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My 2 biggest concerns with WS are,

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by FairyTailisBack, Oct 19, 2013.

  1. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    #1 P2W via CREDD.
    CREDD is trading cash for in game currency. If that currency can buy lots of powerful Bind on Equip epics, then the players with lots of disposable income, and/or questionable ethics regarding fair play, can buy these epics, and gain a head-start over the other players. Crafting is a big concern here, as they insist they are trying to make it robust.

    P2w = Pay to win
    'Win' simply means you compete in a higher bracket or win more than you statistically should given your skill & time invested. So,it is more accurately represented as,
    P2w = Pay for an advantage

    Money is not infinite, and everyone does not has the opportunity to p2w.

    Yes, it is a straight up cash for currency system, so don't be fooled into thinking you are ONLY buying another player's playtime. In fact, many of the things gold farmers do is legitimate, like farming herbs/mines. They often go about it by illegitimate means nowadays, but that wasn't always the case. Either, way they are trading items for currency, or stealing accounts to loot for currency, and not simply generating gold. The concern isn't with inflation anyways, so this is all moot anyways.

    If anything, this system just makes cash for currency even more rampant, as people aren't in fear of losing their account. It won't eliminate 3rd party sites either. Carbine is merely another distributor.

    Anytime there is cash for currency the game has an element of p2w! CREDD doesn't make Wildstar p2w, because people would have used 3rd party sites regardless. However, it does amplify the issue, as it makes it more widely used.

    The p2w could be minimal, in which you are able to maintain raiding longer & with better consumables. On the other hand, it could be extreme as well, in which you could buy a full set of end game pve or pvp gear from the AH! And anything in between is fair game!



    #2 Single player dungeons become welfare epics.
    Last I heard WS is trying to make 3 avenues of play, each avenue yields the best loot for that pursuit.
    PvP - Pvp Gear
    PvE - Solo dungeons & Small group
    Raid - Raid gear

    That PvE solo gear could very well end up like the LFR gear in Wow. Slightly inferior to the real raiding gear, but still extremely powerful for that purpose. As long as all 3 avenues progress evenly, one could even skip numerous tiers of raid content.

    So, why am I not worried about PvP gear? It has an equal opportunity to cause these issues. The primary issue here with solo dungeons is that a lot of the difficulty with such games come from the interrelationship between you and your team members. Without a team, you could theoretically be removing a lot of the difficulty as well.





    I realize people are biased in favor of the game, but it's foolish not to recognize these possibilities. People get disillusioned by game developers promises, and often disregard their doubts about the game. Yet, time and time again these companies fall far short of their promises. So, you will forgive me if I skip disregarding my critical thinking skills, and believe everything I am told. These possibilities exist, and I think we as a community should be concerned about them.
  2. Steeze

    Steeze New Cupcake

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    The CREDD system does seem a little sketch, but hopefully they have the proper system checks involved to manage it and make it a working model.

    Makes me wonder if gold farmers (via farming, crafting, etc.) will try to compete with the monthly sub pricing, i.e. sell enough gold under $15 that's equivalent to a months worth of CREDD
    Arsonist likes this.
  3. Cogburn

    Cogburn Cupcake-About-Town

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    Here's what I don't understand about problems people have with CREDD.

    The people buying CREDD with real money do not get the gold from Carbine, but from other players. Gold is not being injected into the economy, it's all being made and circulated by players.

    The people buying CREDD with real money do not get any gold unless other players pay the gold for it. It's not a straight up money-to-gold transaction and the price will vary based on supply and demand.

    The people buying CREDD with real money who do get paid gold by other players aren't "paying-to-win" because the people giving them gold have the option to get the same gear and whatnots in game. The people paying gold for CREDD aren't at any disadvantage against the ones paying real money for it. They're usually the ones that have all the high end purchasable gear and crafting services anyway.

    Gold farmers are going to have a hard time taking advantage of the system. Most players would rather deal with the official source (Carbine) and not risk their information by giving it to a third party. Also the people who spend money on CREDD can be confident that they bought something of value and not worry about being cheated or scammed by the gold farmers or people pretending to be gold farmers. Not to mention the people spending gold on CREDD are a part of the community and will be playing the game with the rest of us contributing to raids, dungeons, social events, and pvp instead of having lvl 1 characters spamming gold seller adds in town all day.

    Does CREDD have problems? Yes. CREDD is not perfect, no system is. CREDD is, however, a great idea and most certainly not "P2W" or gold farmer heaven.
    Sonntam, Sylph, Leiloni and 10 others like this.
  4. Roadblock

    Roadblock Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yes the CREDD system redistributes gold it doesn't create it. It's still an issue when gold can be used to give an in-game advantage (whether that's straight up character power or advancement in the more general sense)
    This part is bull <REDACTED>. The target demographic of CREDD are the "F2P" players not the super-rich in in-game gold, those are the edge-case.
    If gold is too easy to make in the game or inconsequential to player progression no one has incentive to buy CREDD from the online store to try sell for gold.
    Gold has to require lots of in-game 'work' to acquire and have desirable items or skills sufficiently expensive to incentivize the RMT.
    Meaning that no average 'play to pay' player will be able to acquire enough gold to both purchase CREDD to extend their gametime and the valuables available for gold that make CREDD a viable commodity on the online store for $.
    This is a 3-tier system where the top-tier (sub + premium) has the most advantages the middle-tier (plain sub) has some advantages and the bottom-tier ('play to pay') is cannon fodder.

    The second part of the sentence is definitely a deterrent for the player but the same is true for all games that don't condone 3rd party RMT. (every game on the planet)
    The first part is not true at all. The CREDD system in-fact encourages boting to an equal degree as it 'discourages' gold farmers.
    Gold farmers target demographic is exactly the CREDD buyers from store.
    As long as they can offer xxxx gold in-game "now" and that's above the current CX rate for CREDD they'll have the upper hand.
    "Do I pay 20$ to - maybe - get 10k gold back from the CX? (if I don't get undercut, if there's enough demand for CREDD in-game, if .. if)" or "Do I get 10k gold now from 3rd party site for 18$?"
    Impulsive buyers will often opt for the 'shady' option.
  5. NabeShogun

    NabeShogun Cupcake

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    First, is solved by BoA gear.

    Second, I don't think from their design philosophies will be an issue, there'll be proper progression, needing heroics -> 20mans -> 40 mans ... Might get epics from solo play but they'll either be mainly useful for solo play (like pvp gear for pvp, don't know how this'll be implemented) or less geared than dungeon and raid drops.

    My biggest concern? NCSoft.
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  6. Cogburn

    Cogburn Cupcake-About-Town

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    Once again, it's not perfect but it's far from P2W.
  7. Roadblock

    Roadblock Cupcake-About-Town

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    I do see some misunderstandings in your post yeah.

    1. No 'play to pay' player has a choice of either buying CREDD to extend their gametime or using their gold for advancement.
    If they don't use their gold for buying CREDD (or pay a subscription which the system is supposed to allow them to skip) they're out of the game.
    This fault in your reasoning could only be explained if you assume that CREDD cost is a side-expense easily covered by a 'hardcore' (in terms of time spent in-game) player leaving gold aside for the same stuff the CREDD seller hopes to get for gold.
    I'm saying that's a pretty big assumption to make.
    As well that the primary target for CREDD in the store are the 'casual rich'... is another humongous assumption.
    If gold gives any kind of power advantage or significant shortcuts (time savings) in the game and the game is as competitive as is marketed to be it's the 'hardcore rich' that's going to be the biggest store CREDD buyers.

    2. For the gold-seller scenario you're definitely misunderstanding what I said.
    The gold seller provides an alternate avenue to gold that bypasses CREDD purchase on the store.
    Player1 buys 1 CREDD on store for 20$ -> puts it on CX for 10k (arbitrary number) -> Player2 buys CREDD on CX -> Player1 now has 10k gold for 20$.
    vs
    Player1 buys 10k gold directly from a gold selling site for 18$. Gold seller pays 15$ sub (or uses a compromised account) and pockets 3$ (18$ if not their account) * however buyers he can supply 10k gold with in that month.

    This system does nothing to deter gold sellers it just sets up shop right next to them with the benefit of less risk to your account.
    Where potential buyers will value the risk remains to be seen.
    FairyTailisBack likes this.
  8. Cogburn

    Cogburn Cupcake-About-Town

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    Seems like we're both doing some assuming. I just don't believe it's going to be as bad as you seem to think.
  9. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    Your example is ludicrous; only an idiot or somebody not in their right mind is going to take a risk for a 10% discount.

    Gold-sellers make the big money by being the only source for purchased gold, which also allows them to set the price. CREDD provides a legitimate source of purchased gold that allows the players to set the price. The gold-seller who is no longer in control of the price, is going to have to greatly undercut CREDD before they are able to sell gold, and even then with a legal source of gold most people are going to go to the legal source. All you have to do is look at the lifting of the Prohibition in the US to see this. Hells, look at cigarettes in the US; the price is ridiculously high, but how many of you US smokers buy your cigarettes through a black-market source.

    CREDD provides a legitimate source of purchased gold, turning gold-sellers in W* into petty-any busines... thieves.
  10. Tribe

    Tribe Well-Known Cupcake

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    Welcome to WSC (WildStar Central). Here is a link to the Personal Introductions Forum. You are not required to make a post there but it is a good way to meet some of our friendliest members. Tell Kat I said hi.
  11. Arsonist

    Arsonist Cupcake

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    credd system smells a whole like ncsoft imo. I am skeptical and will sit back to see how it works out.
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  12. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    People seem to miss that if you're playing to pay, it assumes you're making enough gold to buy what you want AND buy C.R.E.D.D. A lot of people seem to forget that C.R.E.D.D won't be artificially injecting money into the economy, they'll have to be bought willingly by other players for how much that player wants to spend.

    If I wanted a P2W game I'd pick one where there might not be such a large turnaround time on my investment. Aside from that DaGaffa has come out and said one won't be able to buy direct power upgrades for the Elder game content.

    <Mod Face> This is very much a dead horse of a topic, that only lends to players on both camps flaming each other. Keep it civil or it will be locked </Mod Face>
  13. silvershadez

    silvershadez Cupcake

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    I'm more concerned about the hardcore rushing crowd. They will certainly reach level cap in 1-2 weeks and rush content afterwards as if there is no tomorrow. Once they cleared the all the avaiable content they will start to quit the game and the death cycle begins...

    On topic: I highly doubt they will sell gear with their C.R.E.D.D.-system or that you will be able to buy the best gear from ingame currency only.

    If they can achieve somekind of advantage before everyone else trough C.R.E.D.D. this advantage will soon decline... You cannot clear raids or whole dungeons alone just because you bought the best avaiable gear. Even tho they might be geared they would need to wait for their raiding buddies to catch up.
  14. Roadblock

    Roadblock Cupcake-About-Town

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    Care to cite an official reference to that? Because "it" assumes no such thing.
    If it was such a dead horse it wouldn't come up every second topic.
    The fact is business model is intertwined / affects so many game systems it's impossible for it not to come up.
    Add to it that CREDD is controversial since it's treading on alot of taboo topics for mmorpg territory: real money trade, microtransactions, p2advantage :whistling:, F2buyboxandmonththenplay2pay etc.

    Since you locked the megathread(s) where this was being actively discussed, you only have yourselves to blame when it comes up on other related threads.

    If you don't want business model discussed put it on the prohibited topics list and be done with it.
    FairyTailisBack likes this.
  15. Isgu

    Isgu Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'll repeat whats been said in various different threads before, by devs. They want you to be able to use the gear set you have and go do another aspect of the game, but that gear set will not be as strong for that as it is for its original purpose. So as a example, you're a PvP player and you have your nice and shiny T3 gear and you decided to try out this raiding thing with some friends, you don't need to re-gear before you even step into the dungeon but your T3 PvP gear will be more like T1 PvE gear. Now on to your concern, a lot of work in an mmo is related to balancing; balancing classes, encounters, gear, there is no guarantee that the balance is going to turn out like the devs (and I'm guessing most of us) want it, but then that's a concern in every mmo that offers both PvP and PvE, it's trial and error and all we can do is hope for the best.

    As for selling C.R.E.D.D. giving people a head start, I don't think it will be as big of an issue as the OP makes it sound. Others already said partially why, C.R.E.D.D. is not artificially injected money, meaning, person X needs to earn enough money and want the game time for person Y selling game time to make a profit. So I'll assume here a bit, as almost every other mmo, that W* will come with a 30 day play time, so even if people would have the money they wouldn't need the game time straight away. Also there is this awesome (crosses fingers) game in front of me, I'd be worried about lvling my toon and my professions, gearing up etc. so even as a semi-hc player I don't relay see myself being able to get the extra cash to buy a sub from the start, and I'm guessing the majority of the players will find themselves in similar situations.

    Both are legitimate concerns but at this point where we don't have that much information I wouldn't over think it, usually that just leads to a headache :D
  16. Karl Pedder

    Karl Pedder Cupcake-About-Town

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    So me and my buddy both play this game. I'm on a welfare I have a very modest income but abundant time. My buddy works full time he has less time but more income. Any advantage I have over him paid for with the currency I have in abundance of time is ethical and an aspect of fair play but if he were to to use the currency he has in more abundance to even things out he is being unethical?
  17. BennyBones

    BennyBones Cupcake

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    I suspect that buying CREDD will be more of a side-effect for crafters. If this game is anything like WoW, SWTOR etc. the only people who will be able to earn big money are the people who play the auction house. So, buy tons of cheap <REDACTED>, either sell it as is or craft it into more expensive stuff and sell it. I'd wager that around 95% of the player base won't be using CREDDs as they won't be able to afford it. Most money that people have are earned while leveling and running dungeons and not buying stuff on the AH. The moment they decide to use that money, they will be recovering it so slowly it'll take many months or even a year or two before they'll be able to afford something expensive again. I'm working under the premise that CREDDs will be expensive.
  18. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    If it was such a legitimate topic then people would be be citing the working solution that would make Wildstar the stand out game in the industry that solved this issue and prevented people from purchasing gold.

    If this was such a legitimate topic, then people would not repeatedly ask for assurances from the developers and when the devs give them those assurances, turn right around and dismiss them and create another topic crying about the exact same thing.
  19. Roadblock

    Roadblock Cupcake-About-Town

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    I have cited the working solution, it is "remove CREDD" and go with a honest subscription model if you want a P2P game.

    I'm still waiting for those citations with dev assurances, which would make your post an actual contribution and not crying about crying, ie doubly useless.
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  20. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    how would this solution prevent people from buying gold?

    This has been cited in all 50+ of the credd whine posts, not just by me but other people, and the response every single time was "ya, because devs never lie right?"....not going to waste my time giving links just to get this response again, especially when you can search this very forum and get it yourself.
    If you just dismiss a devs response and dismiss the whole game philosophy, then there is no actual point to thread.
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