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Is LFD on its way out?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by John, May 19, 2013.

  1. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    They are not the same though. As has been discussed ad nauseam, player generally are going to be more committed to a group when they cannot hide behind the shelter of anonymity that x-realm LFD provides. If your reputation as a player and future grouping ability is at stake, you are far more likely to stick with your group through thick and thin in order to not run the risk of being label as a bad apple.

    LFD provides a too-convenient cop out, where both bad play and rude, immature behavior is not penalized; all the player has to do is click the little que button again and he is given a fresh group in which he can continue his bad play.

    Imo this does affect the difficulty; since players have no reputation at stake in a LFD dungeon their is very little stopping them from leaving at the first sign of struggle in the group. In order to stop groups from constantly falling apart, the solution has been to simply nerf everything to the point where its almost impossible to struggle.

    I'm not saying it has to be that way, but the entire point of this thread is to point out that WoW, despite the "incredible success" of the LFD tool, seems to be going back to premade groups for their challenging content. That to me is very telling in regards to the question of 'can LFD content be challenging'.
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  2. Psistorm

    Psistorm Cupcake-About-Town

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    Oh I agree on the player pool requirements, that makes sense. That, along with 40-man raiding are pretty good arguments for a philosophy of "less shards, but bigger shard population". Granted the economy would have to be balanced for it, but this would allow a sizable player pool, as well as enough big guilds able to sustain 40-man raids.

    And I think that if the LFD tool dies out, then there should simply be a global LFG channel where people can advertise. Or better yet, take a page from EQ2, who had global, level based channels.
    You could have LFG for anything low/mid, and once you hit max level, you swap into the elder game LFG, where people will be LFGing heroics and such instead. This would make for a very clean seperation of the various interests.
  3. Virtual On

    Virtual On Cupcake

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    No you aren't. You're more likely to be viewed better for actually having the cahones to leave a bad group.

    Same can be said for local parties. Have you not played any MMO since EQ?

    I feel, and have experienced, just the opposite. When groups struggle, there is always a reason. Depending on the instance of struggling, I was one of the people who left.

    That soluation has nothing to do with LFG.

    Going back to partial-premades(hint, still can queue for 2 others) to give harder content a higher success rate without needing to nerf it.
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  4. Absolute

    Absolute Cupcake

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    LFD was a killer in WoW. It felt like 90% of the playerbase who played before the patch back there also had the same understanding.

    LFD was the major fact why zones become more and more empty.

    There really is no point to put such a system in an MMO anymore. I am sure it can be differently. Look at Neverwinter, everything is accessible via such a function and the whole world feels like a stale zone-fest. Anything far from an open-world.
  5. Virtual On

    Virtual On Cupcake

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    Again, that has to do with a lack of content in the world than the LFG finder.

    If you have nothing to do but run dungeons, that's all you'll see people doing.

    If you make it worthwhile to be out in the open, people will do that while they are queued,
  6. Ellianar

    Ellianar Cupcake-About-Town

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    Have you ever played Wow? LFD was the major fact zones got reinvested a little bit... Before LFD ALL THE PEOPLE were in Dalaran spamming to find a group for the daily heroic dungeon, with LFD they could do their stuff while waiting, ie farming,dailies etc outside of Dalaran
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  7. Apostate

    Apostate Well-Known Cupcake

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    WoW's not getting rid of the matchmaking system... LFR is their big thing right now. They actually put out an official dev blog on their main site that pretty much tells people that once you hit cap, you're supposed to be doing LFR. It's one of the reasons I've lost all interest in the game. I don't like raiding. Period. I was happy in Cata, when a newly capped character had a plethora of dungeons to gear their way through and you could make decent bank running them. It was a pugger's dream: smooth, easy money in a good group but challenging (without being impossible)in a bad one.

    The best part? I didn't have to sit around and spam Trade looking for people that I would never play with again. When I wanted to socialize, I ran those dungeons with friends from my guild. I had fun. But I liked the fact that I didn't -have- to socialize just to do basic content. I remember running dungeons with friends before LFD... we basically draw straws to see who would have to be the one to do the legwork in putting the group together. It was nothing any of us ever -wanted- to do, we dreaded it.

    Anyways... anyone who legitimately has more fun typing "LF2M, tank and healer" in chat every few minutes than actually playing the game... you're welcome to do so.
  8. Apostate

    Apostate Well-Known Cupcake

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    Right? WoW was never this mystical land of friendship and brotherhood that everybody seems to think it was at one point. If people -wanted- to be out there making new friends in random zones for no reason, they would be. This isn't Mister Rogers' Neighborhood. People don't want a game that deliberately inconveniences them for the sake of nebulous ideals like "community" or "server identity" or "a living world". They want to get the most fun they can out of the time they invest and they will take the path of least resistance to reach that end.
  9. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    I wish I could like this statement 100 times! THIS!!!
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  10. Apostate

    Apostate Well-Known Cupcake

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    Correlation does not equal causality.

    Yes, the "quality of MMO communities" has been on a downturn for a very long time. No, it wasn't started by LFG. Truthfully, they were never that great in the first place. MMOs have gotten bigger and more popular, and as the demographic increasingly shifts toward the instant gratification crowd, the slope will only get steeper.

    Yes, in older games players interacted with each other in the "open world" much more. This interaction frequently included things like griefing, ganking, spawn-camping (of rare mobs or resources, still happens), objective-stealing, and general nastiness. The oldest MMOs, which also had the most tight-knit communities (people who started with WoW have no idea what a real server community is, sorry), were filled with some of the most cutthroat, back-stabbing, status-jockeying alpha nerds ever to pimple up the internet.

    This isn't all about PvP, either. In PvE oriented games, people were actually harder on one another when forming a group meant a lot of time wasted on searching for party members. In FFXI (yes, I know, lol)you could get kicked out of a party for being the wrong race/class combo. Not an exaggeration. In less hardcore games, you could still get left out in the cold for being in a guild someone in the group didn't like, or for being a class that might compete with them for loot they want, or just for making a comment they didn't like.

    The new system isn't perfect, but neither was the old one.
  11. kiri

    kiri Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think there are many confounding factors that damaged the community in wow and other MMOs. I don't think LFG is inherently bad, but the way it was implemented in WoW was terrible for a couple of reasons:

    Cross Realm: I think this may have been the single most damaging element to the community. The anonymity of x-realm grouping means you never have any incentive to get to know anyone, or even bother being polite. You used to take the time to get to know people because you would most likely group up again - you wanted to keep your reputation as a good player, and you might even end up in the same guild some day. It was worth it to get to know people.

    If you had a horrible slog through a dungeon that took all evening, at least you learned whether or not your groupmates were worth grouping with again.

    Now with X-realm you may as well be playing with NPCs. It's the same experience. Even if you want to meet people, what's the point? You'll never see them again, you'll never end up in their guild, and if you have any hiccup at all you can just replace them in an instant with some other equally anonymous body.

    Ease of Content: wow's LFG philosophy seems to be that you should be able to complete anything you queue up for 95% of the time. Everything is so easy that you don't have to talk and you never fail. When's the last time you felt a sense of accomplishment in a 5 man dungeon? Sharing a sense of accomplishment with anyone (be it your guildies or a random pug player) is good for fostering community.

    Even though I personally am not a big fan of LFG, I recognize that it is part of the modern MMO landscape. That doesn't mean it has to have the same downfalls as other games though. A LFG that was strictly same server, and that isn't dumbed down for 100% success, can have all the convenience of facilitated grouping while minimizing damage to the community.
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  12. Virtual On

    Virtual On Cupcake

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    http://www.notaddicted.com/fansythefamous.php
  13. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    Exactly. Somewhere along the way people forgot what the term 'group content' actually meant. The entire point of grouping is to give you a different type of play experience than your solo one. Working together isn't an optional component of group play, its the definition of it.

    LFD has generally turned group play into something much closer to solo play. There is pretty much zero need to work together or communicate, your party members literally could be replaced by mediocre NPCs and your play experience would still be the same.

    You are proving my point. Premades=ability to have harder content.
    Also, they are full premades as heroic scenarios only require 3 players, not partial.
  14. Silas Jasar

    Silas Jasar Cupcake-About-Town

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    Think you have it the opposite way. People are in the wild (mining, questing, etc.) waiting for the que to pop rather than in the city or at the dungeon entrance spamming chat for group members.
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  15. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    Blaming an auto-grouping feature for the breakdown of in-game community is intellectual laziness.

    As others have said, it is the content itself, not how you access it that makes the difference. It's about expectations. If you set a standard where the dungeons themselves are relatively easy for group content that is hard to wipe on, groups will routinely clear that content fairly quickly and trouble-free. Thus, people expect their dungeon runs to be quick and problem free. When all of a sudden your content becomes a lot harder, people begin to b****. This isn't a problem with the content (unless it's like a glitch) but rather people's resistance to change, aka the normalcy bias.

    If anything, the only real detriment to grouping in MMOs done by LFD features is that you don't have to travel to the dungeon, but that's it. Even the travel itself sometimes serves no purpose other than to eat up time doing nothing but travelling.
  16. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    At the same time, they've actually provided challenging content for premades in the form of Challenge modes, hopefully heroic scenarios, and 10/25 man raiding.

    It's kind of silly to pretend that WoW doesn't have any challenging content.
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  17. Alverad

    Alverad Well-Known Cupcake

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    Yeah, double backpeddling lol...not working out all that great either, since they drove an insane amount of their slightly more hardcore players away, and those left on the battlefield, have not so great choice when it comes to recruitment. Way to go, 'raise' an entitled generation, then start creating content for those that left :D How do they expect that to work, beats me :p
  18. Deadite

    Deadite New Cupcake

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    I do not like dungeon finder tools. It seems like for every shortcut convenience thing added to a game something else is lost. I thought it would be great when I first heard the dungeon finder was being introduced into WoW but then I did not realise at the time what the negative aspects would be.

    I began to really hate doing dungeon runs after that thing was put in, partly because it was like grouping with bots and people rarely socially interacted with each other (except to flame when people screwed up), partly because people were able to get away with trollish behaviour without having any consequences, partly because it seemed to encourage that blast through as quick as possible mentality and partly because it make the game just feel less like a MMO and more like a lobby.

    Then there's the fact everyone is just sitting around waiting for queues to pop instead of talking to each other to find groups. I made a lot of friends in earlier WoW years looking for or being invited to random groups, hell I found one of the best guilds I was ever in that way. I can say with honesty and without rose tinted anything that I preferred the game a lot before this tool was introduced. I know for certain I had far less meaningful interaction with people outside my guild after it was.

    People say it's your choice to use it or not but it really isn't, once it's in there there's no going back. Not only is it much harder to find a regular group but you also kinda have to use it to keep up with other people that do in terms of gear - at least if you want to be as useful as possible to your guild - which I always do.
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  19. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    LOL
    Nice jump there he didn't blame LFD he gave an example of how it effected things.
  20. Sevvy

    Sevvy Cupcake-About-Town

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    Lol WoW generation.

    Tell us all about the games that you played before WoW that so badly needed a LFG tool. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that your first MMO was made by Blizzard, and that's all you know.

    Lots of factors contributed to the destruction of the MMO community. The LFG tool was a major part of that, for sure.

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