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Level 50 Dungeon Item Examples

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by CRB_Gortok, May 31, 2013.

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  1. Gryf

    Gryf New Cupcake

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    how many games promised a lvl time of about 150 to 200 hours till max? ..... and we all saw that the players rushed till max lvl in under 24 hours .... i always doubt such prognosis of how fast players will be till max lvl cause to almost 100 % the developers are hugely underestimating the "i want to be max lvl frist on server" comunity......
  2. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    This is due to problems with raiding, such as bosses that are just broken, and content being tuned incorrectly, or not engaging end-game content. Not due to the casual "bells and whistles." EQ grew after the fact because it was the only game on the market, for 5 years it was pretty much the only option. WoW grew due to keeping end game content engaging, challenging, and fun, and yes they iterated to gain more players, but you argue that you shouldn't change your game to gain more players, but then argue that these games grew. They didn't grow because they stayed the same.

    It's also hard to compare free to play models with subscription based ones. Free to play has to have players, and don't really have to give metrics on how many active players it has. WoW has a lot of metrics, that of subscriptions, crowd sourced metrics on guilds downing bosses.

    Things like world of logs give metrics on current boss kills for teams that are using the software which is free, and wow-progress gives the progression of guilds, so you can come up with actual numbers. So, saying EQ and EQ2 are still online, means they're successful. There are games looking to do things that give the old hardcore feel back (Camelot Unchained comes to mind). But they're for niche audiences. Wildstar is expecting to be larger than that, and Carbine is making what they find fun. It won't be that old feeling, but maybe it'll be a better one too.

    In other words, if you want a game that's like EQ, play EQ... It's a really bad idea to try to capture an audience from other games, instead you have to make a game that you think is awesome, and then hope it attracts people. People may play Wildstar for reasons they didn't think of, or they may hate certain systems they heralded during development.
  3. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Actually, not sure, most games I've seen say something like 60-80 hours until max level, some even more like 40-60 hours. Also, this isn't speaking to that community. It's speaking to the community which has an hour to play every day. If someone wants to cram the entire levelling experience into a day, fine, have end-game ready for them. He mentioned having a very limited time to play, so you've gotta assume at least a month or two before he's in end game content.
  4. Gryf

    Gryf New Cupcake

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    ah ok understood you wrong then sorry
  5. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Simple answer... Ignore them. If they want raiding to be dumbed down for them, they're wrong, they need other content. Raiding should be the ones who are saying "Here's the challenge, we've heard it's possible, we're going to make it happen." Then they do.

    So you end up with guilds merging, and that forces communities to merge. I fail to see the downside. As long as there's somewhere for those 50% of wannabe's to go, and content for them to do, no problems.

    Completely agree, hope it rings true post launch.

    Nothing. They don't need to be raiding. Give them other content to play that they'll enjoy more. Like you said Raiding's work, and just putting together a team isn't enough, you have to be proficient too. Not saying their content shouldn't be challenging, because they should have challenge too. And if they get fed up because "the game's too hard" let them. They end up being a burden on the community anyway, because they're constantly whining, or saying how entitled they feel, or getting carried through content so they can brag to their friends about how good they are at the game. They're terrible for the community, get rid of them, let them find a different MMO. If someone expects to be raiding, simply because they've bought the game, I hope they're sorely disappointed.
  6. BonusStage

    BonusStage Well-Known Cupcake

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    The thing is iam affraid some people say they want hardcore content that can olny be completed by very few, when they really dont.
    Not saying that is the cause for everyone, but it sure is for some.

    Me for exemple, i want a challenge, i love a tough challenge, but i dont really want to rely on other 39 people, having raided before i remember very cleary how annoying it was to start a raid on time with 40 and 25 people. still i understand how some people found that content fun, and it was much harder than 10man, that is for sure.


    still i am Affraid that people say they want content to be hard, and items to be hard to aquire.

    But they want those things to be hard to other people, and not themselfs, and that's where the issue is.
    where do people Draw the line of their Ego Vs Hard content?



    Everyone knows how the comunity has gotten, the special snow flake syndrome, everyone thinks they are the best paladin in the world
    They want to cut trough content like butter, be over powered, but also want everyone else to fail.

    Sure that's not everyone, but still..


    That's how i see the comunity in general, and i hope iam wrong.
  7. Gryf

    Gryf New Cupcake

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    you just described my 39 % of wanabe raiders in detail :) thanks i couldn t say it more clearly. Problem is those people are a majority of the playerbase out there :(
  8. DaVYRoK

    DaVYRoK New Cupcake

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    Id like things to be hard as <REDACTED>, not in terms of time invested but in terms of skill and quality of the players, both for PvP and PvE.

    So the gooder the loot is the harder it should be to get, the riskier it gets. As I said grinding isnt funny at all in the long term.

    Id like Carbine Studios to focus in the basics, which are: why is there a bunch of people raiding here? why should it be known that you are getting massive items for killing big bosses? Is it really a core part for mmorpgs? canĀ“t we really improve this whole experience?

    I mean theres a lack of originallity in all of this, everything has already been seen, yet no company makes the risky move and takes a step forward.
  9. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Some of them actually want hardcore content, but some of them just want hard content. I want hard content. I think if you're making a game based solely on hardcore content, you have to expect a player base of 50,000 or so for a while, and slowly building up over time. That's a pretty small community, so to make it correctly you should assume one server and everything.

    A lot of people would agree with this sentiment. I hope this is what Carbine's building. Although with content that's appropriately challenging for 5 player groups, and something which is a hook for open world too, where you can dynamically make a group of 20-40, as opposed to having to schedule it.

    It should be and they should be. The reward should come as things other than gear. Gear is such a cheap temporary reward. I'm hoping for trophies for your house and stuff that you can wear, or show off.

    The next tier. You make it so that 90% of the community has to wait until the next tier before they can finish the previous one. As long as they can complete it, there shouldn't be an issue. It's you make the content "easy or now," not both. Teaching patience is a good thing.

    Nope, I want it to be hard for everyone, and everyone to fail at some times, and fail hard. That way when they come back and beat it the reward becomes the feeling of accomplishment, and not of that of constant carrot chasing. In other words, the gear should help with motivation but not drive it, and the feeling that you finally beat that boss that's been killing you for days should be the reward.

    I thought it interesting you pointed out "paladin." They are indeed a special and stubborn group...

    That's how WoW's community is. I'm hoping I can't finish the content either. I want a legitimate challenge that makes me say "Wow... not even sure I'm able to do this... Oh well, guess I'll just have to keep trying, worst case scenario wait til the next content patch before I can get it done." not one that's "Well... if I play for long enough my goal will eventually happen."[/quote]
  10. Gryf

    Gryf New Cupcake

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    hihi something is broken the quotes say Gryf Said: but it was Bonusstage not me .... weird quoting system...
  11. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    That's because games haven't given an attempt at trying to teach their players how to play better. They assume the players will teach each other, but in reality this doesn't happen. This is for two reasons, first that people want their game time to be full of content that they enjoy. Teaching others is a burden and many players don't want to do it. Second reason is that players assume they're right because they read the guides online and the internet told them how to properly play, so leave me alone, I know I'm right.

    Real life example, there was a hunter in our raid who was decently geared (as well geared as the best person in the raid, or better, really no idea how that happened) but recently swapped from beast mastery to survival for Heart of Fear in MoP. We downed the first boss, and got to the second boss, and her numbers were abhorrid. Like to the point where it would have been better to let her die and not waste the mana from healing her. She was pulling something like 10k DPS, and the rest of the group was 30-50k+ (including the tank). So we told her we'd have to bench her for now and we'd take the time to teach her how to play better.

    We even had a couple other hunters in the guild try to help her, but she'd just shrug them off and claim "I'm getting help from a friend, he'll help me set up my new mouse I got, etc." So, we asked her after she had everything set up if she could show us on a training dummy what she was doing. She kept refusing help. Eventually she left the guild, which caused a bunch of other drama because the people she came into the guild with had said that they'd only come if they could all raid together, and blah blah blah. I mean I get that people want to play together, but really, if it's just you tagging along, mashing whatever buttons you feel... You're not doing anything good for the group.

    We legitimately tried to help her, but she wasn't having any of it, kept saying "I just need better gear." It is how I see a lot of players in the WoW community right now... That they're lost and don't even know it. And Blizzard's not helping them by letting them down the content on an easier level... Sometimes people need to be told, "You're just doing it wrong."

    It turns out she wasn't using any of the correct class abilities such as "Black Arrow" which was basically a DoT which procced a cooldown on the most powerful ability Survival Hunters had, so she was losing something like 50%+ of her dps because of never using this ability, or her DoT spells correctly.
  12. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    My bad, fixed it.
  13. Gryf

    Gryf New Cupcake

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    in your example no one could have helped. the hunter wanted to play like he/she wanted and to hell with the rest. in the early MMO times a guild was comunity of players that had the same goals and wanted the same things. Down bosses and get better AS A GUILD. Nowadays its more like that many player see guilds as steppingstone to get loot ONLY for themselfs. Hey i m online now you 19 or 39 people are now goin to down that boss for me so that I can get the loot and pose to you all back how awsome i am. Its not a WE anymore its just an I. and that is really really a very sad development :( :(
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  14. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    This is the exact reason to put less emphasis on gear in raiding. Sure it should be better, because the content's harder, and it takes more time to manage a group of raiders, but it's just a way so that content can have a progressive feel. That's all. The real rewards should be from being in that team.
  15. Gryf

    Gryf New Cupcake

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    your right. But how will or should WS achieve this ???? Especially since the playerbase was brainwashed over 15 years in MMO history that you HAVE TO HAVE this epic, legendary, godlike item to be the best ?????
  16. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Leaderboards. Make em in game. Make it so guilds get in game perks for being the top on their server or a scaling reward which is based on your performance. Something that's a bunch of little rewards. Like a 10% repair cost discount for being in the top 10%, 5% for being in the top 25%. Stuff like that. A guild banner is hung at the major cities for the top raider for the server. Things that guilds will have to compete for every week with each other, though not directly. Feeds back into making players better players. At the top end, at some point the challenge stops becoming "can you do this?" and starts becoming "can you do this better?"
  17. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well, I think that's reasonable. EQ3 is EQ3, it's got the EQ right in the title, most people have never even heard that there was an EQ3, so chances are good that, right now, anyone following the game are hardcore EQ1 fans. Now whether they will actually deliver "more EQ1" when that game launches, who knows? And whether if they do deliver that, will any more than a few thousand players already on their boards actually play that? Who knows?

    Wildstar is in a tougher spot as far as expectations goes. It has no pedigree, beyond that a lot of their devs ahve worked on various other successful MMOs, and fans of those MMOs are looking for the elements of them that they liked (which are sometimes contradictory). They also have some cool and funny trailers, so players are expecting cartoony graphics and animation, and a good sense of humor from the game. They have highlighted several features, like housing, action combat, and jumping puzzles, so some players are seriously interested in those. Buried in some interviews are references to "hardcore raids" so some people are interested in those.It's perfectly reasonable that at this point in development you would get a lot of people who want a lot of different things. I've followed a lot of different games from early in development and this is far from the most "ridiculous" community, there have been plenty where the pie in the sky dreams of the pre-beta crowd have been far more off base.

    But what about WoW? That game was clearly just a compilation of all the popular theory at the time and it's done very well for itself.

    EQ2 is going very tepid. It's only still going because SoE has enough money from other projects to keep the lights on, and they're already apparently making a sequel. EQ1 and UO made their bones back in the ancient times, neither game would be a success if first released today, even with significant graphical upgrades. What worked over a decade ago may not work in today's market.

    Monthly fee. You can't charge a monthly fee anymore. Also there was a leveling plateau around level 30-40 or so, where everything seemed to get really slow and grindy. They didn't have enough content at that range to really carry the leveling curve, forcing players to jump planets before finishing the one they were on. Also some of the classes were very poorly balanced out, making the content sometimes way too difficult. I don't recall having any issues with the items in TOR, aside from that visual customization was a huge hassle. If they'd had GW2-style transmutation stones, or better yet DCUO's style system, I can't think of any issues I'd have with their item system.

    The game should be designed to be comfortable for the vast majority of players. If a more casual player feels that he's not getting anywhere after weeks of play then he's more likely to quit than if he feels he's making genuine progress because of "catch-up" mechanisms. His money is as good as the more hardcore player's, and unless the game is charging by the hour (as some Asian MMOs do), the game company has no reason to go after the hardcore player more than the casual, they're both paying the same.

    In most cases, the developer numbers are based around playing the game "normally," while the 24 hour speed runs are based more around twinking and booster rockets and grinding. The example of GW2 players hitting 80 quickly is one of these, there are ways to hit 80 in only a few hours if you have enough gold stored up, but you certainly haven't actually experienced any of the game that way, and if you actually play the game then it will indeed take hundreds of hours to try everything. If your goal is to reach level cap and quit, most games probably give a path to do that relatively quickly, but if your goal is to experience everything the game has to offer, most will offer that as well.
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  18. Yakzan

    Yakzan "That" Cupcake

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    <Mod Monocle> I think this thread has run its course and completely lost track of its original intent. If you wish to continue one of the many different topics, please make appropriate threads about it. You can cross-post np using the reply function and copy/pasting it to the new thread/post. </Mod Monocle>
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