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Level as Tank/Heal

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by Shazril, Apr 4, 2013.

  1. Shazril

    Shazril New Cupcake

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    You bring up some good points - I think the public events concept really does help with the archetype-while-leveling conundrum. In both WAR and Rift I was able to stay heal spec and get a lot of experience and win gear rolls by healing the public quest group. I had friends that would also frequently tank them too, cause that almost guaranteed that the public quest would succeed. I know they can't please everyone - but that variety/choice encourages those that WANT to play something other than DPS to have a good option to keep pace and join in while leveling.

    Also, I think the Paths may help this too - since not everyone is stuck in exactly the same leveling path, a Healer/Settler has just a good of a chance as any, I suppose. I don't know that I would be a healer and choose the Soldier path - but with enough group content, that is probably equally optional as well. That's all I am hoping for, is to have options to make all the archetypes viable leveling choices - a 'bring your whole self to the game' and not fitting into a mold, because that's the formula. That, to me, is what will help build a better community.

    I appreciate all the comments - I'm glad I asked the question.
  2. Maxtross

    Maxtross Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yep me too,i've leveled twice in SWTOR as a healer because the companion system really helped with it.But in WoW, i tried leveling as a resto shammy in MoP and wow it took me forever to kill a single mob lol..
  3. Primalthirst

    Primalthirst Cupcake

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    One of the best moves Carbine can make, in my opinion, is to ensure players can have many different LAS Loadouts saved at a time. Forget Dualspec, go for 4 or more specs saved at a time. That way players can have their pure DPS Loadout, their pure Healing loadout, their soloing Hybrid loadout and a couple of extras to play around with/use for niche situations.

    Rift does this perfectly, everyone can have 6 specs on them at a time and it gives everyone amazing flexbility in dungeons etc. If your Healer or Tank dcs it doesn't matter because half the people in the group are able to swap instantly.

    The best part about creating a flexible system like this is that it encourages people to experiment with builds that fit their playstyle and gets people used to using all of their classes capabilities, not locking themself into the optimum DPS spec and never changing because they only have 2 spec slots. As a result almost the entire playerbase is comfortable with tanking and healing as well as DPS and so there are far less issues with queue times.

    If people are bringing you because of your class then there's a problem. Sounds like someone just wants to be a special snowflake and isn't competent enough to get a spot on merit. If you're a better Healer or Tank then the DPS who swaps specs then you deserve your spot, if you aren't, then you don't.
  4. Prodigy

    Prodigy New Cupcake

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    In my experience leveling as a tank is easier then dps because you are harder to kill so you don't have as much downtime in between pulls. Leveling as a healer in my experience was total <REDACTED> I did it as a holy priest in WoW and it was almost impossible.... That changed later when dual spec was implemented but pre dual spec it would take months to level. I hope this game has some form of either dps spells then respec later or a dual spec.
  5. Eerie

    Eerie New Cupcake

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    I'm a healer, I've been a healer most of my gaming career (career? life? experience?). I don't like being needed, it's exhausting being the only capable healer around. I, however, love being the best healer. There is so many out there that just go "Oh, I'm a healer, love me, friendlist me, hihi I'll come revive you:inlove:" No. I'm the kind that will be yelling at my dps if they do something silly and spanking my tank for overaggroing.

    "Starring in a particular role" shouldn't help forming social groups. Isn't guilds supposed to belp form social groups? Sitting on teamspeak, getting to know other people and liking or disliking them based on personality. Once you group up with people you like, the game experience gets so much better.

    I general dislike dual-specs, but I also hate games where the healer can't do anything alone. Needing a group to level from lowlevels is tedious and.. annoying. So, if there isn't some dmg-balance within the class, I'd be totally for a dualspec. It's one of the reason I enjoy rift so much, because I can run around and level as I want and still be a good healer when it's needed.
  6. Chomag

    Chomag Cupcake-About-Town

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    Oh please. Do yourself a favor and level as the spec you intend to be at max level, unless ofcourse it's not really possible, like leveling as a healer (though several MMOs have healing specs that really don't have issues during leveling).

    Otherwise you'll hit max level and realize you barely know how to play your main spec, while exceling at off spec.
    Mat'hir Uth Gan likes this.
  7. Mat'hir Uth Gan

    Mat'hir Uth Gan Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well, you and I are at opposite ends of the spectrum then. The lack of class individuality and importance is why I quit Rift, along with everyone else I know. The game was fun, but why did so many people leave? Because nobody gave a <REDACTED> about their character. You could be all things at any time. And gearing up was incredibly easy. There was little challenge in Rift. That's not an MMO. It's not even close. Rift was just a cute online casual game that made it easy to solo while appearing to be playing with others.

    With 4 or more specs, and/or the ability to morph into any role at a given time, players don't need to rely on others to advance. It's now a primarily solo experience. And that's what you want, to minimize how often you have to rely on others to play the game. Sorry, that's not the style of MMO the genre launched with or that I was raised on. You just want an online game that you can solo to win, but group if you ever feel the need. I want an online game that EVERY class has to group to play to advance. But even more than that, is the concept that it should take you the entirety of leveling up just to learn how to play your class and role effectively, let alone approach mastering it.

    I think the entire idea that someone could level up in one manner and then change roles at end game, and instantly be effective in a completely different role speaks to a broken, simple, and redundant game design which has seen the last several AAA MMO titles fail to approach expectations. Nobody wants this. Except the most extreme of casuals that jump games every time a new one comes out.

    If the game is fun, people will play for a few months until they get bored. If the game is fun and people are invested in their unique character and gear that they've poured hours and hours into, then they'll play a lot longer. If both of the above are true and the player has a ton of friends in game and they rely on each other to advance and improve, than the player now has three reasons to stay and will stay a very long time. Everquest proved this. Early Warcraft proved this. All the recent MMOs, in their failure, proved it as well.

    The lifeblood of an MMORPG is social contacts. The more freedom and power you give the player in their individual game, the less they'll rely on others and group. This kills the game. You're for this, I'm against it. I'm just confused that if you love Rift so much, why are you even spending a second looking at a different MMO?
  8. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    Actually rift is one of the most successful mmos to come out in the last few years. The fact that they didn't go free to play says a lot. Rift is only a solo focused game while leveling. 90% of the content at max level is group/raid content just like most mmos. The fact is, every game is as casual as you want it to be. If you raid in rift for 40hours a week is it not a hardcore game to you?

    If this you want a game where you need to group to win and nothing else will work, W* really isn't the place for you. Carbine has already shown that not only will they have solo content while leveling but must of the lore at max level will also be available solo.

    How well you do at any given role has more to do with how skilled you are at mmo combat in general. In eq2 every class had only one role and yet good players could power level a new character to max and play to a very high level within 5 hours of play. Being good at 2 roles doesn't mean the game is to easy, it means you are a good player.


    Just keep in mind that you wont have all your class's abilities at any one time like you could in rift. (random numbers here) You might have 40 skills to chose from from which you can afford 25. You then take these 25 to build a LAS.
  9. Mat'hir Uth Gan

    Mat'hir Uth Gan Cupcake-About-Town

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    Raiding doesn't make a game hardcore or not. I'm not entirely sure what makes a game hardcore or even what that means. I do know what makes a game more casual though. And that's usually hand in hand with soloability, because doing things yourself is infinitely more easier than having to rely on others. I'm looking for a new Everquest 1 style game. That's what I want. It's what a lot of people want. The closest thing anyone ever got to Everquest 1 was Warcraft, and that was massively successful as well. For reasons beyond my imagination, nobody is cloning EQ1 or Vanilla WoW, even though both were mind-boggingly successful for their respective times, and the entire reason MMORPGs are as big as they are today. Warcraft shifted its game to the casual crowed as more expansions came out and everyone decided to copy the current WoW, instead of the game that made it great in the first place.



    Oh, I enjoy soloable content, just like everyone else. I'll be happy to solo through and enjoy the game. Just as I did with all the fun recent MMOs. And then, after 2-3 months, I'll quit, along with the vast majority of the playerbase because nothing is keeping me playing.

    WildStar gives me hope because of the 40 man raids. I do love big raiding, always have. But, it all depends on how they do their loot drops. If the loot is done like Vanilla WoW's Molten Core, than I will probably be happy to play this game for quite awhile, but if it's loot pinatas like current WoW and most other games, than I'll be geared up and done after a few months. I do enjoy chasing that carrot towards character perfection as long as its fun and not a tedious pvp or rep grind.


    Disagree. These games should be massively complex. In Everquest, you could easily tell if someone bought an endgame character or had them powerleveled, because they couldn't play. That was a massively difficult game. EQ2 was a dumbed down version of the first game that any idiot could play, but it was still more complex than the games coming out now. I played EQ2 for a few years, the crafting and housing was phenominal, I'm very excited about the housing in WildStar. I was dumbfounded that for years, no game simply copied EQ2's housing and guildhall system. But, yeah, in Everquest it took months to level and you had to have a group. EQ2 at launch required a group, but it was so horribly implemented and so vastly different from Everquest 1, that everyone quit. Having WoW as an alternative didn't help either. But, EQ2 eventually became a great game after several years worth of fixes. The biggest problem was always that it was so easy to level, especially when you could buy experience potions from the cash shop.

    But yeah, being good at multiple roles to me means the game is far too easy, unless you've been working at both for quite a long time.


    This part of the game is interesting, and is a lot like Everquest 1. You had a hundred spells in EQ, but you could only select 7 at a time, though you could change in a fight if you were quick. This could be really good, so I'm curious to see how this feels. And that's why I am here looking at WildStar, because it has some potential to be good, mainly because it's bringing back a few things from Everquest 1 and Vanilla WoW. No other game is doing that, though we'll see what Everquest 3 has going for it this year as well. I figure one of the two games will be the least horirble option currently available, and I'll enjoy that one the best I can.
  10. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    You say this and yet in both rift and eq2 99.9% of players couldn't play to a high level in terms of dps. Sorry, but i don't buy this things were always harder in the old days nonsense. Its all hotkey combat, its pretty easy to transition from one skill set to the next. The only learning period is remembering all your key binds and what the skills do. EQ2 had 20+ button rotations with another 20 utility buttons and yet you could still learn to do top end dps/healing/tanking in a few nights if you were a good player.

    There are plenty of korean games that embrace the idea of a grind and needing groups to level if that's your thing.
  11. Yakzan

    Yakzan "That" Cupcake

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    <Mod Monocle> Please remember to stay civil, on-topic and, of course, refrain from making any sort of personal attacks. </Mod Monocle>
  12. Primalthirst

    Primalthirst Cupcake

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    @Mat'hir Uth Gan
    Having multiple specs doesn't necessarily mean you don't need specific gear for those specs, it just means people are more likely to bother acquiring Off-spec gear since they actually have the role slots to experiment with them. You seem to be very pro-waiting 30 mintues in a dungeon for a replacement player to fulfill a role, I am very against wasting my time. Seems those goals in MMOs conflict.
  13. Mat'hir Uth Gan

    Mat'hir Uth Gan Cupcake-About-Town

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    Things were harder in Everquest 1, Everquest 2 at launch, and Vanilla WoW. For sure.

    It was actually Everquest 2, when they lost the launch battle with Warcraft, that de-constructed their game and changed it to appeal to the casual playerbase. I'm not sure if you knew this or not, but at launch, EQ2 had no soloing AT ALL. It had massive death penalties which the entire group suffered if one idiot died running to the camp spot. You had to do key quests to gain access to almost every dungeon and zone. It was the most frustrating game I've ever seen. After a mass player exodus to Warcraft and loud complaining, EQ2 spent the next year casualizing their game to appeal to the solo player, saving the "hard" group content for raids, which remained extremely challenging.

    This change led to a huge turn-around for the game, and Warcraft took notice. So, then Warcraft followed suit and began to casualize it's game in the same manner. They took out most elite quests and made them soloable. In early WoW, there were a ton of elite quests that required grouping. WoW had launched with some soloable content, now it was mostly a soloable game except it's dungeons and raids.

    Everquest 1 was vastly more difficult than both of these games combined. Even the raiding, thouugh that was largely because everything was open world and guilds contested each other for everything. Instancing made raiding a cake walk in the later games to come.

    What you are talking about with key binds and abilities is so far removed from the challenges that I'm talking about, that I'm actually confused about your point. The games were built to be hard, and that required a huge learning curve with your class and role to be efficient. EQ2 and WoW screwed this up though because they gave you all abilities at all times. That takes no skill, no strategy. You just min/max your rotation and if something else pops up, you have all your abilities and clickies there on your bar. I had over 100 buttons on my EQ2 interface. It was ridiculous. Vanguard was another game that botched this aspect. As far as I'm aware, it sounds like WildStar is the first game bringing back ability strategy since EQ1.

    But enough of my history lesson and tangent, your last response is incorrect. I don't want a grind like Eastern MMOs. I enjoy the stories, lore, and questing of Western MMOs. I just want to do those in a group-centric game. Everquest 2 is the only one that ever tried to make that type of game, but they screwed it up on so many levels, that they might well be the last. I want a fun game, not a tedious one. A fun game that relies on others to advance because soloing is not an option outside of crafting, harvesting, exploring, and hopefully quite a few other fun timesinks. But, adventuring and leveling? Group only. With lots of quests, lore, and dungeons.
  14. Mat'hir Uth Gan

    Mat'hir Uth Gan Cupcake-About-Town

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    And this is where I still have some hope for dual spec. As long as gear is extremely hard to get, and requires great effort to have multiple sets, than I'm less terrified that Dual-Spec will make class individuality obsolete. If it takes one dungeon run to get a set of tanking, healing, or DPS gear that allows you successfully do end game content, than that's a terrible design plan.

    As for wasting time in dungeons, a group centric game would by definition have a large portion of the playerbase looking for groups at all times. If certain classes can Call of Hero new group members to their location, than I can't imagine there being much of a wait, especially if you're social and have a decent friends list or guild.
  15. Malorak

    Malorak Cupcake-About-Town

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    The Limited Action Bar is interchangeable inbetween battle and you can save sets of these together with your ability sets, that's been validated somewhere which I like.

    You can probably just change the LMA that's probably enough for leveling. I'll play a tank and I don't like having a 2nd specc tbh...But I will probably still have a 2nd spec for damage and leveling for my warrior.
  16. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    Let me start off by saying death penalties =/= challenge. If anything they just up the level of tedium and make leveling take longer. If you do any easy task 1,000,000 times it doesn't make it a hard task, its just an easy task that takes a long time. I have no interest in the difficulty of the game being in me staying interested enough to get to cap. I want the challenge to come from really hard group/raid content.

    Everything ive seen from early eq2/eq1 raids is simple tank and spanks compared to encounter design today. Yes the dps checks/heal checks could be hard, but overall the fights were pretty simple. And you can say eq2 got easier over time, but Munzok the hardest boss in eq2 by far (posiibly one of the hardest in any mmo) came after the 5th expansion.

    Again, im sure not many people in eq1 made it to cap, but the actual difficulty involved in the actual combat, pressing those 10 buttons is not any harder then mmos today.
  17. Psistorm

    Psistorm Cupcake-About-Town

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    As for dual-spec or multi-spec, I think we might just have to think differently about the whole thing.
    Maybe it was time to go about things a bit different, because wildstar is mixing things up a little bit already.

    I mean, first of all, several specs/skill layouts will be unavoidable. PvE versus PvP, solo versus raid. You pretty much ahve to have a different setup generally, to be adaptive to the situation. I mean lets take a look at WoW rogues. Leveling in your burst PvP spec generally is.. a bit of a poor idea. So you have something more suited for the regular solo content or dungeoning. Plus you don't typically see raiders get it on in their pvp gear either.

    Now that said, I think the solution to the whole ordeal is twofold.
    One: A class should be able to fill multiple roles fairly easily. Many people get invested in their characters, so if they find out the class might not be for them, they might re-roll, or they might decide the game isn't for them. People do that. This also means you can hybrid it up a bit for leveling. Aka a healer can hurt stuff fairly well, and a tank can get things dead, while being more survivable. Both of them should level a bit slower naturally, because they bring their own utility and survivability bonuses. If they choose to forfeit that, they become faster at killing things.
    This also can extend to statting. Because lets face it. Who says a healer's heal rating has to be effected by one stat, but their damage by another? Stats could be balanced to have a general potency value, which would allow being more of a hybrid if you want, and not having to sacrifice all your DPS just because you want to main a dungeon/raid healer. Skill layouts should be more determining your role than gear, imho.

    Two: Make the tasks less daunting and more fun. Not take away challenge. But I think the basic understanding in people is "If I tank/heal, then I am the sole reason that makes my party not fail. The survival of my teammates rests on my shoulders". So if, say, you tank a 40-man raid, having 39 people get very angry if you screw up is kind of really intimidating. Also, healing in general is not always fun, someone often described it as "whack-a-mole with HP bars". Queue the inquisitor from EQ2. I played that class, even though I normally am a DPS player, and I LOVED it. A plate cleric walking into combat and laying about with a mace, whilst throwing reactive heals on enemies that grant people healing who attack it? YES.
    Sure, it had direct heals and all, but it felt soooo much better than when I tried a druid healer in WoW. It was all just dot dot dot dot and procs off it.
    Healing should be a fun activity.
    As for tanking, queue EQ2s shadowknight. An AOE tank with death spells and general badassery going on? Again, yes. Played that duo with my partner (inq/SK) and had tons of fun doing group pulls and nuking them into the ground while I kept him up and fighting. It was an incredibly rewarding experience, and while we didnt get into group content much back then, the feel of those classes just.. worked.

    They were about doing damage to get things done, and they had a strong concept going. I very much like that idea, honestly.
    Other concepts for a healer would be the disciple of kane from warhammer online. Except that one was less fun, since you had to watch all the healthbars constantly and swap both offense and defense targets constantly. Challenging, but also less fun sadly.

    But to sum up my usual wall-o-text:
    - Classes should have multiple roles available to them, and multispec should be a thing, so you can adapt your skills and possibly gear choices to changing situations/environments (solo, pve, pvp, raid)
    - Skills should be more determining your classes role than gear. For your pve needs you should not have to try and gear up double just because you want to role switch
    - Alternately, it should be easy to gear up for two specs. Some games outright expect you to (secret world. is absolutely punishing about gearing yourself for group play, thanks to its solo missions, which require you to gear for solo dps or literally spend half an hour on forced solo content), but still dont offer you the ability to, or it is an enormous hassle, forcing you to go out of your way considerably
    - Healing and tanking should be fun activities. Challenging but fun, something people will want to do, and will want to be good at. They should be more rewarding than "stand infront of enemy and never make a mistake, or 39 people get angry at you"
  18. Maxtross

    Maxtross Cupcake-About-Town

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    Leveling as a healer in SWTOR with companion is a breeze compared to WoW solo leveling.

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