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LFD, Accessibility and Different Audiences

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by azmundai, Jul 1, 2013.

  1. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    I disagree with this assertion. Lfr is a disgrace, and is not a raid as sheer group size does not a raid make. Much in the same way that Portal is inherently not a first person shooter. I firmly believe in Gaffney's take that the game should be designed to train people to become that "1%" hardcore audience. As much as Woke wants to protest, the majority of the "1%" are not superstar athletes. The skill ceiling is far too low for that. With time and effort everyone can see everything. It may take more time for some than others, and they may not want to spend that time, but that does not stop it from being the case. Gear and experience (both of that specific encounter/mechanic and of your class/group mates) nerf encounters over time regardless of the actual numbers changing. Whats there, anyone can do if they have a will to. Vanilla, Bc, Wrath, WoW has always been that way. If people "can't" get better then they either do not actually want to (more likely) or they have the wrong teacher (less likely, but possible).

    I agree that 40 mans should get the "best" rewards. It is likely to be the "hardest" content. That does not mean that those who like smaller raids should not find their endgame in 20 mans. And it does not mean that 20 mans will not be used as a stepping stone into 40's regardless (better gear is always better, hurray for circles!). Same with 5 mans. As far power of rewards go, I feel the difference between pve and pvp gear should be greater (in terms of how useful one is in the others arena) and I believe that solo'ers should not be rewarded anywhere near aswell. Solo is too easy.
  2. Ark

    Ark Cupcake-About-Town

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    yeah i dont actually agree with this. in no way at all do i think they should want the 99% to try and become the 1%. i think people should want to improve, and try to improve, up to a lvl they are comfortable with and enjoy. i honestly think some people are taking this GAME far too seriously. If you want to strive to be a part of the 1%, go for it. fantastic. but to suggest that EVERYONE should be trying to is just unrealistic.

    also, please do not say that you AGREE that 40mans should hav ethe best rewards. if i said that, it was not my intent. i said that the hardest content should have the best rewards. i did not mention that 40man should have better rewards than 20man.
  3. Ark

    Ark Cupcake-About-Town

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    not sure what made SSC, BT and Mag 1% content?
  4. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

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    So only the Pro Athletes that are born with a high Level of Talent make it to the Hall of Fame? All other Athletes are simply molded? So you can Mold ANY kid and they will reach the Pros? Gamers talking about Sports, sigh.. I was molded as a Kid, yet why did I only get a scholarship to a D2 college? My friends were molded as Kids and some didn't even get a Scholarship and none made it to the Pros? We all put in tons of Time and Effort, yet we hit a Wall or Ceiling. This shouldn't be possible due your opinion. How come some Athletes who barely pick up the Sport in High School get D1 Scholarships and some even make into the Pros yet they weren't molded until High School? How is this possible? And no this isn't a Rare occasion. It happens every year in almost every sport. Hell Football Teams draft Basketball players every year to play TE and yet they aren't good enough to play Pro Basketball and have never been Molded to play Football. Why is this? Simple they have an amazing Talent at Jumping, Running, and Catching. Look at MJD or Ray Rice do they have the prototypical RB Physical Body like an AP? No, yet Ray Rice is a Top 5 RB in the world and MJD is a Top Ten RB in the World. These are Players with the Same Physic that I have seen from my Friends and the common person, but what separates them? Is it simply their Time and Effort? or being Molded since being a Kid? No, it is all of the above and the Main Reason being their Talent. Simply look at the turnout Rate from High school to College, then College to Pros. Due you honestly believe this is due to lack of Time and Effort? Or simply because they weren't molded as a kid good enough? Damn I can go on forever with examples, but this is becoming a massive wall of Text.

    Simple all Pro Athletes have Talent at a High Level. Once again like I stated before even among the World Class Athletes, some even have a greater Ceiling. As far as the Hall of Fame goes. The majority of those are the ones that are able to Max out their Talent and Skill with Time and Effort, but to simply Dismiss Talent is ridiculous. Not to mention they have to succeed in that Sport.

    Was never talking about better than Average. Even though I disagree. I would say the skill Level to become an Average Gamer is low. Yes, some older people fall into that category, however it is not just them. I am surprised at some of you guys as Gamers though. Do you guys not have any Friends, a Girlfriend, or Siblings? You are telling me that you guys have never come across someone who simply sucks at Games? Some of my Friends that play FPS Games simply suck, yet they play them constantly. My Sister plays Zombie Games constantly, yet can't beat them or dies repeatedly and spends hours on the easiest Skill Level and eventually clears the game. Then she tries to Advance to the next Difficulty and has no chance. Why is this? Simple she hit her Ceiling as far as a Gamer. She puts plenty of Time and Effort so why can she not get to highest Level of Skill? This notion that anyone can reach in or within the 1% in any area of life without some high level of Skill and Talent amazes me. Even if it was possible to achieve this with simple Time and Effort or being molded, (not saying it is) then it would definitely be a one in a million or one in a thousand scenario. Definitely not a common occurrence.

    We agree on this. It contradicts some of your #1 and #2 statements but I agree.

    I disagree. If it is truly 1% Tuned Content then the Entry Boss would probably be Tuned around for the 5%, not the Average Player, which would be somewhere around the Mid Level %. If they Nerf the old Tiered Content then of course players can progress through. It will not longer be Tuned for the 1%. My point is you can give the Average Player one Tier of Gear as a handicap and they still wouldn't be able to clear old content Tuned for the 1%. Maybe two Tiers could be enough, but even then I would have to see it.
  5. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

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    I believe we are all Aware of this. We are simply using it as a Representation for the Top End Players.
  6. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    I said they had plenty of content to do - I guess you believe that 1% raiders didnt care for any of those instances? They were bored by KT, Vashj, Bloodboil, Illidan Council. etc. I mean I know you said that Mag and Gruul were pug fights, so I guess they didnt like Mag either?
  7. mysticjbyrd

    mysticjbyrd Cupcake-About-Town

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    Simple, you didn't put enough time/effort/drugs in, or you lacked talent, or any combination of all. Many suburban kids don't even know what effort is. You think showing up for practice is effort? That isn't effort. Kids in Central America live breadth and sleep baseball. Its a mix between talent, effort, and drugs. They are all important, but you could easily lack one to some degree and still be pro material.

    The 1% isn't actually the 1%, that is just a saying popularized back in Vanilla when only like 1% defeated C'thun. The average player isn't at 50%, because that suggest 100% of the people are actively raiding. I don't know the % of people who will be raiding in WS, and no one else does either, which is why they use the phrase the 1%.

    Besides, no matter how difficult the content it can be overcome by anyone as long as they outgear it. I watched average players beat Heroic LK and Deathwing. Sure the content was nerfed, but they didn't have any real gear advantage either.
  8. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Mag and Gruul were pug fights once they got nerfed into the ground. KT and Vashj were "1%" fights but the rest of the instance was not really the case, which is why so many were overjoyed when they removed the attunements that kept them out of the much easier Hyjal and the first couple bosses of BT, which all dropped better loot than KT/Vashj anyway for those slots.

    Anyway, I find it pretty repugnant that anyone who is not in that demographic attempting to state who has enough content period.
  9. Ark

    Ark Cupcake-About-Town

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    ok thats way off topic. if a 1% player enjoys easier content then of course he has every right to go and enjoy it. i thought it was very clear that when we talk about content for each group, we are talking about content they will be actively progressing on. obviously anyone in the 1% has access to all the easier content.....

    the only exception i made is including all those raids. sure, some of the bosses where tough, even for the 1%, but a huge amount of it was trampled quite quickly.
  10. Ark

    Ark Cupcake-About-Town

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    i think our idea of AVERAGE is probably different. If they killed H-LK and H-DW while it was current, even with the buff, they would not fit into the AVERAGE player ability scale. Sure, they where nothing amazing, but the AVERAGE? you need to remember the number of raiders during DS who did not even see DW on normal, let alone Heroic.

    But most of all, i just find it funny people are still arguing over the 1% thing. as i have said many times, that is one of the reasons i dislike the term, is that it seems to mean something different to everyone. but as....i think it was invictus? said, it was in referance to the number of PLAYERS who had cleared naxx40.

    to adress the "number of players who will raid" part, thats the joy of percentages. the actuall number is not important. if we conclude that the 1% is actually just a phase used to define the top players in the world, server first and 2nd only, you might stretch it to 5%. the problem comes when people claim to be a 1%'er, because they got server 9th LK kill.

    anyways, considering all the strong opinions im surprised no one has taken me up on my offer to use the data i provided and construct their own version of what lvl of skill (1-5) should have access to what content (the raids i made up)
  11. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    I was trying to understand an example of an instance or fights that you think the 1% would be happy with.

    It was always my impression that those players enjoyed themselves in the Vanilla and BC raids, which is why I gave those examples. It would be easier to understand the ideas that people have, if specifics were used instead of vague terms.
  12. mysticjbyrd

    mysticjbyrd Cupcake-About-Town

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    I was actually clarifying what the 1% actually meant in my post. I think most people, at least now, know that it is just a phrase. We don't think its an actual statistic, but it refers to heroic raiding, so we all seem to be on the same page.

    I will be honest, I only read about half of that huge post. I figured you were going to keep going on about your 5 raid idea, and to me that just didn't seem feasible, which is what I wrote up top.

    All those people can make progress, all be it much slower progress, through one large raid in which the difficulty increases as you go deeper.

    I am sick of 1%. I will call them hardcore raiders. The hardcore raiders will clear the end boss before the next raid tier comes. Then the 1st raid tier is nerfed, and more and more people progress through it. Some people in the 1st tier, might wander into the 2nd tier to get more gear to fight the end boss (Very tough) in the 1st tier. Then 3rd tier comes, etc...
  13. Ark

    Ark Cupcake-About-Town

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    so im assuming by that you mean "name wow stuff". The current tier of wow is recieving very, very good praise from the top raiders. The 1% need content that they cannot just clear in a week. That is not good for them, and although not fatal, its not great for the game either.

    What everyone needs to accept is that the skill level or ability of players in any mmo, but specifically those playing wow, is so amazingly high that the devs are struggling to challange them without just throwing out HUGE numbers. Content that was fun in bc would be CRUSHED by the current crop of 1% raiders who are raiding up to 18 hours a day. The russian crew are an extreme example, but a real one.

    We tend to look back at vanilla and bc with rose tinted glasses, and say it was very tough and challanging, but when you watch the interviews with the guys who did it then, and still do it now, they all seem to say the same thing : the content was easy, it was just the logistics that where hard. They had a lot of artificial walls back then, attunements, gearing requirements (4 tanks etc) and the stacking of classes, not to mention 40ppl vs 25ppl, it was a lot more time consuming. But the fight mechanics? they do not even compare in any way to what wow has now.

    So what i am saying is we cannot only look back and say "it worked in BC, lets do that" because the entire community has changed, and the skillset that the top raiders have is completely different. It is important Carbine look at the past and say "well, that worked back then, lets see how we can adapt it to work in todays market", rather than "well, that worked back then, lets do it again".
    Inv1cted likes this.
  14. Ark

    Ark Cupcake-About-Town

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    im sure we can keep using 1%. To me it is Realm 1st and 2nd, and thats it. I dont care if you raid hardmodes, if you are not server first or 2nd, not interested. The only reason i add 2nd in is that on a lot of servers, one faction is FAR ahead of the other numbers wise, and sometimes that causes the other faction to lag behind a litte, but theres really no excuse. Want to call yourself a hardcore raider? or a 1%? sure. np. Better not be getting no server 9ths though.

    Edit - just read again. im kind of surprised that you think it is not possible? why exactly? if you want to combine the 20man raids into 1 raid, and combine the 40man raid into 1 raid, thats fine......but i really dont see how it is not possible.....

    I can referance wow if you want, but the latest patch provided a 12 boss raid, with 13 hardmodes of the same raid (one hardmode only boss), and ofc the well loved lfr with the same 12 bosses again, and 2 new world bosses, so 15 bosses all up. now remember though, this covers THREE difficulties... so an LFR raider gets 14 bosses, a normal mode raider gets 14 bosses, and a Heroic raider gets 15 bosses. How is Wildstar going to compete with that?

    MoP launched with 2 world bosses, 2 different 6 boss raids, and a 4 boss raid, so 18 bosses all up., other than the world bosses, all raids had 3 difficulties, so again, LFR had 16 bosses, normal had 16 bosses, and heroic raiders had 16 bosses.

    so yes, the numbers are high, for a reason. to try and show the progression in a clear way. if really find it quite offensive when ppl say "i didnt read your post cos i thought it was bad but i am going to give you my opinion on it anyways"​
  15. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

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    Now you include Drugs and you didn't touch on any of my examples. Drugs are simply a cheat. A comparison would be you didn't succeed in Math in High school since you didn't use cheat sheets. You also come off as if Drugs are a Basic thing for every athlete. Well in cycling that is the case. First, showing up for practice is Effort, some Athletes don't even need practice to become Pro. Simply, because of their Raw Talent. While some need to put in more Effort outside of Practice, however even so if they lack Talent they won't be becoming a pro any time soon.

    Wrong, you can lack Effort and become pro material. You can't lack Talent and become pro material. Drugs are simply a cheat, but why do Athletes take these Drugs? Is it because they lack Effort or Talent? Obviously, they take them because they lack Talent and they need to catch up. Or they take them because they have a High Level of Talent yet don't stand out, so they take them to surpass to an even higher Level of Talent.

    You misunderstood. They were simple Representation Examples. Which is why I said an Average Player is somewhere around the Mid Level %. I guess I should of mentioned we are talking about the Raiders and not the General Pop. Figured this would be a basic assumption, when discussing End Game Raiding.

    Do you know what Nerfing Content means? Yes, the Average Player can down Heroic content if they outgear it and it is nerfed, which in my opinion Heroic Content wasn't Solely Tuned for the 1% but for any Semi-Hardcore Guild or Hardcore Guild, probably something like the Top 20% of Raiders could clear the content. They don't need a Gear Advantage to clear Nerfed Content.
  16. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    How long did it take the current wow tier to be beaten?
  17. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

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    This is a very important observation. Alot of the time people are like 'Back in BC only like 10 guilds had cleared Kael by the time Hyjal came out now guilds are clearing hardmodes in 3 weeks why is WoW so easy'
    Completely forget;
    ~Gear was horribly optimised
    ~Classes were horribly optimised
    ~Specs were horribly optimised
    ~Player skill wasn't as condensed
    ~Less then half the resources existed then that exist now (EJ, boss fight vids, etc)

    If you put Paragon in level appropriate but MoP style optimised gear with MoP optimised classes they would melt Kael in a week at worst.
  18. mysticjbyrd

    mysticjbyrd Cupcake-About-Town

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    I can agree that current heroics in WoW are tuned for semi-hardcore guilds, but I think that is a good place to tune them.

    I think WS should aim for something similar to TBC tuning in WoW.
  19. mysticjbyrd

    mysticjbyrd Cupcake-About-Town

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    The thing is I don't consider this a valid argument. True much of the game's difficulty came from other sources, but that doesn't mean it wasn't there. The fights were still difficult, which is evident by the number of people who completed the content. Today the dungeon guide practically tells you the strat. I remember having to develop it ourselves.

    To say current day Hardcore raiders are better is definitely a case of some rose tinted goggles. Numbers speak louder than words, and the numbers are there, and they say something completely different. Pure basic logic should tell us that gamers haven't miraculously increased in talent over the span of less than a decade. Humans are still humans with the same basic limitations.
  20. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    I don't believe people were saying that about the first tier in Cata, with Nef, Chogall, and Sinestra, I didn't hear that from my experience. After Firelands, yes, but that first tier I heard nothing but praise for and that it was the closest to Van/BC raiding that the hardcore people had seen.

    On the Paragon vs Kael thing, I would be skeptical, but even all those things in your list...the devs tuned Kael based on those, so the fight would still be tuned based on what players had.

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