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Level 50 Dungeon Item Examples

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by CRB_Gortok, May 31, 2013.

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  1. Gryf

    Gryf New Cupcake

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    @ mat hir : EQ1 was a different time with a different playerbase. it wouldn t work anymore. i played EQ1 for about 5 years or more. don t remember the Expansion i quited but it was the one after Ikkinz etc etc.... i know that it was realy hardcore then and nothing that came after was in its league till yet and i doubt anything will ever meet it ever... but its time is past. The concept of EQ1 wouldn t get a large enough playerbase for success. you will have to accept that fact and just remember the happy days.....

    I hope the raids in WS will get hard and STAY hard even if the comunity crys and i bet 100 Euro/$ that they will cry if they are toooooo hard. First signs i already see in the documentations of the Arcproject. they couldn t tell us anything new cause NDA but they told us that they played the first 5 man dungeon (lvl 20) and none of the groups that tryed them for 3 to 5 hours was able to complete the ini. Some groups couldn t even get past the trash mobs after the first boss.... now thats what i call challenging and i m looking forward to such dungeons but i doubt they will stay this way .... :(......

    you re absolutly right Blindsear :)
  2. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Right, but what you don't seem to understand is that that group outnumbers the remaining players a thousand to one. If they all leave, you don't get to play anymore either. They pay to keep your lights on.
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  3. BonusStage

    BonusStage Well-Known Cupcake

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    I Wish more people understood this.

    on a side note, i saw an interesting video regarding most of what is discussed on this forums.

    About people not knowing what they want, or knowing what they want but being ashemed of admiting they dont want something more refirend or hardcore.

    http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7405-Damn-Fine-Coffee

    i think it is worth a look, its a nice perspective on things.
  4. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    Lol...no, thats just miles off the mark...lol.
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  5. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I never said anything about it all being hard, but I'm ok with 95% of the player base beating 95% of the content, but that other 5% should still have something that challenges them. If it takes until the next tier for the 95% of the player base to get the gear to finally go finish that 5% of content from the previous tier, who's getting hurt by this? They then get 95% of the way through the new tier and again can't complete it, wait for next tier get some more gear and then go back to the previous tier and complete it. In the way of Solo Content, they've said to want to release at a pretty fast clip, like about every month, or possibly less.

    I don't want a hardcore game that everyone's gotta spend a million hours on and dedicate their life to the game. Also, that they simply can't progress in it or have things to do in the game. But if they're not willing or able to learn AT ALL, I'd say let em be social players sure, but don't hand them gear to tell them "It's ok, even though you're terrible at this game, here's a consolation prize for showing up!" If you want that type of game... Go to WoW, it's a good game, and it's already been made this way. There's no reason to go down that road again, because it still exists. Once WoW dies, then you can start attracting that crowd if you want... Otherwise competing with WoW is dumb, because WoW will just end up iterating the systems you made for your game, and there will be no reason to play the new game anymore.

    Also interesting video, but it seems to point to "Don't necessarily completely listen to the playerbase, sure they'll say things, and you should consider it, but if it doesn't fit with the game you have made with love and care, don't implement it." So... If Carbine wants to make a game that's hardcore, and designed around hardcore and they like it and love it and want some more of it, this guy's telling them to do that. I agree to this sentiment as well, that Carbine should read the forums, help direct the community towards things, but all in all, only listen to what they're saying if they can use that to tweak systems, not completely rip out systems and put in the old one's that are already in other games. That is until launch, post launch they should base their facts on statistics from the game, like... "are players using this how we expected, if not, how can we tweak it to make it more fun for the players who are using it, the way they are using it."

    Edit: BTW I do want really hard solo content, that I can play at my own pace if I'm not doing group content. I want a plethora of challenges, but if they don't come til the end of the content, that's fine by me. I'm willing to bend so that I can have my super extremely hard experience at some point later on, rather than insisting all the content be at my level. Players play at different levels, so there should be content of all sorts for all of those players. This doesn't mean make solo content easy, and then dungeons are harder and then raiding is even harder, if you want that, go to WoW, they've already got an up and running system that's pretty good. Community needs some work, I think, but the actual gameplay is pretty dang good...
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  6. Nemeses

    Nemeses Well-Known Cupcake

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    Yup

    No m8 he is bang on, its something that always get me is how narrow minded some people are they can not see this for themselves!
  7. Mat'hir Uth Gan

    Mat'hir Uth Gan Cupcake-About-Town

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    I actually watched that. I'm struggling a little bit applying it to the debates in this thread. I think he makes a ton of sense on all of his issues, a lot of it being common sense. Wildstar seems to be going in both directions though, making the majority of the game with passion because they want to make it, but also making a concerted effort to try and please all groups of gamers with content. I mean, the overriding themes are dual. We made a fun, quirky MMO based on what we wanted to do. But, we also want to appeal to every type of gamer. Casual and hardcore are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Group-oriented and solo-oriented are at opposite ends. There's no doubt they put some of this content in just to target a market, not so much because they wanted it for themselves. According to this guy, that is bad, because the general market doesn't know what they want. Which might be true, since recent MMOs have apparently targeted the casual crowd but completely failed to hook them, despite giving them all the game play features they requested.

    Me personally, I know exactly what I want to the tee. On the EQ3 forums, everyone wants what I want. It's pretty universal, we all want a modern day EQ1. We probably won't get it, but that's what we all want. Here, nobody wants that. They want....I actually don't know what people want on these forums. Everyone is divided. Nobody is clear and concise. The most common attitude is "We want whatever it is the Wildstar Devs create because so far everything sounds good and the videos have pizazz". Which, is pretty much fanboi-ism. Sometimes it works. It worked trusting the EQ1 and WoW Devs. It's pretty much failed with every other game, so the success rate on trusting the Devs to knock it out of the park simply because they are the Devs is pretty low. Especially within the last decade.

    The guy in the video suggests Devs just make the game they want to make without heavy reliance on public thought and opinion. The two most successful MMOs were created that way, though both much later started catering their game to public opinion. EQ2, to me, is the most notorious of this approach though. They completely ignored the beta testers all through beta about the problems of the game and what needed to be changed, and they launched a horrible game. Over the next three years they changed the game ENTIRELY to what the beta testers had suggested, and it became an awesome game. EQ2 is the only MMO I know that became ten times better as it aged. If they had listened to the beta testers then, who knows how the WoW/EQ2 competition would have turned out. WoW killed EQ2 then. I think EQ2 kills WoW now.

    Anyway, so I guess the lesson is everything is a gamble and there's really no way to know when to make a game from the heart and when to make a game to appeal to what the masses are clamoring for. And with Wildstar, I don't even know what the masses are clamoring for. The only thing I'm clamoring for with this game is not to use the horrific loot system and itemization from SWToR. But that should be common sense. Use a system as far away from that as possible.
  8. Mat'hir Uth Gan

    Mat'hir Uth Gan Cupcake-About-Town

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    I don't know what's happening. I've read some of your recent replies here and I find myself nodding and agreeing to most of them. I might be coming down with something. :)
  9. Gryf

    Gryf New Cupcake

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    hmmmm i don t know but somehow i have the feeling we get closer and closer with our opinions :) :) a new trend ???
  10. Mat'hir Uth Gan

    Mat'hir Uth Gan Cupcake-About-Town

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    The only reason I'm not onboard with his theory is that I've seen it not be true. It wasn't true in UO. It wasn't true in EQ1. It wasn't true in EQ2. All of those games are still pretty hardcore and still going strong. The thing about the hardcore crowd is that if you make something they love, they stay. It helps that there isn't a ton of competition out there anymore, and casuals/soloers have a lot with all the recent games, but it seems like the casual/soloer type floats from game to game.

    You reach a certain threshold multiple ways. If the game is casual/solo based like GW2, box sales are important because most people will leave. And their entire financial design was based on this. And it was smart and probably worked. Either EQ game currently still has a large number of people paying a $15 subscription each month (you almost have to unless you're a casual/soloer). EQ's been going 14 years, I think EQ2 is at 8 or 9. That's a ton of coin over time. GW2 will never make that much money, ever, but it wasn't designed to, and they were upfront about that. SWToR was made with an eye on the casual crowd and launched with enormous appeal and expectations and completely bombed. The loot/raids were poorly implemented for the hardcore, so they left quickly. The pvp was bad, so the pvp'ers left really quickly. But the game was a superb casual/solo player's dream. It had lore, story, a large amount of content that could be consumed at whatever pace, and most was soloable. The soloers finished the game and left. And most of the casuals seemed to leave as well, but I don't know why. It should have been a paradise for them.
  11. Gryf

    Gryf New Cupcake

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    hmmm i read somewhere that since SWTOR gone f2p they got over 2 million players again and are now second place behind wow in the western world... i try to find that article ....
  12. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Agreed with the bit about the video. Disagree that the community's largely divided. There are not many who want the game to be hardcore. All want challenging content. Some want it both for Solo and Raiding, others think it's impossible to make challenging solo content, due to it not having been done in many MMO's. A lot of players, once actually reading what Carbine has written support their game how they've made it, because it's an intelligent design that's fresh, and interesting. Also, the systems put in place when you put them all together work very well together, none of them work well alone.

    "You" see a lot of people who want hardcore content like EQ1 was, because of the frequency of very few people's posts, also psychologically speaking you usually will assume many people are of the same opinion as yourself. If you go through and read what people have written a lot of them want hard content, not a huge amount for a hardcore game.

    Don't turn Wildstar into what you want for EQ3, turn EQ3 into that... They're more likely to be able to bring it back anyway.

    This says, don't listen to the community, but do listen to the ones who have actually played the game. Take what they say worth a grain of gold, but not a nugget. If all of them are saying the same thing there's a problem, if a sprinkling of them are saying it, there could be a problem. Always trust your metrics though. I'd agree with this, except the end bit... EQ2 does not kill WoW.

    The problem is, people come into the forums that read one thing about one game system, and ignore everything else they're doing. They miss the little nuances that change the context of the system, which makes that specific system work. You keep saying SWTOR had horrible looting system and itemization, and this mimics that, but don't say anything other than "Scrap your current system and put one in that's not any better!" It really is just better in your opinion. Instead say what you like about the system, and say how to tweak the current system to make it feel good to you. You're inability to compromise on this, makes a constant point of contention, which is based on an opinion, based on a game that's nothing like Wildstar in any other of the game mechanics, other than levelling perhaps.

    Look at the class system in SWTOR, you've got at most 24 ways to play the game, with 24 possible sets of gear that are THE BEST, assuming all specs are viable. Instead, Wildstar has something like 200 million different ways to play the game, of which hopefully 40-60 will be viable, and need 40-60 different item sets. This is where SWTOR's system could actually work. This is because otherwise you would simply not receive gear in a 40 man raid, ever, or you would start limiting the overall number of builds. On top of this if you change a class in a patch, you may have to start from scratch with your gear due to one dumb ability, which changes your prioritization. That would feel like <REDACTED>!


    This system allows for better balance of classes on top of it all because of the variability, and the freedom to tune your gear towards the changes, which will happen. MMO's are in constant flux, and you have to constantly put effort forth to stay ahead of the curve regardless, this system lets players then not have to start from scratch due to something which was a balance issue. It also allows the developers to take a class that's feeling a little lack luster and tweak it some to make it more fun, and not have to worry about drastically gimping the class or other classes, because the gear doesn't align properly. It lets creativity and intelligence overcome and adapt to the changes. That is the good of the system. It is a good thing. You can't deny that being able to min/max in a different way is bad. It makes the game more interesting.

    The question is, how can you also make that same gear make you feel like it's special?

    Basically take the assumption the system's not going to change drastically, instead how could they tweak it to make it feel awesome. Is a cool utility on-use ability or passive going to make you that feeling you're searching for? Don't say "This system won't work." Instead say "That system will work if..." I'd really like to hear your thoughts Mat'hir you seem pretty passionate about your gaming, and that's never a bad addition to a community. I am just tired of arguing back and forth over make this system don't make this system, instead start your next post with "That system will work if..." and give it some legitimate thought. Don't think about it in the context of SWTOR. New game with a lot of changes.

    Lol, careful there... It's because we agree about a lot of things, just not on some smaller issues. As the issues becomes smaller people will fight harder for them and be willing to further explain to come out with a working compromise.
  13. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    So I think something that may help your perspective is that you're assuming "casual" also means "unskilled." So, try thinking about Wildstar as a game for the "skilled" players of both casual and hardcore backgrounds. This community could work. WoW's community of casual players is a mix of skilled and unskilled and lumped into one group. This doesn't mean they should be, so that's where the problem comes in that community. If you join a "casual raiding" guild in WoW players generally don't care about the game because they feel entitled to gear. They expect because they're paying money to down content. This means they have no problem with getting carried and have no devotion and waste the time and effort of the skilled casuals. At the same time they can't really fit in with a hardcore guild because they can't make the time commitment.


    Again, you're imposing "unskilled" onto "casual" players. I've seen some casual players (in that they only log on every once in a while) who are extremely dedicated to the raid. They will log on a bit every day to prepare for the raid ahead of time, which they only have a certain amount of time to do every day. They log in on time for raiding, and are amazing performance wise. They just can't afford the time commitment as the hardcore players, and get really frustrated with casual guilds because they tend to waste a lot of time, and be lenient on players who are late or not pulling the dps they should or whatever. That skilled casual player doesn't have the time to organize a raid group really either, so it's really hard for these players to find a "home." I think that's another thing that Carbine is trying to create with Wildstar, in that there's a large portion of players who did play WoW and EQ in its hayday and are now grown ups with adults and real jobs and families, but they're still looking for that game that's really challenging but has their schedule.
  14. Nemeses

    Nemeses Well-Known Cupcake

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    That alone tells me you have no idea what you on about.
  15. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Ah, well... simply putting in content that players want isn't always a good thing. They have a limited viewpoint of what's possible. It's like saying "Ok kids, you can eat whatever you want, whenever you want." This is fine to teach kids how to eat properly, because they'll gorge on candy, but then they will throw up and feel terrible, and eventually learn eating loads of candy is bad for you.

    On the other hand, if a developer uses the same philosophy, and gives out as much candy as they want, players will "throw up" and say, "Oh, this content isn't that great afterall... hmm..." then go try to find a game that provides the content they learned they actually need, instead of what they "want."

    They may not consciously know they're hooked by certain content, and just find themselves continuing to return to a certain game, even though they think they want something else. Some people do know what they want and are conscious of this and able to even tell others truthfully what they want. This is especially careful to be wary of if you're looking at forums, as opposed to metrics. The players in the forums aren't as "in tune" with the state of a launched game, as they're on the forums, instead of playing the game...
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  16. Gryf

    Gryf New Cupcake

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    without explanation all you just did was trolling a untill yet very constructive discussion so could you please explain on what basis you came to your conclusion ???
  17. Mat'hir Uth Gan

    Mat'hir Uth Gan Cupcake-About-Town

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    I don't care about skilled versus unskilled at all. It's a video game. When I practice law, I'm using skills. When I'm playing an MMO, I'm playing a game. I'll never judge someone on their ability in a video game. I laugh at people that do.

    Casual, to me, simply means someone that doesn't want (or have the time) to try and play the game almost like a job. It's more of a mindset about taking their time, doing whatever content they want, not racing to finish, generally preferring to solo so they aren't rushed or bullied, and pretty much playing as a solo player in an online world. Pretty much as if they were playing a single player RPG. Perhaps they group if they have an abundance of time on a particular day. It has nothing to do with perception of skill.

    When I complain about the casual attitude, it's only because in games such as WoW, people got upset that they could not experience all the content, get the gear, and complete with people that choose to prioritize the game with more playtime. And WoW, along with almost every other game, attempted to find a way to make games easier on those players that also had jobs and families. Rest xp, xp potions, welfare epics, LFR, LFD, etc... Those are all aimed at casual players that complained it was too hard to keep up with people that prioritized the game more.

    I don't judge anyone. If someone is unemployed and has more hours to play, fine. It makes sense to me they should advance faster. If someone has five kids, works two jobs, and is a single parent, fine. It makes sense to me they will advance slower.

    I just disagree with changing the dynamics of the game so that the people with less time have more ways to compete with those that have more. The game should be the game. Everyone should get to content when they get there. Systems should not be dumbed down or trivialized so that working folks (like me), and people with three kids (like me), can advance easier and compete better.

    But I absolutely reject any debate or argument about people being skilled in video games. I find it utterly ridiculous. I understand some players are better than others, but I just don't care.


    Again, you're not understanding what I'm saying. At all. I don't care about the skill level or contribution level of players in this game. That has no basis on my classification of a casual or hardcore. I don't think one is better than the other. They just are what they are. I don't think either should impact the game so that it changes for the other type of gamer. The game should be the game. If, as a casual, that means you don't have time to raid or do dungeons, so be it. Occasionally you will. I just don't like when people complain that it's not fair and the game needs to become more accessible and easier for people with time constraints.

    A lot of modern MMOs are build from the ground up for casual gaming. Fine. I think it's a mistake, but I understand it's a money grab. I dislike when existing games like WoW or EQ drastically change their game to make content and items accessible because people whined it wasn't fair they couldn't experience the content.

    And again, I'm an attorney. I have three kids and wife. I'm in my Mid-30s. I have serious time constraints. I don't care a flip about challenge one way or the other. I don't care about perceived skill level one way or the other. I want a social game that requires people working together to advance. I want a game that is worth whatever time I put in. If I raid for four hours, I want a chance at an item that makes it worthwhile. That item can be powerful or fun, whatever, as long as it is worth the effort for me. What I don't want is SWToR's system again, because I, like almost everyone else, hated that system. And the developer has said he wants SWToR's system but on every piece of gear and with even more micromanaging. Nobody is going to like that because it's already been done recently and nobody liked it then.
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  18. Mat'hir Uth Gan

    Mat'hir Uth Gan Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well, I'm at a loss because I'm fairly certain my statement is pretty accurate. All the recent games have the casual friendly bells and whistles. Instancing. Dungeon Finders. Rest XP. XP Potions. Solo Friendly Game Play. Hardcore, time-restrictive game play elements have been phased out (wrongly I believe). So, I dunno, I thought what I said was common sense.

    And games are losing massive amounts of players a month to three after launch. Almost all the recent new MMOs have experienced this mass exodus. These new bells and whistles are not keeping the playerbase. Again, I think that's a fact. Games like EQ and WoW kept growing three months after launch and well into the future.
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  19. Gryf

    Gryf New Cupcake

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    Again, you're imposing "unskilled" onto "casual" players. I've seen some casual players (in that they only log on every once in a while) who are extremely dedicated to the raid. They will log on a bit every day to prepare for the raid ahead of time, which they only have a certain amount of time to do every day. They log in on time for raiding, and are amazing performance wise. They just can't afford the time commitment as the hardcore players, and get really frustrated with casual guilds because they tend to waste a lot of time, and be lenient on players who are late or not pulling the dps they should or whatever. That skilled casual player doesn't have the time to organize a raid group really either, so it's really hard for these players to find a "home." I think that's another thing that Carbine is trying to create with Wildstar, in that there's a large portion of players who did play WoW and EQ in its hayday and are now grown ups with adults and real jobs and families, but they're still looking for that game that's really challenging but has their schedule.[/quote]

    i have to agree with you there again :) but the problem is not the skilled casual player that wants to raid but cannot afford to spend 24/7 cause of RL the problem is the wannabe raider that thinks he has the skill and cause he pays for the game the demand to raid and get the loot but doesn t want to put work into that goal. lets be specific. Raiding is work not fun most of the time. And less people these days want to work for that. The trend in mmos is goin to action oriented fights, and the more it goes in this direction the more you see how many unskilled players or unwilling to learn to play players there are out there (funny thing its mostly dps playin classes). In the good old days there wasn t much movement involed in fights. So skill was less important. you could play your dps class half afk watching a movie on tv and noone noticed that fact. Today movement is more important than ultra high dps. If you don t pay attention and move your dead and a dead dpsler doesn t do any damage. i was really shocked to witness how many players cannot adapt to movement intensiv fights and fail horrible. But these "unskilled" raiders don t see it that way. And there are many of those out there... so what should carbine do about those?

    If the raids in WS are as hard as they are promised only very few Guilds will clear them and the player fluctuation will be high cause every hardcore guild gets about 50% wanabes at the beginning and have to sort those out for really skilled raiders to clear content.

    So the skilled casuals will find a home in WS cause they are skilled. They don t have the time to raid much or be online 24/7 but since they have the skills they are wanted anyway in raids and find their place or they will make a guild with players that are on the same shedule and equaly skilled and down the content slower but they down it.

    But what of the unskilled wannabe raiders? what will carbine do to satisfy their need of raiding and loot cause i don t see a way to satisfy them without making the Raiding easier more casual friendly and where that ends you see in many mmos these days ..........
  20. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    So you want a game that your raid leader can call you up at 3 AM, to get a CHANCE at an awesome piece of gear that's amazing... but one that you only have to play an hour that gives you a worthwhile piece of gear for that hour... That seems really really conflicting to me.

    Your argument in the beginning seems to point to a grindy game that that skill is not valued over time commitment. I really don't want this. There's a lot of MMO's currently out that have this type of thing. I'm ok with players advancing better for being better and smarter at the game, in fact I think this should be promoted. I like the idea of a skill based game, and one that you have to think about when you're playing. I think that's good for community too, because you need to get others to help you for that system, you can't just blow through all the content easily. On the other hand the solo content is nice, because then better players won't necessarily have to be dragged down by the players who aren't as good. This is unfair to the good players. I know this sounds contradictory, but if players are able to progress at their own rate in solo content, and pop out the other end as a better player, then they won't be as much a burden to the good players.

    It's really hard to be a good player and explain how to be an excellent player to one that is just smashing buttons and knows nothing about how to play or their class. I think making challenging content makes it so that players will either be trimmed out if they're not capable of learning and being good players, or honing them into good players. This seems to be Carbine's mantra for Wildstar. This is the real issue with WoW right now in the community, that the content's too much of a grey mush, and you can just auto-attack your way through it, as long as you've built your build correctly from the internet guides.

    I don't think it's necessary to gate content by time commitment, it shouldn't feel like "I didn't kill the same mob for 300 hours, so I can't get that piece of gear." It should feel like "I'm simply not good enough at the game to get that piece of gear..." This should drive players to become better, or quit the game, either is fine. I think making the entire game about time commitment is a problem. This system prevents that from happening ever. Basically no way to "Just keep downing this content, eventually you'll outgear the next content forever."

    You should be fighting for the same system if you've got limited time. You should want something that rewards you based on your time spent, appropriate to the challenge you completed. Not one that's based on "OMG I hope that this one piece drops, because then I can grind through the grind faster!" This isn't to say there shouldn't be appropriate challenges to help teach players how to play better. It shouldn't be brick wall after brick wall. It should feel like you're just about to complete the content always. Also, hopefully there's some form of open world content for this progression too, and a couple pieces that need massive groups to complete.

    To be honest they've said that the levelling is going to be 150 hours, so if you have an hour a day, you've got about 5 months before you even hit max level... That alone should be enough to keep people occupied for a long time.
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