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LFD, Accessibility and Different Audiences

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by azmundai, Jul 1, 2013.

  1. azmundai

    azmundai Well-Known Cupcake

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    <confused glasses>
    just to start with, this thread seems to have been started by the mods from a post from another thread. just want to clarify .. I am not starting a post about this .. at least not intentionally. for some reason this was all considered off topic despite the fact that the OP is the one that brought up LFD in a discussion he started about systems that will fail to retain players ..

    this was the post that started the discussion and my reply ..

    I think the problem is most studios don't care. The unfortunate state of the genre is that it is full of people that don't care about group content and just want to play a single player game in a world with other people. It's yet to be seen how much Carbine cares about this. They tend to say they do .. but 16 or so years of this and I have given up faith in what devs say.

    the lfd is a bandaid for the fact that they can't figure out how to balance servers. im not saying it's easy or even entirely possible to completely balance out servers that are incapable of creating groups .. but there have to be possible solutions that don't turn the community into a bunch of loot zergers that see the other four people in their group as existing purely for the purpose of getting themselves loot.

    Carbine says they have added lfd because it is familiar. they want the game to feel like previous mmos and while I don't think that is a bad approach in all cases, I just think there are some thing that shouldn't be similar and lfd is one of them. even with the server only option which I was initially very happy to hear about .. i have a feeling the issues with lfd are going to perpetuate regardless of how many people queue for same server.

    so to kinda answer your initial question, I think lfd is something that will kill player retention .. there used to be a commitment involved in creating and joining a group. you put something on the line and said to the other people that you were there to help, that you were there to do your best to accomplish their goals and they were there to do their best to accomplish your goals. over time you were able to easily identify people that were not there for the group and you could avoid them. you made lasting relationships with people on your server. even the fact that you had to run all the way to the dungeon meant you were prepared to make sure you hadn't wasted time getting there. all of that psychology is gone now and dungeons have essentially become solo content. again, because devs know full well that the genre is comprised mostly of people playing a solo rpg in a world that has other people in it that they can meme chat with and overcharge for their own gain, and otherwise use to get better stuff.

    anyway .. here's to hoping im wrong.
    </confused glasses>

    interestingly enough, i cancelled my rift account the day they released lfd.

    wildstar's lfd system will likely be a factor in whether I am retained or no. i believe it is why most games have retention problems. not the only reason, but a reason. its dumbed down the content and shortened the time it takes to get things done. futhermore, the main reason I stayed in wow for 6 years was because of the people I took dirt naps with at the bottom of dungeons .. once upon a time those people would actually engage in conversation from time to time .. of course once upon a time you actually took dirt naps in dungeons from time to time. the instant gratification lfd system has almost single handedly destroyed this part of mmos for me.
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  2. mysticjbyrd

    mysticjbyrd Cupcake-About-Town

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    Just because the LFG feature exists doesn't mean that the content has to be dumbed down. Even in WoW LFD and semi-challenging 5 mans coincided.
  3. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Did it? Last time we saw semi-challenging/challenging 5 mans was beginning of Cataclysm and then ZA/ZG. But by that point the community was so used to a dungeon they could do in 30 mins or less that they didn't want to go through ZA/ZG. I would say that LFD doesn't inherently mean that the content will be made easier, and making the content hard so that players must rise to the challenge will mean it's more likely to pre-form a group, instead of numerous wipes due to one guy who refuses to learn how to play properly.

    I think LFD tools are useful, but generally allow players to get into content they shouldn't be in with no effort. This allows players then to be carried through the content while not providing anything beneficial to the group (I.E. a sense of humor or whatever). Without the LFD tool you have to either provide the skill needed to get through the content, or a social aspect which is favorable. I think putting more effort into finding a group makes players more likely to treat each other better, and teach each other because getting kicked or blacklisted or finding another member because it will take effort to get back into a full group.
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  4. Zellfel

    Zellfel Cupcake-About-Town

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    LFD didn't cause dungeon content to be dumbed down, people crying over the necessity of coordination did. I hope that Wildstar does a better job at low levels of teaching its playerbase through the game on how to properly play it effectively so that this kind of crying for content nerfs is reduced. It'll never be completely gone, bad players will always blame the game or other people before they release they need to improve.

    LFR was the difficulty killer, since it had its own difficulty in WoW. Personally I don't want to see multiple difficulties of raids. Carbine already said they're going with set raid group sizes per raid, I hope they design each raid with a set difficulty curve instead of giving us one watered down version of a raid (or 2 in WoW's case) before seeing the "real" content. Completing a raid should be something to truly aspire to, not something that should be a given.
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  5. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I'm hoping the elder game solo content will help to mitigate the number of players that are simply bad in the dungeons. If you ever hear someone's a clicker at max level, let them know they should key-bind (politely).
  6. mysticjbyrd

    mysticjbyrd Cupcake-About-Town

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    I agree.

    As a side note, WoW is coming out with a 4th difficulty now called flex raid. It is between LFR and Normal version in difficulty. It allows different numbers of players to participate. I believe that anything between 10 and 25 players can be in this raid, and it scales appropriately.
  7. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    Instead of making access to LFD something everyone can do just with buying a set of starter gear off the AH, make it gated so it is something to aspire for, something that the player have to meet challenges to overcome to get into for every level tier, and thus have to show a medium of skill to use.

    Then there is no need to dumb the dungeons themselves down, as long as the initial dungeons provides some group exersices for a healthy group play learning curve.

    Been over this conversation before. LFD is a good thing if implemented right. WoW and Rift are the two games I think did it best, and they still have a lot of space for improvements, as in implementing gates besides gear for the player to prove that they can meet the challenge of group dungeons and solution(s) to the whole social consequence deal. If community suffers, then it is because the community already have a problem - like no reason to group in the open world content and trolls being left to reign the chat channels.

    Also, if access to LFD is something to achieve rather than a given right, more of the socially inept and morally bankrupt players will value their access, rather than spit on it and the players they get matched with for whatever reasons.

    Edit:
    I'd like to nominate Crimmen for Pay it Forward on grounds of good ideas...

    Edit 2:
    I agree, really looking forward to seeing how virtual realms will effect WoW. No doubt there will be "baby sicknesses" with the feature like with any new big feature, but over time, it may solve the greatest vulnerability of splitting a game up into server realms, which was the standard last decade.

    It is just another natural step in the direction Blizzard took, when they implemented the crossrealm tech - people should have seen it comming a mile away.
  8. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

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    First let me say that I agree to a point. However, I see a trend on these forums that I believe is bad for the community and as well as the Game.

    I am a 1% Player to a degree, mainly due to how competitive I am in Sports and Games. I do realize and I am hoping I can make as many other like minded players realize that a Game simply can't survive with only the 1% getting content on their Level. I also despise when Casuals cry about the current Level of content or when Bad Players blame the game, however I feel that we are taking it to an extreme as well at the moment. I believe that we have been ignored in every current MMO and finally we are getting a some notoriety and we want all the content.

    This a problem and I have debated several times about this. The game needs to be balanced to strive and I believe this is how they will handle the content and should. Everything needs to be scaled to appease all Gamers, which is handled by give and take. Simple solution scale everything with Incentives and Gear. What I mean by Scaling is also simple, Dungeons can either go the Heroic Path, Gear Score Path, or simply by letting the players experience the variety of dungeons difficulties. Same with Raid content make 20 mans Hard but accessible for Casuals and make 40 mans tuned for the 1%. Same with Solo content, start off with easier content and eventually get to content tuned for the 1% solo content.

    Comments like these bother me and are a problem.

    The thing is NOT EVERYONE are good at Games. I have played with past Girlfriends and Friends who simply suck. When I even hinted at key binds, it was like trying to teach my dog to fly. Even some who caught on to key binds, still suck due to their reaction speed. So should they not get any content? So if I play this game and wish to Raid/Dungeons with some of my Bad Friends then I can't? This is a bad mindset and is a game killer. This is only a Bad Player example, I can give comparable examples for Casuals. Should they not be able to do content due to lack of time, or simply because they only want to play the game CASUALLY?

    This is a common and arrogant mindset that I loathe and that I have dealt with in my 8 years of Hardcore Gaming. The way some of you guys look down on people is sad. The whole, "well I am good so they should get to my level", or believe that anybody can reach the 1% if they played enough is simply wrong.

    Hopefully this game is balanced and they make content for all Players and not simply the Casuals or 1%.

    As far as the Topic: One I already mentioned and it is Balancing around one group of Players.
    Two not enough endgame content for every Area that they have advertised.
    Three being the difficulty they have also advertised.
    Last one is my main concern and that is Normalized Rewards. It takes away from Incentives and Competition so much.
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  9. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I think the main issue comes when you attempt to bring all the players into the same content. I think it's ok for some content to only be seen by the dedicated and hardcore, as long as the entire rest of the population is happy with what they have. In other words, for some, dungeons will be raiding, as in they'll still have progression and such, but won't have to waste all that extra time with a disorganized team of similar players. For the casuals who are good at the game, they will be raiding, it will just take them longer to progress.

    First of all key-binding would make them better players when they learn it. If they can type on a keyboard, they can learn to key-bind, it may be slow and 1 button at a time, but they can do it. They will get better as they play with key binds more, it's a learning curve, but a good one.

    There's plenty of other group content you can play with your bad friends. I never said anything against time. You're putting words in my mouth. If a player is bad, should there be content geared towards them? Yes. Should it be what's supposed to be the elite content? No. You really don't need to be raiding with them, the adventures are supposed to be 2-3 hour stents which are dynamic based on decisions you make, and for 5 people. This is a much friendlier environment than raiding being that it's 5 people so you can do it on a whim and not have to schedule it. This is more friendly to BOTH casual players as well as bad players, as they can do it when they have time instead of having to make time out of their schedule.

    Secondly, casual players should be able to do dungeons and raids if they're good. Bad players should not. Arguing that bad players should be able to raid is poor game design. I'm not saying bad players shouldn't be able to play the game, but no, they shouldn't be able to raid successfully if they're not learning to get better. Why should they get handed things? If you want that type of content, guess what, there's WoW.

    Lastly, why not make max level dungeons the "casual's" raiding environment, in that it's where the majority of casuals go to "progress." This means they have to deal with less downtime and stupid stuff because of 20 to 40 people being unorganized when they hit max level. I really don't see an issue with that. Not everyone needs to see the raiding, it just doesn't need to happen, as long as they're happy with the content they have. From what I've seen of the lvl 30 dungeon, I think the dungeons can be tuned to make them progressive, and will end up being the closest a lot of players get to raiding. I think that's fine. It also prevents the players from roflstomping through dungeons and then getting to that weird gap between dungeons and raiding, and assuming raiding's going to be easy because they got carried through dungeons.

    The 1% is speaking of the first 1% to hit max level and start raiding/doing end game content. This player population is important to appease, because if they hit max level and are bored, they tell the rest of the community. Saying to not cater to them is terrible.

    I'm hoping that they do make content for everyone, I hope all the content isn't for everyone though, but everyone does have content they like. I don't think Bad players need to be doing raiding, therefore they don't need to do dungeons, as the dungeons are a way to gear for raiding. I do hope they have some sort of content that helps them become good players though. People are capable of learning if they want to.
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  10. Dave Bowman

    Dave Bowman New Cupcake

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    Excellent point. Carbine's doing a crazy good job burning both ends of the candle, kudos, but the hardcore end needs to stop expecting that this is the new EQ1/UO/w/e.

    Word on that.

    Bout time that people realized that you can't beat someone in a race if they didn't know they were racing and spent most of their time frolicking by trackside barefoot chasing butterflies. They paid the cover fee, stop judging the redacted out of them and trying to make life hard on them. They are by definition paying for your content (I bet the 40-man raid that humps you sans lube and is only beaten by the 1% costs more than 1% of content budget to develop) so be nice to them.

    To get back on topic, from my observation it is usually the middle activities that will drop off first on retention issues: the LFD, the non-rated bgs, etc. After the three months or w/e in a bad game you still have new curious people rolling alts and the starting zones aren't too bad, and the endgame people cling on to their investment for a little longer. Good indication of things going downhill is actually people making fewer guilds of any kind - even social/casual. Guilds numerically are the dead canaries.
  11. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Or what about a system which, if they get kicked from groups enough, they have to earn their way back in? I'm fine with people having less skill when they enter a dungeon, I don't mind teaching people and giving tips. This is one thing the player base should be used to, is teaching each other, not simply spurting out boss mechanics at boss fights. LFD should allow you to meet players who need and want help, but the ones who just need to be weeded out of the system would be banned from LFD until they have successfully run something like 5 dungeons without it.

    It could run on a % in that if you get kicked out of 20% of your overall dungeons or more, you can't use LFD until you've completed 5 dungeons without being kicked. And yes, completed is a good way to do it, because if you can't learn to work as a team or play well enough to finish the content you don't need to be doing LFD, you need to be working on your attitude/learning to play better.

    Agreed.

    That's what their plan is. Let it happen organically, then add in more incentives to make it be sustainable.

    Carbine's implementing something like that called Mentoring, where a higher level player can downlevel and still earn an equivalent higher level reward for helping others.
  12. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    To all stuff above this point I'd tend to agree that there needs to be some sort of sustainable content with progression for all the players of the game. Whether or not this is raiding is debatable.


    I know this is really semantics, but how do you think circles will play into this? Do you think because players are in circles they'll feel less need to be in a guild, or form a guild (especially because they often become a "hive mind")? Or, do you think guilds will be smaller and use Circles to pad out members when they need it?

    There's a possibility which circles will have no observable effect on the number metrics with guilds. This is that the two possibilities above counter each-other out or that players don't adopt them.

    The majority do that because they have broken systems, not because it's something that just happens. All of the things you've stated are intrinsic to MMO games, not just Wildstar. The OP specifically stated later that they don't care about context, only about the systems specific to Wildstar. The reason it's an opinion and not a fact is the OP was saying that this WILL happen to Wildstar, not if it happens.

    There will be some drop over the first couple months due to players not liking the actual game, and having nothing to do with anything about systems. This drop in players is not drastic enough to account for systems breaking though.
  13. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

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    Never said I believe everyone should see all the content. This is where I disagree, why would you penalize people who aren't good. By saying dungeons are there pinnacle? What if they don't like dungeons and want to Raid? Not to mention you have said before that you want Dungeons to be tuned for the 1% as well. Unless I am mistaken and you aren't the Aesthetics Sandbox kid that I talked to before. You say Casuals will be Raiding and able to Progress? How so if all Raid content is Tuned for the 1%? Perhaps you are underrating what that means.

    I never denied that Key Binds help make a Player better. However you act like after you accomplish this feat that you become a 1% player. If the person is simply bad at Games or Computer Games/MMOS they show little improvement and could still be considered a bad or average player.

    Time was merely an example for the Casual player. Here is the point you keep missing and I figured you would know this by now, since I mention it basically every time I reply to you yet you always misunderstand or simply try to twist it. I have NEVER said all Raid content should be accessible or Tuned for Casuals. 40 mans should be Tuned for the 1%. 20 mans should be still be HARD yet ACCESSIBLE for Casuals. You are also wrong about Bad Players and Casuals when it comes to Raiding. I use to Raid with my "Bad" Friends all the time in Wrath, we simply did Norm 10 mans and Norm 25 mans. What is wrong with that? 25 man heroics I did with my Progression Guild. See an easy way to Tune Raiding for Every Player. Even if they make 20 mans the way I figure they will and stated above. We might not be able to clear it, but we probably could down a couple of bosses. Which is all the fun of Raiding they would want. PLEASE I hope this finally clears it up and you don't reply with, "You want to make all Raid content Easy."

    I agree with making Dungeons progressive since that is what I stated in my first post. However, why do you keep mentioning Dungeons and Raids as if they are equal? I know a lot of people, myself included that aren't Dungeons Fans yet love Raids. They aren't similar content, environment, social, rewarding, team play, etc.. you are starting to sound like my 3 year old Nephew who gives his friend the cheap old toys and doesn't want to share his good toys and believes nothing is wrong.

    You are wrong again. You need balance. If catering to the 1% was so good, then why don't current MMOs do it? Simple, because catering to the 1% is what they are, 1% of the Gaming Pop. This is why almost all MMOs simply say <REDACTED> the 1% and try to appease the 99% since there is obviously where the profit is. WildStar is different in the fact that they plan on not dismissing the 1%, however obviously they need to appease to the 99% as well in all areas. In this they plan on releasing a balanced game. I also keep telling you that the community that follow the 1% are simply the Puppet Community or in other terms the Groupie Community. You are probably a VIP in that community or at least sound like it.

    Once again the Arrogance and simple disregard. "I don't think Bad players need to be doing raiding, therefore they don't need to do dungeons." REALLY? So now in your mind Bad players shouldn't get any Raid Content or Dungeon Content? And then you finish it off with a go Learn how to play the Game better.

    These are the moments, when you wish the Game was out already.
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  14. Zellfel

    Zellfel Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think you misunderstand the point I was making. I'm not championing the game, or the raid content to be designed for or against the hardcore raiding 1% master race. I'm championing quality game design, something to keep the players hooked regardless of playstyle or skill.

    The point I was trying to make is that I would like the devs to focus on delivering one high quality raid with a set difficulty instead of multiple watered down versions of it. I agree with your points that there needs to be content for all types of players but the idea that you have to tone down raid content so all players can see it has lead to some very poor design issues. Do not compromise quality for the sake of creating "accessibility." SWTOR was the perfect example of how creating content to be too accessible leads to poor player retention. Aside from gameplay problems, people blew through raid content in no time when it came out. People were quitting in droves, and did any of them beat the Nightmare mode versions of the raids? No, they quit after they beat the normal versions of the raids and said "Oh this game's too easy, there's nothing to do." Your 20 man for lower tier players and 40 man for hardcore players is a great idea, but if there's a gear imbalance between the two it's going to create issues regardless.

    Trying to cater to everyone with the same content is bad design because instead of delivering a quality experience, you deliver multiple half hearted experiences. I do not want the same issue to happen in Wildstar that I saw in SWTOR. I want there to be more to do at level cap than raiding the same raid in 3 different difficulties and pvp. Raise the bar, raise the expectation of your players. Along with those raised expectations, teach them how to play the game IN gameplay so that when they reach level cap it's not a shock to do what's expected in dungeons and maybe even in raids. To use a classic gaming example, would you feel more proud of beating the original Castlevania by learning how to play the game properly? Would you still feel proud if you used a game genie and toned the game down to make it easier for you?

    Gaming companies have been lowering the bar on game design for years to make safe and accessible games in order to sell to the masses. I would like Wildstar to step out of that mindset and teach its playerbase to play a well designed game that actually has goals to strive for. Ones that actually take time to work on in which you develop relationships with people you play with (and not the cheap cop-out design of blocking content with reputation grinds that prevent gear progression).
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  15. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

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    I answered most of this in my above post. Once again I agree with most of what you said. I believe some of your worries are misplaced though. I am almost positive they won't do a difficulty switch like in Swtor and WoW. From what I keep hearing both 20 mans and 40 mans will be two entirely different Raids.

    What I am simply getting at is make the 20 man Hard yet Accessible to Casuals and make 40 mans for the 1%. I'll repeat myself from my above post, this doesn't mean make 20 mans easy, simply make it Hardcore yet doable for Casuals. The Gear Imbalance you mentioned is also simple. 20 mans get one Tier below 40 mans due to how the difficulty is Tuned. Will some people whine about this, of course. However you will have people whining about everything. You simply can't please everyone. This would be a way better Balance system for Raid content, then simply Tune all Raids for the 1%. I know everyone likes to believe they are in that 1%, however if it really is Tuned for the 1% then you might get only 1-4 guilds that are able to actually clear it and clearing it again will be hell every week. Do you really only want 1-4 Raiding Guilds to be able to clear 20 mans and 40 mans?
  16. Zellfel

    Zellfel Cupcake-About-Town

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    Which I said I have no problem with your idea, as long as if Carbine implements it they stick to their guns. As I said, and have always said, I want one set difficulty that's high quality instead of 3 accessible difficulties that are mediocre quality. I've raided since TBC and have seen all the ups and downs of current raid design. Do you mean 1-4 guilds on the server? If so, that already happens. 1-4 guilds in the world? No, that's bad design. You're emphasizing the extremes of each direction while I'm agreeing with you that extremes are terrible design and prefer somewhere in the middle. It doesn't have to be insanely difficult but it doesn't have to be a snorefest to cater to people who can't or won't put the effort in to improve. The one thing I always hate hearing is "I'm playing a game, it shouldn't feel like a job." It's an excuse to not want to improve and there will always be players touting that somewhere. It doesn't mean that the game should reward it by giving them easy content at the sacrifice of quality.

    To go back to my original gripe with LFR, it doesn't teach the majority of the playerbase anything. As long as your healers had a pulse and were paying attention, you could go through entire fights while completely ignoring the mechanics. The exception to that being LFR spirit kings, where if the tank blindly charged in on the first boss he got his balls wrecked. I'm all for your suggestion of 20 mans being for less elite players, as long as it still requires you to put an effort into it. If then your "bad" friends still can't do the job, then I'm sorry to say they don't deserve the rewards. They're seeing the content just fine, and I'm sure there will be plenty of other content in the game for them.
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  17. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I'm not saying aim the dungeons to be the pinnacle of the bad players, but some people will fall into that category, and that's not a failure on anyone's part. It just means that Carbine made the dungeons challenging and probably fun for the players that enjoy that content. If the bad players don't like it, or fail over and over and never overcome it, that's fine, they definitely shouldn't be raiding, because it's kinda rude to the other 19 or 39 players to have to fail over and over due to that one (or handful) of people who simply won't learn it. (There's a small population of players incapable of learning or improving their gameplay.)

    I'm not opening up the can of worms of motivating raiders... Yet...

    I think casual players play less often than hardcore raiders. Let's assume that hardcore raiders take 10 hours to progress through each boss the first time (on average). This means on a raid with 12 raid bosses it would take 120 hours to progress through. Now assume these players play 40 hours a week, this means that it'll take the hardcore players about 3 weeks to progress through that content ~4 weeks if you include time spent on non-progression boss fights. This speaks nothing of skill level, just of time they play.

    Similarly, if you take an "equivalent" casual group in skill, that raids 6 hours a week (3 raid nights at 2 hours a piece). And we assume that each boss takes 8 hours to progress through (because you assume that progression happens increasingly fast based on having an increase in gear level as they raid, as compared to the hardcore which end up doing the whole raid in less weeks with less upgrades.) This gets a bit more complicated because you have to add farm time, but to make it somewhat reasonable, let's say 6 bosses per hour of pre-cleared content, and then continue on the 8 hours per boss on progression.

    This means it'll take about 21 weeks barring nerfs for a casual guild to get down all of the bosses. Except that's not really true either, because at about week 6 guides come out on bosses, to help Casual guilds with strategies. This means that the progressive time is probably closer to 4 hours after week 6. This means at about week 14 a casual guild will have cleared the content. That's about 3-4 months, which is not unreasonable. Even the 5 months isn't unreasonable.

    Now if you continue to pump out content for hardcore guilds, this means the casual guilds will have somewhere to progress, and you don't have to wait for guilds to "catch up" in order to start hitting the next tier of content. This means that not only do hardcore players not have to be farming content forever before they get something that freshens their game, but also that casual players will have a constant progression they can go through. They can then begin to pick and choose what they want to progress on based on risk/rewards of the newer content and the gear upgrades from it.

    I wasn't trying to imply you were saying there was no advantage to Key Binding, just pointing out that a player can become better by doing that alone. It's a simple solution which should be ingrained in the player base by now is all, and I think it's due to apathy that players aren't adopting it, no matter how good or bad they are. Sometimes it's about patience of the better players to teach the worse players, this is important as well. It's ok if they're bad right now, but if they refuse to learn, why are they raiding? It's not a very good attitude to bring for raiding, the whole, "I'm good everyone else is wrong, I just need more gear." I hope you can agree with that... I mean yeah to an extent gear is needed, but these aren't the people I'm referring to as "bad."

    I don't understand why that person needs to be raiding. It's supposed to be an experience where it's high pressure and a lot of fun by overcoming a challenge as a group. A player who is bad or average could have an enjoyable progression feeling on dungeons as well, and work through it with a smaller group that means less pressure.

    So, I think we just need to clear up our definition of "bad" players. My definition is that they aren't particularly good, and they refuse to get better. It's ok if they're progressing, and able to overcome content, and I don't see a problem with gear being part of that progression. I think we are actually speaking very similarly along the same terms otherwise. I don't see it as a problem if a casual guild of skilled players takes longer to progress than a hardcore guild, I also don't see it a problem if players who are currently unskilled and are learning to not fully clear the content. But I do see an issue with tuning content towards unskilled players who refuse to learn. I think we agree on this.

    Ok, so, I think I need to clarify here. Let me attempt it with a table, maybe this will help:

    Type of Player Content Ability
    Hardcore Raiding (both 20 and 40 mans)
    Casual "Skilled" Full/Partial clear Raiding (both 20 and 40 mans) (dependent on time)
    Casual "Mediocre" Partial clear Raiding (both 20 and 40 mans)
    Casual "Unskilled" Full clear on Dungeons possibly some Raiding (both 20 and 40 man)
    Casual "Baddies" Possibly partial clear on dungeons

    So, I'd say your friends in this case would fall into the "Mediocre" players, who know their classes, can learn to play, just have slower reactions.

    If you looked at what I described the 1% as it actually fits well. It's just the front end of the bell curve in levelling. If they get to max level and have a nice progression path, and then through word of mouth tell other players it's good, then the players will tend to stick around to try it themselves. On the other hand if they get to end level and the end game is broken and not fun, word of mouth will mean that the other players may get to the end and try it for themselves, but their confidence in the game gets shattered overall. This is what I'm speaking about.

    Also, if you make the progression at end game for the hardcore, then it'll still be a good progression for the rest of the community. Who cares if it takes you 14 weeks instead of 4 to down the content as long as you enjoyed the progression of it?

    Woah, you totally took that the wrong way. First let's put in place my definition of "bad players" with the ones that refuse to learn or get better. Second, if you aren't raiding, you do not need to do dungeons, because the gear from the dungeons are simply to progress to raiding. You can still do the dungeons if you want, but due to the player's not wanting to learn to play better, they will likely fail. This also is probably because the player does not want to work with a group, so they really have no business raiding. But no, I don't think raiding should ever be geared towards the players who aren't very good and refuse to get better, it's for the players who want to get better at the game, and improve their strategies and progress. Again, this is all under the assumption of bad players being those which refuse to get better and are generally not good.
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  18. Veckna

    Veckna Well-Known Cupcake

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    Ah I knew about the mentoring, just didn't know how they'd sort out rewards although if they're essentially giving out level cap rewards for lower level content people are likely to just find the easiest one to farm and hammer that. Guess it depends on how they do it (which was why I liked the consumables/crafting mat style rewards you could get from alms in BoI as opposed to scaled gear) something else on the 'wait for more info and see' list :D
  19. mysticjbyrd

    mysticjbyrd Cupcake-About-Town

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    They don't tell the community, well some do, but many don't read the forums or follow the game they are playing. They only find out there is no end game content when they get to the end.
  20. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    The most recent MMORPG interview with Mike Donatelli says something along the lines of you level down and receive rewards for the higher level. Not entirely sure on the specifics, but it's basically really similar to what you mentioned from what I can tell. Apparently there's a max level analogue to xp as well. I doubt they'll give out other significant rewards for max level. Also, mats could be fine as long as it's significantly less than what you'd get from actually going and getting them in the world.

    [Sarcasm]So you're saying these are not the players that produce raid guides, stream videos, often are sponsored and doing interviews? They aren't the ones able to talk in game to players on the server? These people have no contacts to others in the game so they can't spread things via word of mouth?[/Sarcasm]

    I'd tend to disagree...
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