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LFD, Accessibility and Different Audiences

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by azmundai, Jul 1, 2013.

  1. mysticjbyrd

    mysticjbyrd Cupcake-About-Town

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    What does server first have to do with it? You can easily get server first, and still be way way down the list in world. There is a difference between world first guilds and hardcore guilds. They aren't even remotely the same thing. A hardcore guild might aim for server first, but on a server like Kel'thuzad with 30k players it's not going to be easy. They could still beat out tons of other servers though. Does that mean they aren't hardcore? No!

    Hardcore = intensely loyal
    Hardcore Raider = intensely loyal Raider

    The term hardcore only means the amount of effort you put forth to raiding, not necessarily your progress. That is the only thing remains constant between hardcore guilds, time put forth raiding. The problem with this definition comes with progress. If you raid 7 nights a week, but can't finish the current raid tier, then are you a hardcore raider? I would say yes. You might say no, but whatever, its a made up internet definition. I just don't feed your definition is adequate.


    I don't see it as feasible because you are asking them to make 5 completely different raids each tier. That is a lot of work, and is going to be very expensive.

    Compete with what? Raid difficulties? We don't like raid difficulties, or at least I and many others don't. No matter how you slice it, its still only 15 bosses.

    I didn't say it was bad. I just assumed it you were going to go into further details about your idea. An idea I was certain I didn't like from the start.
  2. The Duck

    The Duck New Cupcake

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    Since I like definitions so much
    You define hardcore/casual<16 years old or bored, you pick.

    So tired of this conversation.
  3. Myrrdhinn

    Myrrdhinn Well-Known Cupcake

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    <Moderator growl> Okay, guys.. Please calm the heck down! Forcing your opinion on others is never a good thing and we don't like it either. Please be civil with each other or we'll close this thread for good. </Moderator growl>
  4. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I apologize if this was answered already, but wanted to quickly comment while I remembered. The comment you're referring to is that it's nerfed naturally through getting better items.
  5. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    No it doesn't, it was made for everyone when they were lvl 5, they either had to do it to get past level 5, skipped it for some reason, but could come back and do it at lvl 6 if it was too hard at lvl 5.

    The 1%'s content which is truly designed for them, would be a raid that even they struggle to get through, and could take getting perfect gear to get through it. They may even need more gear from the next tier to complete the raid. This doesn't mean the entire raid cannot be beat, but you get through a couple bosses then you hit a wall, which you eventually get over. Eventually the next tier comes out, and you start downing bosses in it, then go back and complete the previous raid with the extra performance boost.

    This means instead of nerfing content, they'll just release some more content and see how the players do with it.
  6. FlamingRuby

    FlamingRuby Cupcake-About-Town

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    Recently i have started playing yet again Rift and i have to say that LFD is actually a tool.Its a starting tool to do dungeons that provide some gear so you can enter later Raids.
    The requirements for entering Dungeons are decent considering that you don't have to actually improve your Gear but also find gear that provide the stats necessary so you will actually contribute to the dungeon you are going.
    Finding that gear requires many things including going outside in the world(Without flying mounts that make everything faster),crafting,doing World events,Rifts and many more.In general requires for you to interact with people and co-op so you can achieve your goals.
    LFD doesn't provide by all means the best gear in game and as i said its a tool considering it doesn't drop the best items before raids at all slots(F.E essences,seals,capes).
    On the other hand entering LFG at World of Warcraft is really easy.Most of the times you can achieve it without even have to buy anything from the auction house or by buying some PvP gear(That is a big problem cause the stats are bad but doesn't matter cause only ilvl counts).
    Rift provides some awesome dungeons with a variety of bosses.Hard,Easy and moderate.Trash can be also hard.At World of Warcraft everything is easy.Even in Greens you can tank/heal everything without a problem and finish the dungeon.
    In conclusion i want to say that its not the tool that is actually bad.Its how the company creates it.If they provide challenging dungeons and dungeons provide some gear to enter raids it is all fine.My only minor disagreement is that is Cross-realm(I know that you can have the option to choose only realm).
    If LFD is a tool i don't have a problem.If i can lets say have to take some gear from dungeons but also have other optional like crafting,world events or something like rifts i am all fine.
    Most people don't like LFD(And i agree with them) for mainly 2 reasons.First one is how easy dungeons became so people can actually complete them.And also Cross-realm dungeons because people can ninja items for whatever reason(F.E Disenchant) and have no consequences considering the chance to meet them again is minimal.If i can also add a 3rd reason is the fact that dungeons in most games provide really really easy epics.

    Sorry for the lost post.
  7. Ark

    Ark Cupcake-About-Town

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    And this was the exact reason i dont like the term 1%. First it is the top 1% of raiders in the world (the 1% that downd naxx40). Then it waters down to the best guilds on each server, then it waters down to "anyone who raids a lot", and then its about loyalty. This is part of what causes the difficulty to get watered down as well. As more and more people include themselves in the 1%, it becomes less and less elite.

    Im starting to see why game devs struggle so much. Its hard to create a difficulty system that people will like when they dont even seem to know what they want themselves. This entire thread is full of negative attitudes towards almost every aspect of raiding, difficulty wise, and yet even when presented with a great oportunity to put forward their idea of an ideal difficulty curve, no one has been able to put forward a POSATIVE suggestion. Its still all "no that wont work", "no, i dont like that", "no, they cannot make that many bosses".

    So i ask again, where are the alternative ideas? Because at this stage, raiding in Wildstar is doomed to fail since none of you seem to know what you want, so how on earth are the devs expected to provide it? Instead of talking in generalised terms, which seems to cause a lot of confusion and argument, i have suggested using my post as an example.

    And just to make it clear, my intention was not to suggest that they make 5 raids for every tier. Not at all. That was an example of the FIRST tier of content. Also, you could easily combine TMRA and B, and FMRA and B. Making it 3 raids. After that if you feel they need to remove 1 boss from each, fine.

    And just to keep going with this, it was 18 bosses - 3 entirely unique raids and 2 unique world bosses. The three difficulties is absolutely important, in fact its vital. It is a major reason that wow is able to appeal to so many players. If it was all LFR, they would lose a HUGE portion of their raiders. If it was all heroic only, they would lose MOST of their raiders. If it was just normal mode, they would retain a solid portion of their raiders, but they would lose the interest of the more experienced and skilled raiders. And this is exactly what i am trying to explain. How will Wildstar attract and keep the interest of a large cross section of the mmo community?

    So i again challange everyone to provide an alternative difficulty set up, with specific examples of how it might work, rather than just saying "i hope its hard" or "NO LFR!"
  8. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    Not sure if this has anything to do with the thread but: Currently in World of Warcraft 426 guilds have done something only 1.44% of the guilds have done. Now that's more than 1% but that amount only takes raiding guilds in to the calculation, not people who are guildless or who do not raid, or who are in guilds wich do not raid at all.

    It's reasonably easy to belong in to 1% at the playerbase at the moment.
  9. Solarthermal

    Solarthermal Cupcake

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    You think content is made easier because you dont understand internet definition? Is this joke or am I misunderstand something?

    Why not just copy TBC? Difficulties not needed. Game peaked in wrath with only heroic difficulty. LFR is travesty.
  10. Ark

    Ark Cupcake-About-Town

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    that is not at all what i said. What i said, quite clearly, is that more and more people consider themselves to be part of the elite 1%, when they are actually not. As such, they struggle with content they are not skilled enough to be attempting, and cry on the forums about the content being to hard. As a result, it has been watered down over the last few yeas. Sure, there is still some very hard content, and some very, very tough heroic content, but it is starting to thin out.

    As far as why not just copy TBC.....well thats very simple and i have already mentioned it a couple of times. TBC was a very long time ago. Things have changed a lot. Players expectations have changed a lot. The community has moved on and is progressing. Many players enjoyed TBC at the time, but we cannot say whether the same players would enjoy a similar design now. We should be trying to move FORWARD, not backward.

    You mention a peak in Wrath, and i personally enjoyed raiding in Wrath the most. Now you say, "with only heroics". Well, that is far more than "only" that is an entirely new tier of content every patch for the 1% and others to attempt. It is not at all trivial, in fact, as i said, it was and is one of the keys to the ongoing success of wow.

    Earlier i mentioned that the content in BC was acceptable to players THEN. The skill of the average player, but also the top tier players has gone up dramatically since then. It is clear that any of the top guilds today would have absolutely destroyed BC content. Many of them have said so themselves. The complexity of fights has gone up exponentially with each expansion. Again this is something many 1%'ers talk about. One of the main reasons this has been able to happen is the introduction of Heroic raiding. It allows the devs to cater to Two distinct groups of players with one set of content. They are able to tailor the same raid to both average skilled players, and those players who either are, or at least want to be part of the 1%.

    I have already said that i do not want LFR in wildstar. I defend its existance in wow, but i do not want to see it in Wildstar. And i am not saying i want it. I am not even saying i want more than one difficulty, i am just trying to explain how much harder it will be for Wildstar to balance content to appeal to a wide audience if they focus on only one difficulty.

    yet again someone replies with a negative post, rather than accepting the challange of laying down how they feel it could be done right. Its not a lot to ask. Just stop trying to epeen and fight for one minute, and answer the question, in detail :

    How would you set up the first raid tier of wildstar?
  11. Solarthermal

    Solarthermal Cupcake

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    I think you do not understand what the developers are trying. In my opinion, from everything I've seen are pulling for a niche market that loved old WoW, but it has been offline for a long time with them. I am one of those people. TBC is the difficulty that has to be and be. We do not want the content trivial.

    All you seem to want to do is complain about the definition of an internet phrase, and insist everyone is being negative.

    TBC is our solution, it seems be route WS takes. Just because the idea was done before doesn't make it bad or outdated. Sometimes one has to go back to go forward.
  12. Vexed

    Vexed Cupcake-About-Town

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    As a player that is the 'real' 1% some of the things you say are correct but you have a couple of scewed views. Personally I wouldn't mind if the content was easier than WoWs heroics currently, I would be pissed if they were on the same levels as current normals though. What made TBC so amazing was that it wasn't accessible to every man, his dog and his dog's fleas. Prestige needs to be preserved in end game raiding by not opening everything to the masses. Raiding should be a carrot on a stick, you want it? Then go and get it. You can't put the time In or don't possess the talent or skill? Tough, live with it or skill up.

    To answer your question I would create raids like tier 5 were in wow. Bosses that had a variety of difficulty levels with the final boss being a total cock block until you gained enough gear and experience to over come the challenge. I would also add in a form of attunements to drive people to raid, if they can't over come that hurdle then maybe raiding is for said person. 20 and 40 man would be exclusive from each other having 20mans as a stepping stone or side raid for people that don't want to play in the 40s as they prefer smaller raids. I would then like to see future 20man raids as a step up so 20 mans have there own progression path.

    The player base will not be as strong on the whole to begin as WoW has matured to breed a certain type of hardcore player. They will not flock to WS en masse so the average skill of guilds on the whole will be less than a top 100 wow guild. The first tier needs to be engaging, prestigious and competative. There needs to be the ohh ahh factor when you see a raider running through a city with badass gear. The game needs to rake in the players that share the same opinions and feelings as I. Wildstar doesn't need to try and attract WoWs current player base as that is a recipe for failure. lfr lovers and accessibility prophets can go else where, there are already other games on the market that are accessible go and play them.

    As tiers go on, I would love to see dynamic hardmodes rather than a heroic toggle. One of the reasons Blizzard axed this was due to, believe it or not, it was too hard to activate some of them according to their complaints. I mean come on...if you cant activate the hard mode then maybe you shouldn't be doing the hardmodes in the first place.
  13. Solarthermal

    Solarthermal Cupcake

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    I agree with all you are saying except this one thing, and I may be misinterpreting it, so my apologies if that is the case.

    There is no reason to lock people to 1 raid until they beat the final difficult boss. That was a horrible design decision that lasted on a few months for blizzard. Some people don't like ramming their face into a brick wall. Getting gear into the next dungeon to come back is a great way to encourage real progression for less hardcore guilds.
  14. Vexed

    Vexed Cupcake-About-Town

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    Oh sure that isn't quite what I meant though. I was thinking more along the lines for the current tier. Hell I don't mind if nerfs come In after a new tier is released to give the struggling guilds a little push however what I would mind is if the title from defeating the last boss or the mount it dropped was still obtainable. Having raid to raid attunements where you have to defear big bad boss 1 for his blood and big boss 2 for his eyeball isnt a great idea however having a gate that you can get through through solo and 5 man maybe even 20 man content would be good.
  15. Solarthermal

    Solarthermal Cupcake

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    Ahh yes, I misunderstood. Again, I agree. Nerfing old content is great. Attunements outside of 40 mans is also good.

    These are things that allow casual to casual hardcore raiders to continue to progress without completely dumbing down content to LFR levels. The effort remains, and the sense of accomplishment still remains.

    I am casual hardcore raider nowadays, and I am look forward to WS raiding.
  16. Ark

    Ark Cupcake-About-Town

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    There is no reason to be so offensive. Again you dodged the question with "make it like tbc". that is not an answer. Put some effort into it if you are going to reply. I do not know what Wildstar are planning for raiding, but the difference is, i do not pretend to. I also try to avoid using terms like "we" as it is implying that everyone agrees with you, and i am the only person interested in Wildstar that does not agree. This is a very arrogant attitude that does not really hold any water.

    To say that all i want to do is complain about a definition is completely wrong agian. If you had followed this topic at all you would know i have put forward a huge amount of constructive information and opinions on the subject. But clearly, one thing that causes a lot of confusion is the idea of what a 1% raider is. If you want the content designed for the 1%, you are looking at roughly 350 guilds over the entire game, over ALL the servers. even if they are ALL 40 man guilds, and they have 50 raiders each, thats only
    17500 raiders. ove rhte entire game. And i can assure you Carbine have no intention of catering to such a tiny amount of players.


    What i love about this topic is the HUGE assumptions that are made. Anyone who defends LFR is clearly a bad player and only does LFR. Anyone who says they didnt like BC raiding model was bad and is angry because they could not get loot. It is clear from many posts that this is a common theme.
  17. jackashflash

    jackashflash Cupcake-About-Town

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    Just because someone uses our or we doesn't mean they are talking about everyone but you. That only signifies a group. Such as numerous people in this thread that seem to share the same view. Such as me, vexed, solar, etc... That is a we. In fact, you keep saying 'we' are negative, for apparently no other reason than you don't like our solution.


    Yet, every post you argue semantics about the definition of hardcore or 1%. Heck you are doing it again in this post... It is a phrase, not a statistic.


    I haven't seen anyone make those assumptions other than you just now. It's not true, so why do you care? From a business point of view I can see someone arguing for LFR. From a game health pov I can't see it. It was the worst decision blizzard ever made imo.

    Regardless, What we know about WS raiding seems to most closely resemble the type of raiding that was introduced in TBC. Raid difficulty isn't something WS seems to be interested in, and I think it is an excellent decision. I and many people prefer 1 raid difficulty. New content comes out, old content gets nerfed. Everyone progresses at their own pace without feeling their experience is cheapened by difficulties.
  18. Ark

    Ark Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yup i agree with most of this. Its just the LEVEL at which we limit access that i am trying to discuss. As you see in my wall of text on the previous page, a good portion of players are excluded from a lot of content. Only th 1%ers have access to everything, and i definately agree that there needs to be some prestige in obtaining some of the harder kills. I tried to adress this issue with special mounts, shoulders, titles, and weapons locked to only those 1% bosses.

    What i am trying to get through to people is that going full casual does not seem to retain decent numbers, and neither will going fully 'hardcore'. There needs to be a balance. I know its important for a lot of the people commenting on here to feel like a special little snowflake, yourself not included, but the truth is the 1%ers need the average player just as much as the average player needs the 1%ers. If the only content in game is tuned for hardcore players, and only hardcore players are raiding, then who are you going to show your gear off too? everyone will have the same gear.

    If there is no form of entry level raiding, then raiding in Wildstar will fail. One of the things going for BC was places like Kara, Gruuls, etc etc. These where used as a starting point for a lot of players, as there first steps into raiding. If you do not include something similar, players will leave. If players leave, the money runs out. If the money runs out - no new content for anyone.

    I have agreed with many ppl that wow went too far with LFR and with some of the tiers being overall too easy, DS being a prime example. Normal modes seem to be a good place for starting out. We did ToT normal in wow lastnight, alt casual run. One healer asked if her win sister could come, but warned she was new and just starting to raid. I agreed to take her along, as it was just a chilled casual run. She was doing about 25% of the dmg of anyone else in the raid. She was polite, and asked a lot of questions about her class, raiding in general and was clearly interested instarting to raid more often. Thats a good thing in my opinion
  19. azmundai

    azmundai Well-Known Cupcake

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    http://wildstar-central.com/index.php?threads/balance.2952/page-7


    pure speculation but it sound like they are going for the 2%TM
  20. Ark

    Ark Cupcake-About-Town

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    Old content will not be getting nerfed. The only nerf will be a "natural" nerf, by means of players getting better gear.

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