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Is LFD on its way out?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by John, May 19, 2013.

  1. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    What if there was a smart system, that allowed for different types of Queuing possibilities depending on the current server population? If it was high it would search for server only players, if it's low it widens its range to other servers. This would help communities a lot, as well as you never feeling any real pain of unreasonably long queues, and lets you get some dungeons in on off hours if you want.

    This helps solve the problem with dungeon queues being uselessly long and for players to reconnect after the dungeon. It's rare you find a good tank in current dungeon queues, but it's almost never you find a good tank (or dps or healer or whatever) that's from your server that you can actually play with. The current implementation is so you can still play the game even if you don't have a web of friends, the problem is you can't make a lot of good connections with them, due to cross server reasons (in some games anyway.) I think this could give the chance so when you have the highest density of players, you will be almost solely grouped with people on your server, so if you enjoyed playing with them you can group up again.
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  2. eselle8

    eselle8 Well-Known Cupcake

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    I'm fairly neutral on the dungeon finder (it helps individuals enjoy the game while hurting communities and adding a bit more incivility to the game, and I'm not sure how that weighs out for me), but I think that's a little disingenuous. I remember vanilla WoW with no LFG tool and Burning Crusade with that dumb one no one seemed to use. Hanging out in chat was a primary grouping style for many, many players. It wasn't the only route, but it was an extremely common one. Perhaps EverQuest was different? I never played it, and I don't think it's likely its community will be resurrected in a modern game, especially not one that's made some gestures toward accommodating solo players.

    When designing a game, Carbine should consider what players will do rather than what players ought to do if they're playing the game as intended or what they could do if they had the interest and the social skills to form longer relationships with other players. Unless this game only attracts precious, sparkly, unique little unicorns, what most casual players will do is hang around in LFG chat. That may very well be fine with Carbine and the player base, but I don't think we should pretend it will be otherwise and they'll all suddenly become eligible for and interested in guild membership.
  3. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    This is such the opposite of almost everyone I have seen discuss this, that it almost sounds like you are making it up. I mean, I'll give you the first part, but the second.....:confused:

    Edit - I re-read it and the only thing I can think of, is that you mean if you are in the dungeon finder cross-server, its rare that the random tank you get is both good and from your server...is that what you mean?
  4. Wubzorz

    Wubzorz Cupcake

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    I understand where your coming from.
    However the problem is just as you've stated, players unwilling to adapt to uncomfortable predicaments.
    Implementing a tool that is a blanket fix for the casual player's impatience isn't the smart move.
    More often than not a game that doesn't push you out of your comfort zone doesn't attract a devoted audience.
    I really feel like tools just like these enable the small minority of lazy players that are unwilling to try a little harder to find other grouping methods.

    Although this is coming from a person who thinks a major downfall in WoWs retention rate occurred due to the introduction of cross-realm LFD and LFR.

    *Edit:
    Clarifying that my stance is against automated grouping tools.
    I have no concerns about a system that FACILITATES grouping, but automating it is nonsense. The system I envision is one where a player specifies the type of content they are hoping to establish a group for. The list of these players would be visible to the game world and the party/raid leader would be able to peruse potential party members.
  5. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    Well John, I'm not sure you considered everything about that announcement. 3 lockouts has the potential to burn the heck out of people. For non-raiders, it will burn pugs and their alts into the ground...those guys are going to be in trade constantly and its going to be gearscore to the max all over again. With normal raiders, it will burn them if they have any missing gear slots, and then of course if they raid with alts.
    The other consideration is Wowprogress, I'm betting they just throw their hands up when this goes live, and say screw it, we aren't tracking any of this junk any more.
    Man they just keep squeezing the players more and more, I think this one will end up snapping them.
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  6. BonusStage

    BonusStage Well-Known Cupcake

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    Yeah, that would have the potential to kill people lol
  7. rivalcycle971

    rivalcycle971 Cupcake

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    they better keep it.. people will quit without it. happened in swtor, happened in gw2. most casuals like the convenience. i'm not casual and I would be very disappointed if they got rid of it. It's not fun to spam/advertise for a group. It really isn't.
  8. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Yah sorry, wasn't clear enough, I meant it's very rare to find one of those tanks in a cross server queue that's good and from your server.
  9. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    That's a poor example... SWTOR people didn't leave because they didn't have a dungeon queue, there were much worse problems, and GW2 there was no raiding, so no reason to do dungeons, unless you wanted to... So the raiders left, but a lot of people still play GW2.
  10. Elanith

    Elanith New Cupcake

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    What is up with all this hate at people. People are not "Lazy" because they have a different opinion to you or have different priorities. Am I Lazy when i put together a group of friends/guildies but need 1 more DPS or healer and decide to just pug it? or log in at a time that isnt normal for my friends/guildies?

    I play a tank, and run sooo many dungeons for friends and guildies that i dont want to contimplate how many hours ive put into helping others get the gear they need. Some groups where full friends/guildies, some needed to be filled with LFG tools, and when new content comes out and no one is on ill even just queue up myself. Some groups are great, some ok, and yes ill even have groups that have that 1 person we all hate. the LFG tool isnt the problem, they are, and i dont believe the problem is as widespread as soo many of you are making out or I have a LOT more patience then i give me credit for.

    Its one thing to say "I hate automated LFG systems because it ruins comunitites (or X) and this is why." Calling a large group of people "Lazy" or other names is just your way to make yourself feel better or pressure your viewpoint onto others. It undermines your own position and instead of making me want to agree with you makes me go "What a <redacted>!"

    I was around when there was no tools for helping people run content and how much of a pain it was getting a group, especially before i realized my Tank calling. Yes once you got a group of friends, and eventualy a guild together things became easier, but if we want people to play this game (and we do because if they are not making money, their wont be content pushed out as quickly) we need to ease people into dungeons/raids/elder content.

    They made a good compromise, have the tool in, but give people who only want to run with players from their servers be able to choose that option. I wouldnt even mind if the tool first tried to pair you with people on your own server first, because i do agree to a point that there is a penality to the community with cross server LFD systems and mitigating that as much as possible is a good thing. I just also believe that the benifits outweigh the concquences.
  11. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    The issue isn't community so much imo, as it is the difficulty. The purpose of the Blizzard quotes was to illustrate that perhaps LFD and challenging content do not go well together.
  12. Elanith

    Elanith New Cupcake

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    I could understand your point if the only way to do challenging content forced you to queue up in the LFD tool and randomly paired you with people, but that's not the case.

    You can still make friends on the server, get into a guild and party with only the people you know. You can even talk to people in group chat or /tell random people on your server to put a party together. No where does LFD prevent you from creating groups they way you want to. Why are you trying to stop people from playing the way they want to?

    Difficulty is also not tied to LFD queues. Just because the tool exist doesn't mean the content has to be easy, that's a decision that the Devs make. As people pointed out the original instances for Cata where hard, many groups failed. Those that were mostly pre-made succeed, many that were all random people failed(but not all). Yet the LFG tool existed. This continued till A) people who were succeeding got better geared and B) yes eventually BLIZZARD Developers nerfed the instances. They did this not because people were <REDACTED>ing that instance were too hard (they were <REDACTED>ing, but it wasn't what forced bliz to act) but because their overall strategy, their mission if you will, was to make content accessible to everyone. When they looked at how many people were successfully clearing the dungeons, and realized it was lower than wanted, they fixed a few things and nerfed a few others.

    It sounds more like people don't like how it was implemented by other developers and automatically assume that its going to happen again in this game. How about we trust Carbine to get it right. Speak up, let them know what you didn't like about the systems in the past. Hell it sounds like they already did listen to a lot of people, and made it better. No LFR tool and giving people the option to queue only with people on their own server. There just isnt any reason to act like its somehow destroying your way of playing the game. Its just the opposite, when your calling for the LFD tool to be removed your demanding everyone who disagrees with you to play your way. People have concerns, many of them valid, but the LFD tool does have benefits. Some of those benefits you may not care for, but many people find value in them.
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  13. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

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    No, no they don't at all. Blizzard just randomly decided half way through cata that they do. All of the Cata heroics were very hard when they first came out and you needed stable groups with constant CC to pull through. The ZA/ZG heroics were then put in and those were suicidal for a while. People change and adapt to the new harder content, that is how it's supposed to be. When dungeons in LFG are hard it encourages players to become smarter and more skillful, and many many players are capable of doing this. Instead Blizzard decided that they wanted easy content, which results in players getting careless, bored, and stupid.

    There is absolutely no reason you should be able to walk into any dungeon and down bosses on the first attempt. You're supposed to have to try and fail and learn and then succeed. Dungeon bosses (specifically heroics in wow) should remain difficult as long as you don't outgear them considerably. Having harder dungeons not only increases player skill and intellect, but it encourages cooperation and leadership skills, and all in all it makes you a better person.

    Making dungeons easier was a poor decision by blizzard in an attempt to cater to the 10% of WoW players that were too bad/casual to learn/gain skill/adapt in the harder dungeons. I have faith that wildstar/carbine will not cater the endgame progression content around the 10% of unskilled and unmotivated players that really have no place in such content to begin with. There should be other things in the game for people like that to do if they want, but catering the endgame progression around players who obviously care less about progressing/improving/adapting is a terrible decision and one of the main reasons I will never be returning to WoW.

    Do not make content easier for less skilled players, keep it difficult so that they are forced to improve their skills.

    Double post because I'm cool. I couldn't agree more with your post. The only thing I would say is that not as many groups in cata heroics failed as people say. I was really scared to start them but after I got a few under my belt I started leading the groups and marking targets etc because I knew what had to be done, and also when and how it needed to be done. Granted I was a tank and more skillful than your average joe (Bragging not intended), but I was still being paired with other people I needed to take charge of, and once they had a sense of direction all the dungeons went fairly smooth. I would say a major problem would be people who enter a LFG dungeon and upon seeing nooby players they shout profanities and discourage them rather than help them to get better or lead the group. WoW's community overall was pretty bad, but honestly if JUST ONE PERSON steps up in a group, all challenging content can be beaten back fairly easily just by working together, you don't need to make the content easier. Making content easier just ruins the game for the majority and doesn't encourage the minority to get better or try harder.

    Try>Fail>Plan>Try>Win
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  14. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    I agree with that, and I think that is exactly what a non-matchmaking system provides. Having someone form their own group eliminates that problem of "who is going to lead". The leader is built into the system.

    I see so many complaints from people who "don't want to sit and spam trade for hours." Well don't then. Just like the Paths appeal to different gamer types, grouping can too. Some people actually want to form groups and lead them, they don't mind being the one to look for other players. A 5 person group requires only 1 person to form it, the other 80% of the playerbase can continue to sit around waiting for their group to be formed for them if thats what they like.
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  15. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    1) It slightly increases laziness, and never decreases laziness.


    So LFG tools are put in the game to build convenience. If you're building convenience you're also building laziness in your players. Because the type of players that use the LFG tool usually will never go form a group the old fashioned way, because it doesn't allow them to go do what they want while they are searching for a group. So, while not everyone who uses it is lazy, it allows for laziness to persist.

    2) It allows for more anonymity when queuing cross server.

    This means players are punished much less for actions they take, sure they could get kicked from a group, but that just tells them, "Time to take a break and go get a sandwich." Also, most groups are too busy continually pulling and going for the end of the dungeon to worry about one guy.

    Here's some proof behind that:


    3) Cross server queues creates "missed" connections.

    If you get a great group, but everyone's on a different server you can't say to them "Hey, how'd you like to come join my raid?" unless of course there's a good easy cheap transfer mechanism. No one's going to server transfer if they don't have a chance at a backup and maybe even a third raid guild on the new server. It's just dumb. Things don't work out for various reasons. So, even if you can have them transfer, it's rough on the transferring player. Secondly, if you're playing on off peak hours, or they are, as a weird occurrence (such as a holiday, or they took the day off) then there's not a likelihood you'll ever play with them again.

    4) If players aren't forced to do a server only LFD it likely will fail with the "option."

    So, the reason Carbine decided not to do full server only queuing was because the queue times would be too long. This then means that the populations aren't going to be appropriately sized to keep a queue down below an hour on average if it's not peak times, and possibly even if it is. Now, you take that and tell people "Oh yah, your group is still random, but it takes about an hour longer to queue for the server only one than the other." This is what the community will say about it when someone asks, or friends will tell their friends that. The rewards are exactly the same, but there's a chance you can meet cool people. This just isn't important to some people.

    This means the population using the server only LFG tool will be limited even further, and increase an average of an hour and a half queue time to an average of 3 hours, then 6 hours, then indefinite, because the one tank on the server that decides to do server only found a full group and is rolling with them today. So, as queue times increase on the server only tool, the more players will either turn to the cross server tool, or to just forming a group the old fashioned way.

    5) Cross server LFG tools promote group play, but not team play.

    There's a big difference here. As mentioned before by many, a "team" communicates and gels together, a "group" is just people playing alongside each other, but not gaining any of the other benefits which are gained through communication. It means players will not help or explain things so everyone advances and gets better at the game, or that players will not listen to others due to zero credibility as to who they are or what they've done. You ever been told by someone how to play your class that "has a main that is the class" and is trying to give you pointers? How did that go over? You ever been in their shoes?

    In the end LFG tools do not cause the problem, but they allow these problems to persist.
  16. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    On top of this, if you form a group through normal means, many players will not join you because they don't have to do a DPS check or a "tryout" or worry about losing their anonymity because they are going to need on everything. They'll think it's weird that someone's not using LFG queue, because they are spamming trade chat. I thought it was weird in WoW to form a group through normal means when I played. In retrospect I understand it now. This means you're dividing your player pool, making both searching mechanisms worse, eventually one will largely win over the others and you'll have to hope you can meet new players to play with in other means if you go with the minority one.
  17. Kookieduck

    Kookieduck Cupcake

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    Also, pug runs are a great way to meet people! I played some great people in random groups and then we went on to queue up as a group! How do you meet folks to create a ready-made group unless you randomly meet people? Unless you only play with your friends and you all play at the same time. A ready-made group doesn't equal a great group.
  18. Kookieduck

    Kookieduck Cupcake

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    Lazy
    ?Lazy? Just playing the game instead of housework, homework, employment, yardwork, etc. is lazy. I'm playing a game! So, yeah, I'm lazy. : ) And it's fun!
  19. mysticjbyrd

    mysticjbyrd Cupcake-About-Town

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    It takes you a long time to form the group. The healer just came back to town to check his mail...
  20. mysticjbyrd

    mysticjbyrd Cupcake-About-Town

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    What a huge crock. Anyone who thinks MMOs were better prior to LFD are wearing some nostalgia goggles thicker than the ocean. It was bad!

    LFD doesn't destroy communities. The people on your friends list were not your friends. They were just people who weren't laughably bad at the game. Which, I still keep such people on my friend list in case we need a pug for a raid.

    People are lazy because they don't want to sit in town and spam chat for an hour to get a group together? A random group likely no better than one the LFG tool could have slapped together in a minute? How is that laziness? That is nonsense. You could maybe argue impatience, but it required the patience of a saint to sit and monitor chat for an hour to try to form a group.
    SiegaPlays likes this.

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