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Is LFD on its way out?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by John, May 19, 2013.

  1. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    Blizzard have made some good 5 man dungeons in recent xpacs, but most of them got nerfed shortly after release of them.

    I have mentioned before that I really liked how the late dungeons in WotLK gated access to each other with FoS -> PoS -> Halls of Reflection. While HoF was not impossible in LFD, premaking a group would be less frustrating because at least a premade were interested in completing rather than giving up and get a swingdoor of puggers, until someone stuck around.

    Cata heroics was not only challenging at the start due to being new and undergeared, but also because most classes as per usual were changed and healer mana was suddenly an issue again due to the changes and gear after being a non issue all but a month of WotLK. Mind controlling adepts to use their greater heals for healing the group still stands as some of the most fun moments I had in early Cata heroic dungeons.

    Some people are just not willing to stick around until completion if there is the slightest obstacle or a need to learn the fight. They also blow up issues out of proportions so in their mind it can not be done with the current group - though a little grit and commitment finish it well enough, if one is willing to deal with wipes rather than expecting instant 20 mins gratification.

    Blizzard streamline their content from those statistics. Which means accessability - or keeping people in their matched group for completion - requires a next to no challenge for a fully match group in the instance content to reach the goal of cap x percentage of people leaving before completion.

    Actually, if someone wants to change Blizzard and prevent nerfs, they should start a community chat for running premades, so there is more completions and less statistics to confirm the need for nerfs. Statistics can be corrupted with community efforts - those who leaves early or gets kicked actually confirms Blizzards belief in the need of nerfing - I guess that is an indirect consequence of being a jerk getting kicked.

    Some sort of role skill gate would help also - and basing access ilvl by role gear and not overall gear - so instead of making the content much easier, they make sure the players have a clue about what they are doing and adequate gear to go with - rather than no skill and gear from getting carried by friends or strangers. A dps warrior should not be able to queue as a tank in LFR is they have nada tank gear, just to get a faster queue.

    However, Blizzard choose to copy their LFR model back onto scenarios/challenge mode dungeons. Easy mode can be matched, heroic or challenge mode needs premaking - crossrealm or not. Which is an ok way to do it, and I assume the gear drops in the non-easy modes are proportionally better.

    Which reminds me, I really hope Throne of Thunder normal mode goes crossrealm soon :)
  2. Thordran

    Thordran Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think that the MMO genre has gotten to the point where LFD or LFG finder tools are just something that's going to have to be part of the toolset regardless of the social implications or what it means for tuning the content to the lowest common denominator or what have you. This doesn't mean that it has to be all bad though.

    I don't really have a problem with the tools per se. I currently play TOR and use the dungeon finder tool (which is your server only) to get a daily reward. I haven't run into very many people who are complete idiots, or won't listen to a strategy or use crowd control on marked targets etc. I think that it's a function of how the game itself "trains" people to do group content. 4 person difficulty (group size in TOR) quests in the open world are not soloable (unless you seriously overlevel them), many are difficult and require the use of crowd control, some focus targeting, active healing and cleansing, interrupting, etc. in order for them to go smoothly. Completing the content is rewarded with things that the solo quests don't offer, like customizable weapons and armor of a higher quality. This translates over into the dungeon game, so folks expect it and you don't see people pulling half the instance and expecting to succeed for the most part. This is much different than my limited experience in Warcraft.

    In Vanilla and TBC Warcraft, people were trained to a greater degree earlier on how to function in a group because certain quests and areas were packed with elite mobs. This was an era of "wait for three sunders before attacking the mob" as well, so people were a bit more disciplined on how to work together. I can't speak to anything after Wrath, but from talking to friends who still play, a group isn't really required for any type of progress until very late in Warcraft now as everything is pretty faceroll. I think that much of Warcraft's problem with the LFD tools has to do with this as people just aren't trained to work together in groups and their skills fall behind in this area, so they try to please more people by catering to the lowest common denominator.

    If Wildstar trains people early how to effectively work as a group, and they seem to have an idea with this whole telegraph thing, then I think that LFD will work better. If everything in the game is faceroll easy and quick to do, you can't expect anyone to have patience or be willing to put forth more effort in a grouping situation. Why would they? They can just go back to easy soloing and progress no problem. Path of least resistance is a powerful motivator, even for those that are group inclined.

    I also think that if you group with your friends you should have access to the same daily reward or whatever the that tool may give you access to, or perhaps even a greater reward. If you go through the trouble of finding your own group then you should at least be on par with the convenience of the LFD tool. Perhaps if you offered something on top of that, you'd find people being more social and having more incentive to work together? Not sure, have to see it in action, but seems like a decent idea. I dunno, just spitballin' as they say.

    I don't think these tools are going away, but you get the type of community that you incentivize so I hope that some thought is going into this.
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  3. Sevvy

    Sevvy Cupcake-About-Town

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    Exactly how I feel. Except that you probably said it in a nicer way than I normally do. :D

    When you see games that didn't have a LFG queue and how the community worked, and then see how a game with a LFG tool has a complete lack of a community, you realize that the LFG tool is not worth the convenience. It has its pros for sure, but the cons contribute to killing an aspect of a MMO that is very important.
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  4. Corruptdevil

    Corruptdevil Cupcake

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    This is what I want to stop seeing. I want there to be a main hub in the game yes, but I do not want to sit in a city 4/6 hours that I'm actually playing the game. Thats an exaggeration of course, the real number is probably between 45 minutes to 2 hours at best. But my point is I'm tired of flying in circles in cities.
  5. Virtual On

    Virtual On Cupcake

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    LFG didn't do anything.

    <REDACTED>s stand out, and the more people you have the more <REDACTED>s you have. It's a result of internet anonymity and a population increase.


    There were always <REDACTED>s.
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  6. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    My point exactly. Sitting in cities is not fun and only trolls wins anything from it, and it is sad that LFG chat is only availble in the city - in WoW right now, we have to go to every single zone in MoP including the city on to announce raid gathering on world bosses, and people doing past xpac content or pet battles a missing out still - if there was more open world group content, chats would have to be reconfigured to apply to the need for out of city/out of zone communication.

    Because we need open world content. Let instances be instances with LFG for efficiency, they do give a good game for those with a mind for it. Some people love to lobby them (me, for gearing when hitting max level), some run one occasionally (like me later in xpac), others don't like them, but it is the only real group size content at max level there is at the moment - and that is the error right there, when it comes to community building and socializing.

    What we need is open world group content, so grouping is not just something to do in instances, which no matter how you make the group takes you out of the MMO part of the game and into a co-op part of it for a period of time - and I am still of the opinion that spamming LFM once a minute in some chat in city is not adding anything of quality to the community besides drowning trolls out (hm, I guess that is a good argument for it though :p).

    Open world elder game group content, camping group bosses in the open world for something that has an equivalent meaning to gear progression as what can be had from the group instance runs, something that is an alternative to grouping and a slightly different loot table so you are not totally dependent on running one type of group content. You do need to run both to a degree if you min/max, but if you are a non-raider with no time to spare, you can lobby the instances for decent gear, though not the best complete gear - if you do not have the time to gear up proper, you do not have the time for the raiding which requires the gear at intro level.

    Since Wildstar has their chip system, which is basically a deep mods or augs or socket system, giving open world group bosses something special in that department on their loot table would make them all the more interesting for those, who really get into their gear progression and min/max obsession.
  7. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    Not completely but to achieve that we have to go back to my the early mmo days.
    Where you had raid bots and needed a large group of players to do anything, therefor if you didn't behave or wanted to act special you ended up not doing much.

    So LFD alone doesn't, however here LFD will be based on your server not cross server. I think they do this simply for the fact to get multiple 40 man guilds the population per server has to be rather high so they can get enough matches made without doing cross realm.
  8. Psistorm

    Psistorm Cupcake-About-Town

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    LFG or not, I think this seems to be about the automatic queuing versus difficulty.
    Wildstar has the advantage here, being a new game. They can do both. Auto-queuing AND hard dungeons. Why? Because if they start out hard, they can build the expectation that yes, dungeons will not be welfare facerolls, even early on. It worked for Secret World, they had an LFD system with teleports etc, and their dungeons were imho on par with WoW heroics at least, even early on. No one complained as far as I could tell. Because the game built expectations early on in the leveling phase.

    Personally, LFD has benefits, and it is a convenience tool many people want. That doesn't make them bad players. I think that ultimately, hard dungeons, even with LFD, serve to filter out those who are up to it, and those who aren't. Whilst faceroll dungeons carry people who are unwilling to learn far further, because they can slack off without suffering for it. So by all means, keep the convenience option, but have an LFG channel that works zonewide or world-wide, so you can assemble a group and roll out to do some runs together.

    That said, the idea of scenarios, aka hard 5-man content you might want premades for, is a nice idea as well. Something perhaps to appeal to those who aren't up for 20+ man content, but who still want a challenge in a group.
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  9. Ellianar

    Ellianar Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well raids are by nature harder than dungeons because they need more people to achieve but i don't see any reason that dungeons strats should be any easier than a raid one, it would just be easier to perform because you re only 5 people by strats can basically be the same.



    So globally a dungeon is easier to organize, to optimize and to perform therefore they give lesser rewards.
  10. Anoteros

    Anoteros Cupcake

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    LFG channel, no need for LFG tool imo.
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  11. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    If they find the "hard" content is hard, then there are 2 options. They get better (better gear, improve skill, etc), or they play easier content. Easy, eh? Let people learn what their limits are.

    Sorry, but what you bring up is really subjective. WoW is better now than it was before? That is purely a matter of opinion. I can safely say that "in my opinion" WoW was better before, than it is now. I can never state that as a fact though, simply because everyone perceives the game differently. I'm sure lots of people also perceive it as you do, and think WoW has improved over the years. That's fine too, but it cannot be stated as a fact.

    I personally like having harder content. Mind you, I do not mind having easier content either. I like having lots of different options for different skill levels, so people can play at the level they are comfortable with. The problem with WoW for quite a few years, is that they made all content accessible to everyone (hence the content perceived as "easy"). That may not be the case now (I have not played in more than a year), and it was not the case in vanilla, and I liked that.
  12. TeoH

    TeoH Well-Known Cupcake

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    Blizzard have the luxury of being able to add content like this, because they already have so many things for the mainstream players to do that it's coming out of their ears. Do not make the mistake that you can simply ignore those millions of subscribers that are required to keep the game afloat. The changes and additions to WoW have generally done a good job of providing things for everyone to do - They hit the whole spectrum, and they need to keep on hitting the whole spectrum, because the kind of sub numbers you're talking about in WoW's case cannot exist in a game that only caters to a niche.

    LFD isn't going anywhere, they are able to do this type of challenge dungeon because they have so much casual friendly LFD/LFR content to occupy the masses that they can afford to give a nod to the high end. They have the resources to keep their behemoth rolling because they attract millions of players, most of which will never see this content, and it's those subscribers you have to thank for it, because they're bank rolling it.
  13. Sevvy

    Sevvy Cupcake-About-Town

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    LFG allows players to not do anything. That's part of the problem. It has made gamers lazy. Lazy, entitled gamers that expect to put no effort into anything and still get purples. It's a complete joke.
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  14. _decayed

    _decayed New Cupcake

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    I'm fine with a LFG tool and chat channel for your server. I do not want any cross-realm dungeons though. That fractures the community. I find that it takes away from my experience of the game since everyone just wants to rush through the dungeons. I know it will be a little different in Wildstar, since it's a new game, but I'm concerned that eventually it will end up like that.
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  15. Virtual On

    Virtual On Cupcake

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    It ends up like that regardless.
  16. Freja

    Freja Cupcake

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    I kind of miss running to dungeons with the group.

    This might sound silly but I use to feel like I got to know people better when we took the time to run to the dungeon. This is probably in part due to having to rely on chat + whispers and also due to everyone being on the same server.

    With the current way LFG is, we don't even talk. People do perform their assigned role and than leave once the dungeon is over. Very little player interaction- you might as well be playing with sophisticated AI.
  17. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    That to me is the root of the problem. The LFD tool needs a large pool of players to pick from in order for it to give its only real benefit over premade groups: ease of group formation. People click a button and they are soon whisked away to a faraway dungeon.

    But what happens if dungeons are so hard that people are not queing up? LFD primary benefit (time saver) has now been essentially removed because there are not enough players to feed the que pipeline and give you a group expediently. That is the point where I am afraid dungeons will simply be nerfed to deepen the pool again and ensure the system can keep working.

    I wouldn't mind a LFD tool for leveling dungeons and normal dungeons, but imo heroic dungeons should be premade only, just like WoW is shifting to now.
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  18. Sevvy

    Sevvy Cupcake-About-Town

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    That's part of the problem. The culture of the game has changed so much because of these LFG tools that now you're not running dungeons for fun and loot. People are just spam queueing to faceroll for loot loot loot. The people there aren't potential friends or future guildmates. They're just roles.

    "Tank GO! GO GO GO! GO TANK!" That's about the most talking that is done in groups. It's sad.
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  19. Virtual On

    Virtual On Cupcake

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    This is when people quit the game.

    A random group formed through chat is no different than a random group formed through a LFG-tool.

    It's still a random group.


    People in this thread need to stop attributing things to LFG that it does not create.

    It facilitates it, but the problem is people. EQ had these problems, but they were glossed over because it was a niche title with a small population, in comparison, to something like WoW which has penetrated the mainstream market.

    You have to realize people are lazy.
    People don't want to lose.
    Above all, people don't want to waste their time.


    The thing is, Blizzard acted on this. They adjusted their system.

    You need to, to a certain degree, but you need to adjust it in a way not to alienate any one market.
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  20. BennyBones

    BennyBones Cupcake

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    Dungeon finder is one of the best things WoW ever did. Easily one of the best. I suspect there's a lot of rose tinted glasses going on in this forum. Or a lot of masochists. Some people just love it when the grind isn't just a boring grind, but an inaccessible, slow, annoying grind where the very gameplay goes against you to ensure you're truly having a horrible time. Make no mistake, Wildstar will feature a grind. Making the path through the grind more accessible, making it smoother, isn't a bad thing. It doesn't mean raids or dungeons can't be hard. The top tier heroic raids in WoW are overcome by only a handful of percent of all those that play. The darn troll heroic dungeons were a pain in the arse compared to what came before, but people still managed to get through them fine. Would have been even better if even the earlier dungeons were a bit tougher, get people used to it. LFD doesn't need to have any kind of influence on the difficulty or fun of the dungeons and in effect the raids.

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