Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by CRB_Gortok, May 31, 2013.
hehe cirk i can live with that so go on go on and amuse me
I think every pre-launch MMO community is fairly fragmented, because everyone hopes that it will be the "perfect" MMO that does all the things they like and none of the things they don't, and everyone has a different view of what those things are. The more the game promises (and this game promises a lot) the more people hope for. I can't speak to the EQ3 community, I didn't even know that was a thing until last week, and I didn't really get into the GW2 "community" until at or just after launch and was mostly just watching trailers and youtube videos before that, but from what I gather a lot of people had huge misconceptions about what GW2 would be, and it really flavored their responses. They lost a lot of players right up front who were more used to GW1's story driven, heavily instanced "lobby MMO" feel, and who knows how many of those stuck around. That isn't disastrous though, at least those people gave it a shot, and the ones that stuck around enjoy the game for what it is.
I expect the same thing to happen with Wildstar, there will be plenty of people who play it, go "this isn't what I wanted" and leave, but if Carbine does their job right, plenty more will like what it is and continue playing.You literally can't please everyone, so you just target the biggest group possible and hope for as many other players to jump on as you can get.
First of all, if you want to talk purist, D&D the original game was full of imperfect skills that were based off of all sorts of wacky stats. There was min/maxing to an extent but it wasn't what your considering. That's as pure as RPG gets, you can argue all you want for anything else, but if it doesn't follow the original D&D ruleset it's not "pure." If you want traditional D&D rulesets, we should have rogues that need strength to do more damage, dexterity to hit (esp. with OH weapons) and sneak/do many roguey abilities, charisma for some attacks or abilities, constitution if you want to take an attack ever, wisdom and int to be useful in dungeons.
Have you seen the ruleset for D&D 4th edition? This gets way towards the min/max stats thing to simplify them. There's a reason even the most pure RPG has changed... The reason is, it's more fun that way. Just because it's not like the good old days, doesn't mean it's not better. Sure change is always resisted and not always good, but if you never change you never can improve. Unless you're stating that Vanilla WoW, EQ 1, and EQ 2 are perfect, they need changes. Also, if you're saying they're perfect, why are you not playing them (at least EQ2)?
So, you say to make a successful game that everyone's going to play, you need to make raiding like EQ1, EQ2 and Vanilla WoW... but more people played during Burning Crusade. I get that you don't like the feel of BC as much as vanilla but claiming that it's not going to attract more people, I don't understand...
Wait you don't like Wildstar's gear system because it makes you think about your gear and "work" on it after you get it, and you don't want a system which "just hands out gear." You want to have to work for your gear, but not have to think about it in other words. Seems a little ironic and hypocritical to me... but ok...
Correct me if I'm wrong but your sentiments seem to say "I want people to have to work for their gear, and the rewards be amazing regardless of what happens after that."
I think players should get an advantage from looking at their gear, and figuring out how to make it best perform. This rewards the players for playing smarter and being more dedicated.
It's because they know the developers are listening, and will make changes to the game based on what the community wants. They're not going to make systems which just hand over rewards for no effort though. This game is going to take in noobs and spit out elitists (paraphrasing JG). This means all the arguments about "Well... what if the system's too complicated for a noob." The answer becomes simple, "too bad learn to play better, and you'll appreciate the system in place, stop being a drain on your group and pull your own weight." This means the community is going to have to bond together to take shelter from the mighty Carbine devs, who have thrown the gauntlet down with their raiding. (I feel like I should end this paragraph with a "HUAH!")
Have you played MoP raiding? It's pretty good, as long as you ignore LFR. Yes I'd agree the community is pretty caustic at this point due to entitled pricks, but Wildstar's not going to cater to them either. I don't understand why you're so against this loot system if you're so for people working for their rewards? That's all it does, people who put forth a little more effort than reading a bloody webpage and copy/pasting to their character, the ones that spend some time testing to make sure they are gearing correctly, will perform better. That's all.
You want your weapon as soon as you get it. That's "easy and now." I'm not saying make the content easier, you're still gonna have to work for your upgrades.
As long as the solo content is hard, and makes you work for your rewards, this should be less of an issue. Just because you don't have to stand around town trying to form a group or starting up your own raid, doesn't mean the content can't be challenging. I'm hoping solo content ends up feeling like a really hard platformer game, where there's a smattering of combat, and jumping, and puzzles and whatnot in it, and maybe 70% of the community beats 95% of it, but that last 5% makes you want to cry. That is unless you want to wait for the next tier, when you'll have slightly better gear to try come at it again. It means you can have it easy(er) or you can have it now, but not both.
Those proc's can also be in chips. What if we told you that chips were enchantments, and you just get gear with random enchantments on them that could be swapped out by your friendly enchanter? Would that make you happier? It's the same thing afterall. You're given a base thing that can't be changed (the schematic) and you modify it to make it more favorable (the chips) same thing. The idea is the chips are varied enough to allow players to be very specific in how they play. Roles in raids are going to be really niche type roles, because you have 40 people, and enough gear drops to supply 40 people. If you have everyone as the exact same build and rely on RNG to give out specified gear, they'll never get geared. This helps with that RNG, so you don't have to down a boss 100 times to get that one piece you've been waiting for, only to be outrolled by Dave... yah no one likes Dave...
Worst game design ever! You want something that you can earn early on which negates all rewards later. So you want your reward now from relatively easier content. That goes against your anti-"easy and now" statement earlier. No, having amazing random drops from dungeons feels arbitrary, reward players mainly on skill and minorly on luck, not minorly on skill and mainly on luck.
EQ1 and WoW brought people together because it was hard, make Wildstar hard! I agree with that. The rest of your argument is very contradicting to earlier statements you've made. Also, you don't want a game that appeals and pleases everyone! A lot of people like WoW now, you don't. People are different. Instead make a game you like, that you think is awesome, (if you're a gamer) and then trim and tailor based on other ideas which work. Then, test it with a crowd of outsiders and listen to those outsiders!
If players in beta testing the raid stuff, say "Man this loot system's really bad, I hate the feel of it" change it then. No game has come out which implements all the systems which are contained in Wildstar in one game. You have to think how Wildstar could be cool, not how similar it is to the games you've played in the past. Let go of them, you clearly aren't forgetting that you have to grind up skills like weapons, because whacking on a mob with a brand new axe you got for hours was fun... Or training swimming in EQ... The old raid systems are gone, and if you want a game that's those games, find a server that's still running vanilla WoW, they still exist (albeit illegally), and join up with that.
Don't make the same game that's already been made and then shut down. If it was that great it'd still be running. If Wildstar does re-make EQ in space, then you have a game that cannot sustain itself and fails, regardless of EQ Next coming out, or Camelot Unchained.
Lulz... mah bad! But hey, I turned you! If it worked once it can work again...?
Or, you know, they can just play something else instead. Nothing is forcing the average player to play a game that clearly does not want them and Wildstar can survive off their "hardcore" community of 50K players or so. Presumably.
I think it is simple enough. Raid drops are going to be about getting higher power budget and usable lock stats for your need rolls, great single unlocked chips for your chip rolls, and all others for your greed.
is just not going to be a lot of throwing the gear on immediately once obtained.
Actually I think you'll have crafters making gear which is chippable for raiding, to help supplement you to get the better gear on faster. It won't be as good as chips from raid gear, but it'll be enough to get you going.
I'll let JG tell you himself why there won't be "average" players in Wildstar. They'll be turned into good players that log on less.
Because frankly I don't think you'll accept anyone saying it came from him... Listen specifically for "We're like a sausage grinder that takes newbs and turns them into elitists."
I get confused with some of your responses because you completely misinterpret what I am attempting to describe. My idea of a perfect game is EQ1 with updated graphics, action combat, achievements, EQ2 style crafting, collections, and most of the modern bells and whistles that even EQ2 doesn't have. What I want the game to keep is EQ1's reliance on the community to advance and have fun. It was an incredibly social game where reputation mattered big time. I loved the competitiveness of open world dungeons and raiding. I loved how hard it was to camp a named mob just for a very small chance at a rare drop that could change your game play experience.
EQ1 was, by far, the hardest game I've ever seen. When you say I want things handed to me now, and I don't want to work for something, I'm literally dumbstruck. You never played EQ1 extensively, that's clear. It's very, very difficult to describe to you what that game was and how it made people feel when it was in its heyday from 1999-2005 or so.
I also think WoW at launch was pretty darn good with its raiding and itemization. It was a very hard game at launch. Elite quests were everywhere. Nobody had gear, you had to run the end game dungeons to raid, and MC and BWL were extremely hard. And they have you loot that changed your character. One of my favorite raid loots from early WoW was from Onyxia and it was an offhand spellbook that allowed you to summon a skeleton pet for a minute or two. I got this on a mage and it was just so much fun for PvP and pulling out at in game socials.
I'm not sure you understand what I'm looking for, and it's probably my fault for not explaining it well enough. But I like hard games. I don't want gear handed to me ever, I want to work and camp and spend weeks or months acquiring a piece of gear, but when I get it, I want it to be worth all that time investment. And that's why I am in THIS thread. I'm worried Wildstar won't have gear rewards like that. I'm fairly certain this game won't have loot that was as hard to get as most of the gear in EQ1. Challenge isn't the issue. But I'm worried when I get the gear in Wildstar, it won't be fun. It won't be amazing. It won't give me new abilities to tinker with. It will be just like SWToR, which was boring and tedious.
That's the thing. Nobody has come into this thread and said they liked SWToR's loot system or dynamic. They've all disliked it. Now, most have tried to differentiate Wildstar's system from SWToR, while I keep saying it's the same thing (because it is). There is zero doubt that part of the reason SWToR failed was because of how they did their loot and itemization. Hopefully Wildstar won't make that same mistake. That's all I'm hoping for. And in my opinion, to not make that mistake, they should base their loot system and itemization on games that were extremely strong in that regard, namely EQ1, EQ2, and WoW. That's all.
hmmm my 2 cents: the hardest part about Itemization in an MMO is the balance to keep all 3 different factions in an mmo happy.
There are the 50 % Casuals/non raiders who do not care about min/max, who play for fun and all that matter to them is there solocontent AND that the itemskins they can wear look good. The Stats on that items don t matter much for them as long as they are able to decently fast kill their mobs. Wildstars model of itemization greatly favours these folks playstyle as far as i understand it till now.
Then there are the 49% of players who raid but are due to certain circumstances not able to beat the majority of the raiding content, only to beat certain bosses and get certain loot. 10 % of those 49% are happy with what they can achieve and so the itemization of Wildstar favours these people too.
But then there are the 39 % of raiders who raid and WANT to be the best but cannot be the best due to certain circumstances, but are highly jealous of the 1 % hardcore raiders that achieve everything and are the best of the best. They want to be the top but are not able to achieve it.
Those 39% of the playerbase are the problem in every mmo there is with raiding and itemization. Cause they demand to get everything they not deserve. those are the ones mostly QQin on forums etc etc. and unfortunatly those who will get heard the most from the devs...... Even those would greatly benefit from the wildstar itemization ... but those are against it CAUSE they see themselfs as the 1 % hardcore elitst players even if they aren t.... and the real 1% hardcore raiders are really the only ones that don t get what they want from this itemization model cause the devs have to find a way to somehow balance the items and so they have to compromise.
If those 39% wannabehardcore raiders wouldn t exist the question about itemization wouldn t even be an issue. the 1 % Elitist raiders would have their BIS items and the rest would be cool with what they get.
But greed and jealousy are a part of human nature, and every competition or game has for 90% of the population on earth just one function ... to show that i am better then the rest. whoever says something else is deceiving himself. The slogan "to be part of it" from the olympic games is an illusion. ALL of the competitors go there to win nothing else. The seond place is the first looser and noone wants to be a looser.
So the Devs of an MMO have to compromise and have to try to make most of the players of their game happy. So if i m Dev and i have to decide to make 1 % hardcore raider happy or 50 % casual gamers and 10 % raiders + am able to achieve tho convince those 39% wannabe raiders that they are truly amazing and those think they are the 1 % elitist raiders then sorry real 1 % hardcore raiders you loose .... i let you do the world/server first kills and you can show those to the community and bragg in town but you will not get the legendary items to show your skill cause i have to give those to the 39% wannabes too....
10 Years ago there was EQ1 and the devs of those games cared NOTHING about the players. they did what they wanted and not what the playerbase demanded. they could cause there was no game that was competible. Today every game has to fight for its players and player demands have to be satisfied to certain lvls or the players leave for another game. In my opinion the real 1 % hardcoreraiders are almost extinct by now cause there is no content for them anymore. Those raids today are for the 39% wanabes cause 39% is a big number of players that pay cash for the illusion to be "elite" among the players in a game.
just my 2 cents anyway......
ps. my origin is not the english language so please forgive me my many errors
Yeah... that's not gonna happen... Not even close... Have you by any chance checked out EVE (Minus the bit about action combat of course)? From what I've heard it sounds pretty much the same, in that it's your hardcore open world PVEVP type feel.
I get what you're saying, that you want something that's ridiculously hard to get, but once you get it, it's good to go, it's just good, no more thought put in it. Sure you might have to kill something over and over to get the drop you want, and compete with others to do so, but once you've got it, you are unbeatable. I know the feeling I played SWG, that was similar, you had to get a group of 80 players to harvest krayt dragon pearls, this was a really cool experience the thing was on like a 7 hour spawn timer or something like that and was necessary for crafters to make things at the highest quality (gear was crafted by players which was somewhat random as the particular stats in this game, and the better materials and better the crafter the better the piece was). So you had to go get 80 players to go get a chance at pearls which were just a PIECE of what you needed to even start your journey towards an awesome weapon. The next step of course was finding the best crafter on the server to make it for you, which would take a day or more depending on if they had mats ready, had a backorder of people wanting gear from them, etc. And yes this was all in open world, so you had to fight off the enemy players while trying to get the mob.
Now THAT was intense and ridiculous. You not only had to do these crazy things to try to get gear, but you had to find someone to craft it afterward! Really neat feeling to the community because you not only knew the raiders but the crafters on the server. Oh right, did I mention if you died/fought/used gear, your items would lose durability over time? This meant that you had to get new gear crafted when it was done. Did I also mention that this was true for mounts which had health, and were destroyable, and expensive? That's something I realize will never come back, as it's like a second job to play that game. That's not what modern MMO's should be. Though Carbine seems to be taking some of the good from SWG crafting and bringing it into Wildstar. The actual crafting wouldn't be there unless there was no gear dropped at all of course, to bring back that completely player built economy feel that any fan of SWG wants. I'm fine with that though. Take what you can get from Wildstar, or you're going to be dissapointed.
Also, don't even get me started on what you had to do to unlock the Jedi class in that game...
EQ1 sounds similar to SWG, except the "casual" bit that lets you just get gear randomly when it dropped. It feels neat, but it's just nostalgia, if they actually did the same system again, it'd be completely broken, and feel completely broken.
In actuality if you recreated EQ1 and then brought in the hardcore raiders that are amazingly skilled with the action combat tear through the content, then camp out all of the bosses on the server. Then no one else gets any gear ever. Mob camping is a terrible mechanic for the overall community of a game, it really is. It means the players who are on the longest at the beginning win, and no one else has a chance.
In other words, this type of game shouldn't be a AAA MMO, with forward thinking systems and a limited action set. I don't think you want Wildstar, based on everything I've heard about Wildstar. Everything's going to be challenging and intricate and take a lot of effort to understand and it's based more on skill and challenge than reward. And the only mob camping would be for an open world PVP incentive if it exists.
I read this as "I liked going in, doing some awesome content, and then going into some other content, and being OP." I like the fact that Wildstar is putting in Elo ratings for competitive PVP, so players are constantly challenged. It feels especially dumb and arbitrary if you can go do raiding and then all of the sudden be the best in PVP.
There's other ways to reward this other than gear... for one trophies for your house. That was the coolest part of SWG, that you'd get some junk off of some really hard to kill mob, but it would look really cool on your wall. It was a useless grey, but you could put it on your wall and show it off to people. Or have like a rancor skin rug, or like guard's vibroblades crossing over from Jabba's palace. I think trophies for your player house would be even better than gear, because gear you're just gonna replace next tier anyway, so who cares, but trophies on your wall in your house is a story.
Your claim is that "no itemization system was good except EQ1, EQ2, and vanilla WoW." This is a very rare argument, most say that current WoW's gear is fine and the raiding is good. Community is bad, in a lot of places, but the gear and raiding content is really good. You're the first person that I've ever heard say "Raiding in BC was <REDACTED>!" I'm saying I deeply hope for anything other than something that rewards you at random with uber-powerful, game breaking gear. I think SWG had the best economy of any game I've ever seen that worked really well, but it's gone and never coming back, and I don't expect it to. It's not really a sustainable business model. You have to be realistic. I personally want a gear system you have to work for your gear and then have it perfectly tailored, and there's a chance it's going to not work out so you have to do it again.
Gear's a temporary solution anyway, always gonna get changed out eventually, that's the point of it. I think trophies and costume sets do this much better, where you had to earn some crazy achievement and it gives you a non-combat pet. I don't doubt they're going to put things that are just cool in the game, but they won't be attached to raiding, because raiding's going to be purposefully exclusive. I hope as well they do some awesome open world content to promote pvp and activity in the world that takes a huge group of players to accomplish.
In short, what you've described sounds like a huge blunder of a system, and not actually fun. It sounds like it would give you a good feeling and a feeling of accomplishment, but not actually fun. Something where you aim for a piece of gear that just breaks your class, you don't even have to pay attention anymore. I watched a couple of EQ2 raiding vids today to try to get an idea what it was about, it looked uninteresting and not engaging, I also noticed that multiple players were "clickers" which says a lot to me... Now, I can't speak that this is truth, just what I observed, if you can point me in the direction of a couple raid videos that would show me that my view is incorrect, let me know and I'll take a second look at it.
I went ahead and liked that post Gryf because I agreed with most of it. I think you're a little off on the 39%, or maybe a little harsh (probably because I fall in that group), but overall I thought you had some good points.
I agree with your numeric breakdown actually, that sounds about right to me. I think the 1% thing is a myth though. Even as far back as EQ1, there were far more than 1% of the population in the elite guilds at the cutting edge of content. I would actually lump your 1% and the 39% all together. Sure, there is a percentage within that 40% that can raid more hours and achieve more, but for the most part, that's your hardcore raiding group. I think it's a pretty big number, and I don't think it should be differentiated from the 1%.
I do agree there are some "wannabe" raiders in that group, but I think if they fall under such a moniker, it's because of real life time constraints. If we want to try and label the 1% as retirees, the unemployed, or college kids, that's one thing, but I think the important thing in the play style and the goals. If you're trying to appeal to those that raid, than that's that. I wouldn't break them up into subgroups based on play availability. I just label that 40% as raiders. They want to reach the end game as fast as they can, and then they expect the "real" game to start.
This 40% is where games have failed as of late. The casuals and soloers have had a ton of recent MMOs made almost just for them. From Rift to SWToR to GW2. Even WoW and EQ2 have turned into casual friendly games over time. Casuals and soloers are not going to make the difference for an MMO. There's too much competition and their loyalty is often not much, they jump to the new thing for a few months. The only thing that keeps people playing MMOs for multiple years is the social aspect and friends they make in the game. Casual and solo based MMOs as of late have shown they can't retain players because they don't foster a community that depends on each other, thus getting to know one another and forming relationships that transcend the game.
As for being the best on the server and all that, I'm not overly concerned with that. I just don't want to experience SWToR's loot system all over again. It was that bad. I have nightmares about the grind for modifiers. And I still have disappointment over how bad the raid drops were for the time invested.
I still point to Everquest 1 for how loot was done right. There were fun items that anyone could camp if they wanted to spend the time. Items that gave levitate, or SoW, or underwater breathing, etc... Things useful always. Definitely worth the time sink. I'm not sure Wildstar will have utility or fun items like that. Every class had access to start their Epic weapon quests, they just needed lots of friends, luck, and time to complete it. As for dungeons and raids, it was the same thing. If you invested the time at a camp, and you had some friends and luck, you had a chance at a great reward. Warcraft is what started this epic and legendary item stuff, and I'm not a fan of that at all. In Vanilla WoW, epics were rare and well...epic. That's how it should be, and WoW didn't cater to the 1%, they catered to the 40% that wanted to raid and experience end game. It's only as time went on, and the casuals started complaining that they should have access to all the content and get gear enough to compete against the hardcores that WoW dumbed down the game and started the entire welfare epic system. I think you're placing blame in the wrong direction as to who cried the most and made the developers change their game (for the worse, most people agree).
and this same quote has been said about 40man raids, about making content hard, about long involved single player rpg's, the list goes on. You say these and many other quotes as if you speak for all gamers and all developers. A game with hard 40man raids will never come back....until somebody makes one.
All of the above is assuming the content's easy enough to down. But this is not the case. Certain bosses will still drop certain pieces of gear, so you can't for instance get what's meant to be on the last hardest boss of the hardest raid from the one at the beginning. Since there's one level of raiding in Wildstar (which is "hard mode") you will get a gear progression on players that are half completed for the ones that got half the content down, and a couple pieces for those in the 10% which are happy. Solo content gear will be even worse stats than that 10%, but will be similar to dungeon gear. But the solo content should be at least as challenging as the dungeon because of this.
Although I think the challenge of Wildstar dungeons is closer to that of normal raids in WoW (by that I mean slightly harder than) and Raiding in Wildstar is equivalent to Heroic Raiding in WoW right now. (Or possibly slightly harder on both counts.)
In Wildstar the 1% will have all the pieces of raid gear, the lesser raiders will not, or if they do, it won't be until later tiers are released.
Wildstar has said they're taking "noobs" and turning them into "elitists," in other words, they're going to train players to be better and expect challenge, sure it may be fun at the same time, but it'll also teach them to be a more skilled players. This should help reduce the entitlement, due to players realizing that they have to progress through the game.
Legendaries shouldn't be needed by the ultimate raiders to show their skill, their skill should show the ultimate raider's skill... Their armor should look freaking sweet, but it only has to be properly tuned for the content they're on. Just because they beat the content and are the best doesn't mean they should receive imbalanced items that makes content just fall over for the rest of the tier or expansion or game.
Sounds like they made a game that wasn't fun and had to shut it down. There's a difference between "selling out" and making a good game with good content. WoW has managed to do both. It's got some of the most challenging raiding around today (as heroic modes) which is hailed by some truly skilled players, at the same time the rest of the game has sold out to support the content for those few. Your points seem to point out that the games have failed due to not giving the playerbase what they wanted, there's a reason for that... The reason EQ1 lasted as long as it did was due to lack of competition, this is a weak argument... You've basically stated that "If you want your game to truly be for the hardcore, you're going to have to be willing to admit it's going to fail and be shut down."
Hopefully I understood what you were saying here correctly. I agree that Wildstar should have content for the hardcore, and the content should be hard, like really hard, but there should be SOME content for the less skilled players. Just because your game is full of people who don't have the time/energy/resources whatever to play the game as much as a hardcore skilled player, doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to play the game. In fact these people will be paying the majority of the bills at Carbine. Instead welcome these people, and force them to become better players, so they can appreciate the content that WAS created for the hardcore. Instead of saying "Oh, you're not a hardcore player now? Well you'll never be one." Say, "Oh, you're not a hardcore player now? Well, go play the other content, eventually you'll be able to do some stuff with us, and we can maybe eventually have you join our group." Give them a path to become excellent, don't just shun them at the door. This means otherwise the hardcore players have to pay all of Carbine's bills, and if you want to personally fund a game that's going to cater to a small portion of players, feel free to do so yourself, don't insist it on others who have already a fully formed business model which is reasonable.
I saw that interview, I just don't believe that it actually works in practice. The "sausage grinder" approach just results in more pink slime left on the floor.
You can't turn every player into a AAA expert player, plenty just aren't capable of it, plenty that are just don't care to do the work, and that's ok, because this is a game, not Rosetta Stone. Of course you always want to "train your gamers," by having simple mechanics at low levels and gradually add new mechanics, and the challenges that require them, but this process can only go so far, every player has some point at which they can't easily advance to the next challenge, and some people are driven to keep trying, while plenty of others just ok "not for me" and move on.
Good point, but I doubt it'll be made again exactly as it was. The reason is, it did fail as a game overall (got shut down) though it was very fun, and had a good community. So, it's unreasonable to expect that it be brought back. In that I've let it go, not that it won't ever happen again. I don't use previous MMO's to compare other MMO's to, otherwise I'll always be disappointed. Instead I look at it and play it and say "is this fun, do I enjoy this?" If the answer is no, then I stop playing, if not then I continue playing.
Edit: I didn't mean to sound like I was speaking for all gamers and developers, just toward Mat'hir.
Well, if you really loved SWG that much, you're going to really love EQ3. They are bringing it all back. So, that theory of yours that particular style of gameplay won't be a huge hit will be put to the test. Soon. Reveal is August 2nd. Launch should be at the end of the year or early 2014. I expect that will be the game that changes the industry. A lot of people do.
You're still not understanding the loot from EQ1 though. It wasn't about power, it was about awesomeness. Levitation didn't make me all that more powerful, but it gave me a new way to play my class and travel. Underwater breathing didn't make me all that more powerful, but it allowed me to explore more. Run speed gear didn't make me more powerful, it allowed me to travel faster. Instant invis didn't help me on a fight at all, but it let me explore more. The gear was fun. And you could use it until you quit the game. It was never about power, it was about being awesome and worth the time investment. Illusion masks, another awesome example that allowed you to explore enemy cities, but didn't really make the game easier. These were items that people LOVED. Not for power, but for utility and fun.
WoW drops now are all about gear score and power. And that's why that community sucks. EQ1 loot was about flavor and exploration. The prestige in having one of these rare drops that gave you this super cool ability, that might have been completely useless other than being freaking awesome to have and show off. EQ2 stuck with this theme as well. Now, there were some powerful drops as well, like the haste belts and the Cloak of Flames I like to cite, but they were ungodly rare and off the bosses of the game at that point in time. But yeah, that's the thing with EQ loot. The fun stuff never got swapped out. And most of the haste items didn't either. Not for years.
And the thing about open world mobs is that they were on a week long timer. It was random when they spawned after that. No guild is going to be able to camp one mob for a week plus. Not when there are other mobs that require the same attention. WoW had this with their open world dragons. The guilds that can defeat that content will split it all up. I'm not remotely worried about open world competition. It worked fine then, and it would work fine now. The server population wouldn't change that much. And it would make loot harder to get a million times over. But as people do get it, they move on to other goals, and new people step in. It's never ending. And with the first expansion, the top guilds move up, while the guilds that were only occasionally getting the raid mobs start landing them on a more consistent basis. Who knows if that comes back. I hope it does. That competition for the top raid mobs in the game is what makes up most of the fondest memories for EQ vets. I don't consider someone a hardcore raider unless they experienced what it was like to steamroll another 100+ guild (or get steamrolled) for Avatar of War, etc... That's hardcore raiding. Getting calls from your guildleader at 3AM to wake up and raid because Emperor popped. And doing so gladly even though you had to work in the morning. That's hardcore raiding.
If you want to talk about challenge and working your ass off to receive loot. It's EQ1 by a mile over every game ever made. And if at the end of the day that loot would have sucked like SWToR's loot and possibly Wildstar's, nobody would have kept playing. But it didn't. It was worth it.
Wildstar is wanting to make hard raids. I'm saying their loot better be worth it. Or people won't do it. And SWToR's loot system will not work.
Simply don't let the ones that can't learn or won't learn progress. That's fine, they have no reason to. They'll probably quit the game, and that's fine too, they would have been a burden on a group later on, which is good for no one. You seem to think these people who are stubborn and refuse to get better at the game or listen to anyone will be good for the game. They aren't, they just aren't. Not even for their money, don't put them in there. If they can learn to get better and eventually appreciate the harder content in the game, great, if not, whatever, that's fine. If you're likely to quit at things, you're going to quit anyway, why be rewarded for doing "nothing special" and just going through something that's not a challenge. Great you sat in front of your computer for a few hours and watched colors go by, here's an epic!
Either way I know you'll never agree with me, because you never agree or compromise with anyone in any of the threads here. Not even the Chief Executive Staff at Carbine.
i know what you mean but i cannot agree compleatly with it. Remember Wow vanilla Nexramas 40 raid ??? Remember Patchwork ? at the beginning the percentage of players that could beat him was about 1 guild at most 2 guilds on the server. Thats more like the 1 % of hardcore raiders then the 40%. Of course Patchwork was fassioned as a "cockblocker boss". Means the ini bosses weren t all implemented and it was not meant that this boss is beatable in any way. But it was and only the best of the best were able to do it and pose with there new T3 shoulder items in Ironforge or Ogrimar. Not to mention you had to kill BWL bosses to get to the labratory for the Titanflasks for without those Patchwork was not even tryable. So i still claim there is a 1 % real hardcore raiders or ok lets say 5% .....but the rest ..... wanabes ... oh and btw i count myself not to those 1 % nor the 39 %. but i was in both factions in the past but i guess it comes with the RL age that i got calmer and now im in the 10 % that raid but are happy with what they can achieve .
If that's the case, Wildstar should definitely not try to just "come out with EQ3 before EQ3 comes out" and instead keep truckin on the road they're on. I really don't think it'll attract a lot of players, but I think it'll be successful (in that enough players to sustain a healthy community and be profitable.)
There's gonna be that, but it's going to be in mounts. Flying mounts are going to act differently, it's been speculated that some of them will be gliders or various other things. So... there will be awesome, just not attached to raiding. I think they'll have things that are utility for fun in the game, just not attached to raiding.
Fair enough, that's why I brought up trophies for achievements in raiding. It's neat to have it on you and all, but it's much cooler if you can go get something from it at your house, and interact with it there. BTW other players can visit your player house. I wouldn't doubt it if they have neat little nic nacs that you can carry with you for something interesting.
Still sounds terrible, standing around for hours hoping a mob spawns, and I don't want a call at 3 AM to tell me a raid boss had spawned. I don't want to not even have a chance ever at attaining an awesome piece of gear because I haven't devoted my life to a game. I think the idea is neat, and the feeling is neat, but it's overall not worth it. I really just don't want that, it sounds kinda terrible. I understand that sounds casual, but having to drop whatever you're doing for a game (including sleeping before work) is terrible for priorities. There's jobs which many people could die if someone were to do this, and those people do play these games.
So, you just want it so your gear can do cool effects that are utility based and in no way can aid you in combat? Perhaps it gives you a black aura you can activate, or an illusion or some other effect that wouldn't otherwise imbalance the game? Sure, I'd be down for that. But a lot of people want that, aesthetic awesomeness for raiding gear. Like undeniable aesthetic awesomeness.
Did they have enchants in EQ? If they did, same thing... You're just optimizing a piece of gear, that's all. Also, did they have sockets of any sort for gems or anything? Again, same thing. I think Wildstar's loot system sounds closer to SWG where you raid to get mats for your gear, then you work harder to make your gear awesome. I think that's a good feeling. It gives the smarter and more creative players a way to outperform the ones who simply play all the time. Intelligence and creativity should be rewarded.
Edit: Also, OMG, if we continue down this path we may actually come to an understanding and a compromise! You have been warned.
aham Blindsear i didn t say those quotes in your last post it was mat hir ...... but the post you made with my quotes i found out that you interpreted the thread from a completly different angle and so i have to say you understood me wrong. on the other side i have to say your angle of view of my post is not wrong either. So i guess i used the wrong words for what i meant sorry for that. i will think it over and try again....
A bit confused... but... you're forgiven? I assume I misunderstood what you meant, but my points are valid, and you'll make another attempt at giving your viewpoint?