW, who are pressing juice out of the lemons they got with crossrealm - an actual community, that works together and added consequence to being a bad player wether we are talking socially, skillwise or commitment wise. Community happens where people are willing make it and look for potential rather than the negatives of anything new.

    The game developer that figures out how to remove the no consequence part of LFD on their implementatio - or manage to only attract nice, eloquent and mannered people - is a winner on the instanced content matchmaking experience.
  13. Pixie

    Pixie Cupcake-About-Town

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    I am absolutely fine with it if "heroic" dungeons are too hard to do for a group made in a lfg tool, the tool can still be fined for normal modes and levelling. Just because you have the option to get a group with the help of a tool doesn't mean the game needs to b balanced for it. It is better if it isn't. If you get a good random group you can always try the harder content and end up making new friends.

    Between guilds and circles I think people will be more prone to finding their own groups in wild star, especially in the elder game.

    Also, I kind of hope the so-called adventures are excluded from lfg tools...
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  14. Jarinolde

    Jarinolde Cupcake-About-Town

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    The only problem I ever had with Dungeon Finder is that it is the only way to do dungeons. You can do anything there that you could do with a non-queued group, but not vice versa.

    I maintain that there should always be differences between the different ways of doing a dungeon. In Wildstars' case, content, rewards or systems tied to dungeons should also be tied to the different tiers (cross-realm queue, server-only queue, server-only premade) such as a special boss only available via premade groups, or extra rewards for completing a dungeon via server-only queue. Allow the cross-realm queue to be the funnel for the majority, with the other two options having either more incentives or more difficult content.
  15. cirk

    cirk Cupcake

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    Uh I was really happy when I heard Wildstar is going to use tank/heal/dps. Some roles will have longer waiting times using the LGD-tool. But guildwars 2 pve was such a mess. If a group missing a player and maybe a role completely can still finish the dungeon it needs to be balanced. I don't want to do content with an arm strapped behind my back to have a challenge.
  16. Virtual On

    Virtual On Cupcake

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    Just because everything is eldar game does not make it equal.
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  17. Agon

    Agon Cupcake

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    Back in the day when Magister's Terrace (at least i think that was the name of the instance) was released you did it with random people too. LFD doesnt require simple or easy dungeons, if it's hard people will just have to do more explaining and might wipe a few times but honestly if you don't like that you can just form your own party. The problem isn't that tool per se imho, the problem Blizzard is facing now is that they watered down their instances more and more. If some tool on their forums was complaining about not beeing able to finish the instance they nerfed it until basicly everyone could do it.

    Another example would be the first icecrown instances, they were pretty fun at first because they provided a bit of a challenge. After like a month, not sure to be honest how long it lasted, they got nerfed. All 3 of them were freaking easy after that, even the trash got nerfed to the point were you did not have to interrupt a single ability and any decently geared tank could still chainpull.

    But none of those issues are linked to the LFD tool imho, Blizzard simply chose to cater to the masses of crybabies. If you are too bad to clear an instance try to become a better player, if it's gear related go farm up some more gear before you attempt it again. Don't go to the developer and ask why your new max lvl char can't easily finish the instances where the best gear drops.

    Carbine even said you will be able to toggle the option to just queue up with other people from your server, which is one of the best implementations a LFD tool can have imho. Really not scared at all that LFD tools will be on their way out since the principle of it is very nice.
  18. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    You seem to have missed the statements about dungeons,

    Dungeons will have random elements, encounters might change -hourly- in 5 mans. Dungeon will be hard, Raids will be hard as hell, raid encounters will also be randomized with ranking boards.

    While i stated that WoW did more for accessibility, that doesn't generally imply that things automatically have to be made easier, that was a side product of the games age and power creep.

    If the trend is set early on that dungeons are to be hard, players will adapt or leave, you can do that with a new game. I for see that difficulty will be gradually increased to prepare people for raids. Even in solo play they have stated that difficulty will increase making each fight not simply a button spam, we have to follow that design philosophy in dungeons as well.

    Accessibility is not -bad-, it's good we don't need hurdles to simply make things time consuming or an annoyance, LFD is just that. LFD didn't decrease dungeon difficulty in other games, the surrounding design philosophy of the game did. People would've adapted if Blizzard sticked to their guns, but they would've lost part of their player base for a while, not something they could sell to those owning stock in vivendi.

    Now the tricky part comes not from the start of the game but when we are some time into it all, Will wildstar like WoW decrease in difficulty to allow people to quickly join their friends, but that's something for years from now.
  19. Ellianar

    Ellianar Cupcake-About-Town

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    If something is eldar game, it s designed to be challenging and interesting, 30 min dungeons-facerolling isn't.
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  20. Virtual On

    Virtual On Cupcake

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    I was talking about the reward aspect.

    You can't have something be the same difficulty and offer lesser rewards.

    If 5-mans and raids are equally hard, but raids give better loot, why would you ever bother with 5-mans?

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