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Is LFD on its way out?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by John, May 19, 2013.

  1. BonusStage

    BonusStage Well-Known Cupcake

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    1 weapon for each class might seem like a bad thing at first, but it allows for much more crazy design then multiple weapons do and it allows for them to work on somthing that meets the style of the class.

    unlike WoW where you had a weapon that had to fit multiple classes, and looked bland and boring.

    enough off topic, lets go back on trail
  2. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    There's always the possibility of multiple weapons for one class only. Say, polearms, swords, and hammers for warriors and daggers and claws for stalkers. Nobody has to compete over weapons still except those of the same class and there would still be a lot of variety. There's only so many kinds of designs you can create with a certain weapon type before it can no longer really be called the weapon that it is. An axe and a mace look radically different, but I'd be sad if my favorite class could only use maces when axes should be available too. I have an even better solution for the weapon variety discussion but that's another thread topic.

    Personally, I couldn't care less on whether a dungeon finder is implemented in WS. I would probably prefer it somewhat for the convenience factor, but I can use other LFG tools or chat channels to find or create groups should I desire to go somewhere. I just don't buy most of the reasons people are claiming for being against the LFD system in WoW for example. All of these negative experiences were just as prevalent for me back before dungeon finder was implemented. Our goal with creating any LFG feature should be the maximum amount of convenience with as few negatives as possible so as to create the best playing experience possible with grouping.

    I'm surprised at just how heated the discussion on LFD has become though. I don't see it as a game-breaking feature by any means but it's clear a lot of folks have a very strong opinion on it. I just don't see things that way and my experiences back up my position. Again, it doesn't really matter to me though. If the content is bad, it'll be difficult to find a decent group with or without dungeon finder.
  3. Corruptdevil

    Corruptdevil Cupcake

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    There are more people in the cities in wow than there are in the wild. I know I've been gone a few months, but i doubt players have changed much if at all.
  4. BonusStage

    BonusStage Well-Known Cupcake

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    Blame that on the lack of content on the ''wild''
    currently 99% of wow content is instanced, you cant blame people for staying in town waiting for a queue to pop
  5. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    maybe I am not understanding your idea here, but are you saying there should be no chatting at all in any zones, or that the chat should be moderated in game so that people cannot ask "LFM dungeon level 20"

    How would you prevent people from asking for dungeons as opposed to just saying "how is everyone doing today".
    You can put in matchmaking tools sure, but would those tools prevent people from asking in chat?

    I wouldn't mind a specific LFG chat channel, that you could /leave or /join.
  6. Melons

    Melons New Cupcake

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    The LFD can be in the game, but it should not give you any rewards. Why would you get a reward for just queuing up for something? This also makes not using the LFD less rewarding. I love that they are trying to bring back more of a server community with a server-only choice, but will it be used? I have a feeling people will prefer shorter queues in the cross-server LFD than waiting longer for people from your own server.

    Carbines biggest hurdle with hard dungeons will be the <REDACTED>storm on their forums from the current wow community. Blizzard has given players easy dungeons > rewards for doing nothing, so expect the outcry to be huge.

    Edit: I would also like the LFD to only set you up with other people, not teleport you to the dungeon. Sitting in the city queueing totally kills off the rest of the game world. This also gives you a few minutes to discuss tactics, maybe you are used to doing something on a certain boss, but the other guy isnt. If content will be hard, this could be important. Nothing is wrong with spending 5 minutes moving there, maybe getting some world pvp on the way. Dont like world pvp? Roll on a PvE server.
  7. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    You only got the rewards if you completed the run. That said, I wouldn't mind if queueing itself in an LFD system didn't offer additional rewards. The dungeon's loot itself ought to be good enough. Instead they could just leave a bonus loot reward at the end of all dungeons regardless of whether or not the group was preformed or not.
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  8. Anoteros

    Anoteros Cupcake

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    exactly.

    also why is WoW the subject of discussion all of a sudden? -_-
  9. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    Well it was sort of part of the OP. He mentioned comments made by Blizz devs regarding upcoming changes to the game. That and LFD was a significant part of WoW's history so it intimately relates to this thread.
  10. BonusStage

    BonusStage Well-Known Cupcake

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    i think not having lfd is unreasanoble, but making it not being cross server might fix the concerns that people are against it.

    i only do isntances with guild mates, so it dosent affect me
    Mudfin likes this.
  11. Melons

    Melons New Cupcake

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    Yeah i know, but still im not a big fan of rewards just for doing an easy task. Like how Wow is today, you always get something in form of loot, gold etc etc, it takes a big part of the game away in my mind. I rather have some blacklisting of people who constantly leave groups, when a wipe or 2 occurs. Where after certain abuse, you get a message like "You are leaving dungeons too often, sort your <REDACTED> out or you will not be able to use the LFD tool for 2 weeks", or something a bit less harsh.
  12. Corruptdevil

    Corruptdevil Cupcake

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    Name an mmo where the majority of the player base isn't in the city when doing just end game content.
  13. Menchi

    Menchi Cupcake-About-Town

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    I don't really mind if the LFD is cross-server or not, I just don't want the instant teleports. That's really the only aspect of LFD that has a significant impact on the world.
  14. BonusStage

    BonusStage Well-Known Cupcake

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    Lineage 2
    Why do you think that there many of those.

    because no one has bothered to design end game content on the open world for a very long time.
    it is one the player base fault.
  15. kur1

    kur1 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Cite your source for where making content more accessible is the reason for its subscriber count falling? Really, please cite it.

    Cataclysm made 5-man content difficult again. It didn't boast massive growth for the game. Raids and dungeons at release were probably the most difficult they'd been since TBC.

    I'm going to go line-by-line and point out some fallacies, because you're linking the wrong causes to the wrong conclusions.

    WoW rarely nerfed dungeons or the like except in Cataclysm when they deemed it too difficult for random groups. Subscriber counts stayed steady or grew during the period difficult content became more accessible. The large reason WoW's subscription base grew in the 'earlier' days was because they were growing the actual MMO market. They were tapping gamers (and non-gamers) who never touched the genre before.

    LFD and accessible content are not the reasons for WoW's declining subscriber base. Rather, it's the game's age, fragmentation of people into other genres (much like people joined MMOs who never touched it before, gamers are shifting towards MOBAs), and the generation change among its playerbase (if you started playing at 15, you're now 25, and probably in your early career with much less time to dedicate to the game).

    If they want to pin their failure anywhere, it's not making content that brings ex-players back from MOBAs (maybe they like the 5v5 mentality, less buttons on bars, less time needed to complete a full competitive game, etc.) or failing to attract the newer 13-18 demographic.

    Aside from spending ~30 minutes begging around /1 and /2 for a group, or using some server-wide chat channel or crappy early LFG UI, how are players doing less? They're getting together and completing a dungeon. The only way dungeons aren't making players do more work is with CC.

    Unless you're doing Challenge Mode dungeons, where you need to form locally on a server / x-realm, your gear is limited, and CC/coordination is actually pretty important. But expecting an LFD group to lose their gear and do a CM? Yeah, try that and tell me how it goes.

    Blizzard acknowledged this and specifically made CMs that greatly punish you (because you'll lose Gold or Silver) for major mistakes.

    I'd say people blowing through content has less to do with skill in dungeons, and more with how much a player outgears content. It's hard to keep things challenging with upgrades dropping. Unless you limit the ilvl you go into an instance with. In which case why would you even care about upgrades if you're artificially ilvl-capped?

    They tell their playerbase when they're not good enough frequently. Their data was pretty clear from Cataclysm that random, non-buffed groups that needed to CC, perform kicks/interrupts, and get out of 1-shot ground mechanics led to a 50%+ group disband rate and greatly impacted the quality of play for a lot of people. Dungeons were avoided until nerfs happened, or players greatly outgeared the content.

    At the same time, raids were kept at their initial difficulty well into the patch and progression was fairly slow on a lot of bosses. People who wanted raiding challenges got it. People really liked 5.0/5.1's raiding content, variety, and difficulty.

    Blizzard brought back 5-man difficulty with CMs, which offered more rewards and challenge but required you form your own groups and made your way to the instance. Viola, both camps satisfied.

    Note that during this at no point did Blizzard get scared about telling their playerbase they weren't good enough where the content warranted it. But people weren't even grouping for dungeons. People just stopped playing because it wasn't a fun experience. Blizzard realized that getting players to play was better than having unused content and people burnt out on alts/dailies.

    Again, what are you basing this conclusion on, concretely?
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  16. kur1

    kur1 Cupcake-About-Town

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    What's wrong with instant teleports when there's 5 random people coming together? Isn't the intent of a game to play the game, not cruise through the air for 5+ minutes to actually do something?

    Agreed there should be necessary travel time for pre-formed groups. Disagree travel time is necessary for someone doing a random queue (you're already disadvanted in not knowing your group comp, party skill, where they're queueing from, whether your party has the ability to summon, etc.).

    I can see this is a philosophical difference (playing the game vs. experiencing the world's size), but both groups of players need to be catered to.
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  17. BonusStage

    BonusStage Well-Known Cupcake

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    I Agree, you make sense.

    but the thing is that if the game structure is similar to WoW, LFD removes the need of leaving town, completely.

    this should not happen, there should be reasons for everyone, at all levels, to leave, multiple reasons, not just to farm ore and herbs.

    as long as there are reasons to keep people outside of the towns as much as there is for them to stay inside the towns, teleport , queus, and LFD's do not hurt the game world.
    kur1 likes this.
  18. kur1

    kur1 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Elder Game just means "tuned end-game content that is built around an assumed set of criteria (gear level, player/group composition, other tune-able factors)". This definition can be gradient. Content shouldn't go from leveling -> heroic-level difficulty in all content.

    The player base abandoned 2+ hour 5-man dungeon crawls the minute better alternatives came around in WoW. I assume the same is true of other MMOs. There should be a progressive difficulty curve to get players into endgame. Making dungeons (or all "Elder Game" content) equally high in difficulty (or ludicrously long) will just create a massive player divide and hurt the game.

    Casual players will get stuck doing grindy, repetitive daily quests or whatever low-difficulty / low-time-investment activities are offered and burn out on that quickly. Hardcore players will have a hard time finding new people to recruit into their guilds/groups as players will either fall into the casual camp (no gear, no experience doing difficult content) or are in the Hardcore minority and likely guilded elsewhere.

    Both scenarios lead to players leaving the game because there's no progressive ramp-up in difficulty (and this kind of tuning is only really possible at end-game where they have defined plans on how players will gear/play). Please don't make everything challenging. Make a good, progressive mix.
  19. Melons

    Melons New Cupcake

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    So moving in the world is not playing the game? The game is what the devs make it out to be. You completely empty out the world when you have playerse teleporting everywhere they go. And since the dungeons are intented to be hard, having 5 minutes to talk about some tactics or whatever, might just do good.

    Touching on your post above this one. The problem with Wows content is that its the same thing over and over. Oh you did SM while you leveled up, here is the heroic version, oh look here, go do SM CM when you feel ready for it. Not to mention 3 types of every raid. Nothing feels fresh anymore.
    Milamilou likes this.
  20. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    Not quite, I'm saying we do not need to go to extremes. Removing a LFG chat channel would also be an extreme, so no need to do that. We should have a LFG channel, as well as all the other chat channels.

    We just need to look at party forming as a whole. How do we form parties? What are the problems with each system? The advantages? If we can figure those out, then we can figure out a better system.

    LFG channels
    + you can chat to people before forming the groups, ask some questions ("have you tanked this before?")
    + you can be very specific when forming groups (Need healer, but must be female Aurin, and single!!)
    + groups are always same server groups (reputation matters).
    - you had no idea who is listening (you may need a tank, but no tanks may be in channel)
    - no idea if listeners are interested at all (there may be tanks listening, but they do not want to run X dungeon)
    - can be very spammy (I mean, really... Same person spamming they are looking for a tank for 1hr can get tiring for everyone)
    - Not very efficient. May get a group quick, or no group at all.

    LFG tool (lets say like the WoW tool)
    + very efficient, can get groups quickly and painlessly
    + Auto-port can save time
    - Auto-port can also make the world smaller, or make the game feel like a "lobby" game.
    - it forces group creation, you have no idea who you get (could be an expert, or a newbie)
    - could be people from other servers you'll never see again (or players not worried about reputation)
    - streamlines grouping, so dungeons are just dungeons. No social interaction is needed at all.

    This is a quick list, I'm sure there are more pros and cons for each, but this is just a quick example. So what we want, is a system that can give us as many pros of each system. and avoid as many cons as possible.

    So we need a tool where we can list ourselves as interested players (healer, interested in X, Y, Z dungeons, have ran them before, can lead), it can also show us what parties re forming up, what other players are interested, and we can go from there. Forced grouping is bad idea in my mind, so the tool should just list the groups forming, and who is interested, and leave the party forming up to the player. You should be able to choose if you want same server, or x-server listings as well.

    It may seem like a step back on what WoW has, but WoW LFG just offers far too many features that are not really needed, and I think it breaks some things in the process. Anyway, typed too much already. We need a NEW system. WoW system does not work well, and LFG chat channels are not efficient. So we need something new and different.
    Xlugon Pyro likes this.

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