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My PvP Concerns (From Reddit AMA Tier List)

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Honoracy, Mar 24, 2013.

  1. Honoracy

    Honoracy Cupcake-About-Town

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    [EDIT]
    Bardic told me to go ahead and ask my PVP questions on the forums so everyone could see the answers.

    1) Will there be any measures taken to prevent boring "pillar humping" (sorry about the lingo, just what it was always referred to as :p)? Or does the mobility and play style of Wildstar already fix that issue?

    2) What size arena teams will be available in WS?

    3) What is your feelings about double jump in PVP? Will there be "High Gravity" (No double jump - just regular single jump) in eg. Arena?
    [EDIT]

    Hey there! I posted this over on Reddit first, but I know there is a lot of PVPers here that might not check that site out. So I would love to get some feed back from all of you! :inlove:

    EDIT: Reddit Link

    I'm a PVP enthusiast, hardcore competitive player and sponsored pro gamer. I say these things not to brag, but to make a point that this post is from my heart.

    Here is the topic of concern to me:
    "We will have a tiered reward system for PvP, where: Warplot Rewards > Arena Rewards > Battleground Rewards"

    Why does this statement bother me? Because with a lack of explanation, it's a scary thought. The order of rewards to be more exact. Battlegrounds seem to be in the right place. However, the other two rewards are IMO backwards.

    I will first say that I'm very passionately following Wildstar. I'm a part of the WSC community, listen to podcasts, watch videos and read forums DAILY. I'm not biased on any level and am very open minded. I'm going to release my speculations with the information I currently have.

    Now here is my reasoning:

    Warplots
    Currently warplots have been referred to as the elder game for PVP. Which makes sense when you see this tiered list. Warplots will give the top rewards for PVP.

    Warplots should be second in tier. Why?

    Warplots will most likely be 10-40 man PVP. My concern is that when PVP is anything higher than 10 people, it becomes hectic and a zerg at times. Yes there will always be a core of 10-20 people that shine, but just like in old school 40 man raids there will be slack. The slack is mostly the people that fill a body gap. Yes, there is always a elite raiding guild where everyone is amazing. Even so, my point is still valid.

    The only way I could see this work in a decent fashion being the top tier pvp reward is through PVP guilds. PVP isn't as appealing as PVE for guilds. I doubt there will be more than 1-2 PVP 40 man guilds (active) on any server. Either way, guilds were more for communicating and keeping track of buddies for PVP. I would not like feeling forced to join some zerg PVP guild to get top tier PVP gear. You will play warplots a few times a week and get the best gear while you mostly grind arena and BG for your other pieces. I guess that's where my main issue is. You will have these 40 man raid guilds who have better attendance and group performance doing Warplots on off nights for S&G, while getting top tier PVP gear. Where is the equivalent for PVPers? Can we take our 40 man PVP guild and just get top tier PVE gear by steam rolling some raid? I don't think so.

    It just feels to me PVP in Wildstar is viewed as some secondary option. Where raiding is the top tier option for the game. They should be equals, but in their own respect.

    Arena>Warplots>Battlegrounds

    Arena
    • You play arena with a group of 2, 3 or 5 (assuming).
    • You play weekly when your group is available. Climbing the ELO ladder and unlocking options for better gear.
    Warplots
    • You play with a guild or get a invite into a group starting up a warplot battle (sorta like the bosses in wintergrasp. Get gear doing this optional content which is better than solo gear "battleground", but not as good as ARENA gear.) It's fun and serves a purpose for doing it.
    • Is most likely made Tier 1 to get people to play them. Maybe they don't want it to be overlooked or rot if it serves no major purpose. This is understandable, but totally causes problems that I've mentioned previously. (Imagine if Wintergrasp/Tol Barad was the top tier PVP rewards. Everyone would have done it. It would have been way more popular). Until the release of the PVE bosses inside those open world PVP zones, they were hardly played.
    Battlegrounds

    • Play for fun with buddies.
    • Play solo when bored or needing to practice.
    • Grind extra gear.
    • BG's are like dungeons for PVPers IMO. Same goal and idea.
    Make Arena top tier for PVP. IMO 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5 based ARENA is like the holy trinity for competitive MMO PVP. So much time and practice are put into ARENA. It deserves to be tier 1. Getting top 10 in a battle group for ARENA is like being in a top hardcore raiding guild. Riding around on my Gladiator mount made me feel bad ass and showed my achievement. Riding around on Mimirons head I'm sure felt the same for a top tier raider.

    TLDR; I feel like Warplots being tier 1 allows any joe blow the ability to have top tier PVP gear. From a competitive PVPers POV this feel like <REDACTED>. I feel that arena should be top tier. This to me is more competitive and allows the better PVP players to stand out. Condensed group play > Large zerg group play for PVP. Raiding is a whole different scenario. 40 man raids might be bad ass and work well fighting AI. Making top tier PVP 40 man is just not the same all and all.

    A ton of this is speculation. I'm not even 100% that they will have 2, 3 and 5s in ARENA. I'm read everything released on PVP so far from Carbine and I have to just pretty much assume on a lot of it. Again, this is my SPECULATION and my opinion on the TIER LIST they released for PVP.

    My first huge post for Wildstar. I figured if I love the game enough I should give my honest opinions on the things that concern me. Thanks for taking the time to read this and anyone who gives their insight.
    -Honoracy
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  2. Glacius

    Glacius Cupcake-About-Town

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    I do agree with you in the sense that I am concerned on how they will handle the different types of pvp. I'm not sure we can be too worried just yet because we have no details at all on how it will work so I think it would be best to wait and see. Assuming Carbine is what they seem to portray then there is a chance that if pvp isn't right at the moment that they will listen to player feedback and make it great.
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  3. Wayoverpowered

    Wayoverpowered Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm hoping that open-world PVP will at least give some battleground-type tokens, in addition to XP (which has been mentioned already as being there). There gets to be little point to rolling over some people in the world if you could be spending time in a battleground instead and earning 10x the rewards per hour/whatever interval of time. Obviously, without objective-based open-world pvp being in for launch (as the AMA mentioned) we wouldn't want to have the best rewards obtainable from random skirmishing, but... on the same token, you don't want it to be completely worthless either for trying to play some of.

    I'm hopeful that PVP will prove popular enough that they add some objective-based areas... to this day, Darkness Falls and Labyrinth of the Minotaur are my favorite zones in any MMO, period ;). There's the very obvious concern that PVP will not be given a whole lot of attention post-launch as has happened with so many other titles lately...

    Regarding where each tier should be, if it's currently Warplots > Arena > Battlegrounds/open-world pvp, I don't really see an issue... get a guild that does both pvp and pve if you want to do both seriously. That said it probably is statistically rarer to find. Personally I feel like organizing a team of 20-40 people who are great PVP'ers to take out other top PVP'er teams is much more skillful than going in an arena with 2-5 people handpicked... sort of like how going into a raid with 20-40 people that is difficult, typically is regarded as needing more skill than going for a 5-6 person dungeon.

    However, I've been a part of some guilds that rock at both raiding and pvp, and hope to be in one again for Wildstar or ESO (looking more like Wildstar to me at this point... but I'm still needing to see how things pan out info-wise before each game's launch, the lack of non-instanced PVP is holding me back on wildstar while the lack of housing is holding me back on ESO).
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  4. wormed

    wormed Cupcake

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    Honestly, AION's OWPvP system works great... with some huge tweaks. Hear me out before I'm rail roaded for saying AION's system is great cause it definitely has its huge flaws.

    The good thing about AION's PvP is that it flat out rewards players for participating in killing the enemy faction. Flat out, if you're a solo PvPer, you will make WAY more AP (Abyss points, the currency for AION's system) than if you're grouped. This provided incentive for players to roam as a solo player, or small groups and eliminated a lot of the zerging that can plague OWPvP.

    The mistake NCSoft made with AION is that it essentially forced you to do PvE to gain AP. Why would I want to do PvE to get my PvP gear? It just makes no sense.

    Developers need to let PvP players get their items/gear via what they love... PvPing. PvE players should be able to get their items/gear from doing what they love... PvEing. Requiring either type of player to do both can really hurt the game in the long run.

    And lastly, please, PLEASE, do not create PvP gear that has bonuses to defense/offense against players. Resilience in WoW, PvP defense/damage in TERA, PvP defense/damage in AION, are a few examples of how those bonuses ruined the end game. It creates an awful itemization/item disparity problem for low level players to brand new max level players to veteran max level players. Just allow the best PvP players and the best PvE players to earn extremely similar gear for being great at their respective ways of playing. Since Wildstar has action combat and seemingly wants its combat to be skill based, let it BE skill based, and not just totally item based.

    A brand new level 50 in Wildstar will be at a disadvantage to someone who is THE BEST PVPER ON THE SERVER due to gear, sure, but it shouldn't be so monumentally huge that the new 50 is one or two shot. The idea of grinding BGs, or arenas, and losing over and over and over until you can have a decent set of gear to even compete is the worst endgame MMO problem to date.
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  5. Wayoverpowered

    Wayoverpowered Cupcake-About-Town

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    Excellent point on zergs, wormed... and I agree COMPLETELY on not having a pvp specific stat that affects offense/defense/etc. against players only... that sort of dual setup has been bad in every MMO I've tried that's had it.
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  6. Glacius

    Glacius Cupcake-About-Town

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    Unfortunately I believe that they said there will be pvp-based stats similar to resil in one of their wildstar wednesday posts. I agree that stats like that ruin pvp and I hope that there is some way that we as players can deter a system like that.
  7. Honoracy

    Honoracy Cupcake-About-Town

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    I have had this on my mind for a while since that AMA. Just never had the time to sit down and jot all my thoughts down. I have a lot of faith in Carbine and hope they do make it work well.
  8. Honoracy

    Honoracy Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm assuming Warplots will be instanced. The only world PVP will be ganking and running across random people leveling/questing.

    My main point on Arena>Warplots was that there will be people with top tier PVP gear who just get it not trying or caring to even have it. They will be just "having fun" with their guild getting it. If there was a way PVP players could get top tier PVE gear like that, there would be a problem. Just doesn't seem very cool from the PVPers POV.
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  9. Wayoverpowered

    Wayoverpowered Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well, I assume(d) that you will only get warplot currency from fighting other guilds in warplots, and you'll need to be fighting other GOOD guilds to get the rating required to buy the good stuff with said currency. Thus "just having fun" wouldn't cut it... just like PVE top tier gear can't be done "just having fun" :).
  10. Gravy

    Gravy Cupcake

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    I Completely agree with you here, arenas should always be the top tier of PvP gear. This allows the game to be very competitive, as well as fostering a strong community of players that focus solely on that aspect of the game.
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  11. Honoracy

    Honoracy Cupcake-About-Town

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    I really liked your post. I have no problem with not including resilience. I hope they just keep the gear similar but with a different look and maybe aimed of more pvp stats like crit/HP than other things raiders might want. Good points and I pretty much agree with most of your points. Thanks for the feedback!
  12. Vembumees

    Vembumees Cupcake-About-Town

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    As a competitive player the biggest question reading all that is that if you truly are competitive and good player as you tell, why do you need the best gear to be achievable via arena grind. If every average joe can do warplots, meaning everyone who wants to PvP will have the best PvP gear, wouldn't that actually make arenas more balanced? I mean, everyone has the same gear, thus only things that matter are the specs, player skill, comps. The gear imbalance from that is gone. If everyone has equal gear, that only will make arenas MORE competitive. Since you love(d) WoW arena and I assume, you were gladiator, then why are you concerned about the average joes having same gear in the arenas as the players who grind arenas. What will matter is your rating, not what gear you have. Like holy <REDACTED>. If you are a good player you will <REDACTED> on the average joes, even when taking half of your gear off. I'm not going to bother writing my lifestory here, but when I played WoW arenas in wotlk before I quit the game, I just started with blue-greens and went to 2400 rating when I had barely even half epic gear, rest just blues. And I stomped like 80% of the comps and mirrors who had just the best PvP gear and PvE gear in the game combined. Every ridiculously geared average joe just got stomped with blue items. And it isn't anything new, actually, most of the top PvPers in WoW did pretty much the same with any of their alts. I'm not playing or even look towards the game at this point, but from what I hear, the state is still exactly the same. If you already have played pretty much any big games on a competitive level, you will simply stomp mmorpg arenas without a problem. You know what I see? If I can get the best PvP gear from warplots, then only thing I can see that all the good PvPers will only end up with short onesided matches against the bads. On an equal standing, only skill+comp wins. Saying that gear ruins your competition is absolutely re-tarded. A competitive game is balanced game and what gear causes in PvP, is only unbalance.

    In addition, don't just get hurt, but it looked to me that your main concern is that you wouldn't be able to show off with your gladi gear when running around in the lobby city. Well, I can already give you a solution to that, which is rather easy. If you faceroll the gladi gear with your skill (I assume if game will have arenas at release, it will be easy to accomplish due to the game being fresh and have imbalance, you having such a concern already makes me believe you will probably easily be one of those), then you can get your gladi gear and you know, equip it in town. If your rating doesn't give enough epeen to you, then simply equip that second hand gladi gear and everyone can see that you are a badass. And then you can run around the town with it all day with your badass mount. In arenas you of course equip the actually surperior gear and still keep stompin and buildin up that reputation. If really the gear is the only thing that makes you want to do arenas, then man, don't talk about competition, that's just ridiculous.

    Just my opinion on it. Personally, I simply don't give a <REDACTED>, because gear will probably be easy to obtain for a hardcore player, whereever and however high it is placed. I WOULD like to work more for my gear than just do some PvP raids and just loot the good stuff, but that's actually what they might do! Warplots maybe give better gear, but there are absolutely any other details than that. Warplots could give you absolutely whatever. They might give you god damn PvP gear badges that you have to farm for 6 months to get your full set of gear, while arena gear might be obtainable in 1-2 months. I mean, whatever might happen. There most probably will be some hard grinding for PvP gear, I really doubt they'd want to shorten the content for the gearhugger PvPers. Just don't please talk like giving an equal standing in the arenas for everyone somehow stops good players from standing out. I guess these are all the average joe scrubs playing in the MLG etc tournaments and top ladders of sc2, lol, dota2.
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  13. Nyuklehead

    Nyuklehead Cupcake

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    I think its far too early to go making claims like this. Hopefully, there will be a lot of strategy that goes into building your Warplot and leading 40 people into unknown territory. You'll have to be able to react to defenses and traps on the fly along with an intelligent enemy that is trying to do its best to make sure you don't make it.

    Unless I missed something, we don't even know what the ultimate objective will be. Are there points that need to be captured/destroyed or is it a CTF game? Maybe its a mix of everything that would reward or even necessitate the teams to break up to accomplish different goals. IMO, this has
  14. wormed

    wormed Cupcake

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    Top tier Arena players should earn the same gear as top tier 40-man raid gear. Simple as that. No PvP stats, just keep it equal.
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  15. Honoracy

    Honoracy Cupcake-About-Town

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    Depends on how big Warplots are going to be. If they are 40 man, more PVE guilds will do them than PVP. Guess that's the point I'm trying to make. There won't be enough "teams" running them unless they have it going through cross server.
  16. Honoracy

    Honoracy Cupcake-About-Town

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    The competitive side WILL be Arenas>. I will be streaming them and trying to play them professionally / LAN event them is possible. You can't go to LANS with Warplots and I don't want to be forced to play them to have top tier gear. For Wildstar to be a serious competitive PVP game they need to core their PVP around a 3-5 man team roster. This is why I'm worried they don't really put a lot of emphasis on competitive PVP because they have Warplots top tier.
  17. Wayoverpowered

    Wayoverpowered Cupcake-About-Town

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    I come from a background of top-end guilds, in DAOC and WAR primarily, with some hardcore Rift raiding and TSW as well... I never quite got the argument that 3-5 person teams vs. 3-5 person teams are the ultimate test of PVP skill. I guess theoretically it's more reliant on each individual, but then again, 20-40 person action in warplots could be more like relic raids in DAOC than just a zergball in a normal WOW battleground... there are some things you have to do with more people tactics-wise that won't work with 3-5, and vice versa for PVP. You do have a point that it's much harder to showcase 20, 40 people in a LAN than 3-5 though.

    EDIT: And, just to add... as was mentioned, we don't really know quite enough about how warplots will work to make a real judgement call here, I think. If they are much more casually-oriented in terms of the actual skill and objectives inside of them, then yeah, they become "easier" than just straight combat. If they are complex and require split tactics with lots of raid management, then it can quickly turn into "harder", in my opinion.
  18. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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    remember, each type of PvP has it's own ELO ratings, and each rating tier has increasingly better gear. you're not going to be playing against top rated people right out of the gate when you start pvping. so when you're ranked whatever in an arena you're going to be going up against similarly ranked and geared people, so it's going to be using more skill than gear.

    why should Arena's be better than Warplots?? does that mean that you think 5 man dungeons should be better than 40man raids? it's all over in the accessibility/difficulty discussion thread. at least in PvE, lots of us think/feel that it's harder and more time consuming to coordinate 40 people. would it not stand to reason that it's harder and more time consuming to coordinate 40 people in PvP, esp since you're going up against PCs, that have ever changing strategy, instead of NPCs??

    also, it's Warparties that coordinate the Warplot. you can be in both a Warparty and a Guild at the same time (at least we're assuming so!). you might can pull 10 people from 4 different guilds that want to have the ability to do warplots, but at the same time want to be in their own guild because they like PvEing with the people in that guild.
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  19. Honoracy

    Honoracy Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's a status symbol. You want to sport your gear you earned and people recognize your accomplishments. I'm not worried that the players with the PVP gear will have a huge advantage. I'm sure that raiders wouldn't like seeing a PVPer running around in top tier PVE gear that they got through some fun system. If top tier PVP gear was only earned through ARENA then you would only see the gear on good players (for the most part). Warplots will throw the top tier PVP gear around in a millions directions is my point.

    You seemed kinda angry in your post. Everyone wants to show off their accomplishments and it's common behavior. It's different to be a douche about it though and shove it in someones face. I want to make PVP videos, stream and potentially LAN Wildstar if the game allows for it. I want to see the game be the biggest MMO for esports. It would be awesome.

    Anyways your last paragraph was just annoying to read. I don't know why you're cussing or being so rude? I have never been an angry gamer or PVPER. I also tend to not linger around toxic players so I'm going to just step away from your posts :/
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  20. Honoracy

    Honoracy Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's a ton of people to maintain/rely on. It's also not feasible to go to LAN's with 20-40 people on a team lol. Warplots will be a beefed up version of Wintergrasp / TOL Barad IMO. From the video and sound of it that is. Rated battlegrounds flopped hard in WoW as well.

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