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My PvP Concerns (From Reddit AMA Tier List)

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Honoracy, Mar 24, 2013.

  1. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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  2. OGee

    OGee New Cupcake

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    Well this is encouraging information. But perhaps the biggest take away for me is that it seems they are putting a large emphasis on PVP. Not sure they are putting the same effort into PVP as they are Raiding for instance but they don't have to be exactly equal imo. As long as they are dedicated to pvp and it's not treated as an after thought and they listen to our feedback I will be a happy pvp'er.
  3. Nekofest

    Nekofest Cupcake-About-Town

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    I feel sorry for all the people that can only relate their PvP experiences to MMORPGs.

    Especially if those experiences were further limited to arenas / BGs.
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  4. OGee

    OGee New Cupcake

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    Can you expand on some other PvP experiences you have had? Not trolling just curious to hear where your PvP point of view is coming from. Always a good thing to understand other people's perspective in a discussion.
  5. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

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    Equal footing isn't something I need for my PvP, which I suppose is one of the reasons I love open-world PvP and why I think Warplots will be what keeps me playing Wildstar if anything. I quite like the concept of fighting in a battleground half of which you [or your Warparty] helped design.
  6. OGee

    OGee New Cupcake

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    I totally agree that open world PvP is fair game when it comes to higher lvl people coming across a lower lvl toon and flexing a bit.

    However, when talking about instanced PvP where rating is involved there has to be a lvl playing field IMO or the rating system means nothing and is irrelevant.

    As far as Warplots are concerned it is interesting because I think even when 2 equally rated teams going against each other 1 team can still have a distinct advantage based on Warplot design. But as long as they start with the same or similar amount of resources before design than that is a lvl playing field IMO.

    My big concern still with Warplots is it almost feels like tower defense meets mid-sized PvP encounters and I'm just not sure how I feel about it yet. However, I am very exited to try them as it is something fresh and has great potential to bring a bigger social element which I feel PvP'ers sometimes lack.
  7. Dysp

    Dysp Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm fine with Warplots being the "top-tier" in pvp, as they'll require the most upkeep and teamwork. Having large teams, puts less focus on just a few classes, while allowing for more roles to be filled.

    Arenas, are pretty general (aside from top-tier). Nearly everyone can participate in them and gear up. For the record, I was never really a fan of the arena format, as it was always horrible skewed by specific team compositions. Across most all of the ratings, specific compositions were just quite a bit stronger and prevented you from choosing the class/spec you wanted to use. If you wanted to compete, you had to take one of the few the classes/specs that were competitive. That's not to say that top-level arena players weren't skilled, but they did have to play from a specifically small array of compositions.

    As the team sizes grow in PvP, the focus on specific classes/specs are changed. Some classes will always be the strongest in a small fight, while others will excel at large fights. With Warplots, fights can vary from 1v1, to skirmishes, to player vs structure, and up to full out mass fights. Many different roles can be filled, and the flexibility of combat just seems a lot greater.

    I would be for Arena-only and Battleground-only cosmetic gear though. If you excel at one of those, you should visibly stand out.
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  8. Chomag

    Chomag Cupcake-About-Town

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    I really hope the warplots don't take the path that rated bgs took in wow: healers and ranged classes and 1 melee (preferably deathknight/warrior) as flag carrier, and all other melee classes can gtfo.
  9. Nekofest

    Nekofest Cupcake-About-Town

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    First, let's talk about Warplots.

    Worst case scenario is they are nothing more than zergfests. A fortress on an open field directly across and in close proximity to another fortress on an open field.

    Here's the ideal scenario where warplots will be have more depth and strategic value leading to a higher skill ceiling than arenas will ever hope to offer.

    Fundamentally Warplots have multiple layers.

    Warplot vs Warplot - Fortress Design: The layout of your structures. Things such as how many turrets you've decided to place. Where you've placed them. Whether or not you've chosen to use a raid boss. Which raid boss you have chosen to use. How relevant any of these things are will depend on however warplots are actually implemented. If you're able to utilize traps, siege engines, defensive structures, or the environment. Maybe one squad only uses a single outer wall with lots of turrets. Maybe another team uses multiple layers of walling with no turrets.

    40v40 - Actual Players: If it's a zergfest this point is irrelevant. Otherwise, how you distribute your forces will be an aspect of strategy. Strategy is an element of skill. Perhaps you allocate a certain number of players of a certain composition to defending your warplot while you task the others to the offense. Maybe you don't have any defenders. Maybe you just turtle and wait for the enemy to kill themselves trying to breach your defenses. Perhaps the players themselves aren't your typical arena allstars, but they're damn good at building a fortress and defending it.

    It's difficult to get into something we know so little about. What we can certainly appreciate until then is the potential Warplots have until more about them is revealed.

    The fact is that giving players more objectives than "kill the other players" is more depth than an arena.

    What we would all certainly like to know is what objectives might be tied to Warplots. Basically, will there be a reason for me to defend my Warplot or put any effort into its construction or should we all just duke it out in the open field between our gates?

    I think that covers about everything I think about Warplots. So let's talk about arenas and why they suck.

    Arenas have only one objective: Eliminate the enemy team.

    Players will try to find the best method of killing each other. This has typically been about dancing around and pillar humping trying to get the opposing team to burn their defensive cooldowns while holding onto your own so that you can set up a CC chain and burst someone down.

    This is just my opinion, but it's boring. Boring to play and boring to spectate. Especially when you have hour long arena matches. I can certainly appreciate the level of execution and coordination required to succeed though. I'm not exactly trying to discredit it entirely, but it's still lacking depth.

    So you have to deal with stagnation. People find the optimal combos for killing each other and that's about where the fun stops. FotM team compositions are the only things worth playing.

    ----

    Now I realize everything above has absolutely nothing to do with your question but all of these thoughts are derived from experiences playing other games of various genres. Not all of them necessarily from PvP games either.

    So let's talk about other games.

    Stagnation is essentially the death of every PvP game, ever.

    So why do MMORPG arenas lack depth and suffer the most from stagnation while other games are arguably just as repetitive if not more so?

    Because typically MMORPGs don't give much room for players to outplay each other. They even have systems in place to make the game "easier" for you, therefore lowering the skill ceiling. (Example: SWTOR auto-rotating you to face your target as you channeled a cast. Tab/Lock-on targeting in general.)

    Arena play has pretty much gone down like this. Enter arena. See enemy team comp. Recognize their strengths and weaknesses. Mash buttons until defensive cooldowns are popped. Peel for my teammate if necessary to preserve our own defensive cooldowns. Chain CC and burst for a kill. Or quickly swap targets and burst for a kill before enemy can react.

    "Getting globaled" was a pretty big issue in arenas.

    There isn't much room for making any kind of big plays. For staging huge comebacks.

    This is purely a result of combat design.

    What games allow for more skillful combat? I believe they've taken to calling these things "action combat" games, I guess? And WildStar looks to be one of these games since everything is telegraphic with hitboxes, and this is why WildStar might have a chance at having enjoyable arena PvP.

    I break it down as any game which does not have tab targeting / lock-on targeting.

    There is a ton of hype derived from coming back and defeating an opponent from the brink of death. Watch any fighting game tournament where someone is literally 1-hit away from losing and manages to make a huge comeback. The excitement is palpable. Just watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtuA5we0RZU It's probably impossible to appreciate this video if you don't understand what's going on yourself. He reacted to, and parried, every single attack out of that super. He did not just hold down a block button or throw up some damage absorbing shield. He had to successfully time every single parry.

    Can MMOs have combat this exciting? I certainly believe so and find no reason why they cannot.

    People love games such as Monster Hunter, Dark/Demon Souls, Chivalry, and TERA because they find the combat engaging. I'm not going to go into all the flaws of each respective game for they certainly all have their flaws, but the point is there is nothing skillful about tab/lock-on targeting.

    So why is any of this relevant? Because WildStar still looks like a game where you try to set up a CC chain and burn someone down. Or people are still just going to get blitzed down in 5v5. And allowing people to respawn in arenas just seems like a bandaid to dealing with the infamous arena gameplay. Admittedly I know nothing about the breakout mechanic and most of us have no hands-on experience with the game's combat though.

    And because the only reason people think arenas take skill is because they have zero experience outside of their "field of expertise". Let me correct that. It's not that arena PvP doesn't take skill, it's that it's extremely shallow. People weren't being bitter when they said you could pick up a fotm team comp and faceroll your way to high ratings. It was absolutely true in WoW.

    So, I'll tell some stories about other games.

    Let's start with PlanetSide 2. Large scale operations. Something I relate back to when I think of Warplots. The game was a zergfest. Having more bodies certainly gave you the greatest advantage. The biggest flaw of the game was its lack of metagame, or real incentive to play objectives and little meaning regarding them. There was quite a bit of strategy involved with the gameplay though. Territory control and adjacency when it came to capturing bases. Destroying shield generators so that your tanks could enter a base. Maintaining air superiority so that your bombers could deal with the tanks or wipe out the infantry. Ultimately the game was about controlling spawn points, and oh boy did players get creative about doing this. I remember when people started hacking vehicle terminals and deploying a spawn point in the middle of the tower they were trying to capture. It was GG from there. There was a load of communication involved with organizing and tasking over a hundred people at once. Most of which was almost never "Everyone go to this one place all at once!" You were always tasking people to go to different places to accomplish different things. Even with all of its flaws, PS2 was a game I greatly enjoyed while I played it and respect the appeal of many of its design elements. There were always ways of trying to outplay your opponents. Doing a Max Crash was certainly one of them. Enemies putting up a tough defense and it's impossible to breach into a facility? Have entire squads pull out their mech suits and charge in all together to clear out a room. This was also a way of dealing with air if they had the AA cannons for their suits. The game had way more strategic value than "run around and shoot people".

    Warplots even make me recollect playing Tower Defense maps in the fact that I hope structure layout or placement is relevant. Being able to get creative with your mazes. Finding the optimal locations to place your towers in your maze for maximum coverage. These things all tie into the idea for me of being able to construct your own fortress.

    In general playing fighting games and more action-oriented games like Dark Souls or Chivalry makes me think deeply about PvP. These are usually purely mechanical concepts or fundamentals that I take with me from game to game though. How relevant these things are typically depends on how similar the games are mechanically. Dark Souls played almost exactly like any other fighting game I'd ever played did. I streamed my first playthrough of Dark Souls completely blind and people were impressed by my competence for a first timer. I attribute this to many things you pick up from other games of other genres can easily translate over to other things as well.

    I even played osu! to work on my hand/eye coordination with mouse movements and reaction time.

    Ultimately MMORPG PvP usually sucks is because it's too easy to emulate high level play. The skill ceiling is just too low. It's a dial-a-combo game. Learn a rotation and go faceroll it to high rating. This is how you shatter combo. Press 1-2-3-4 and they die. Necrotic Strike (lol). Phantasm Mesmers. Elementalists (if you asked me the hardest thing about playing one was making judgment calls on who to engage and when to engage them rather than the actual execution of doing the burst combos). I, of course, only reference these things to the time of their relevance.

    You cannot emulate twitch reactions. Reaction time tends to be something that can often separate top tier players in skill to mediocre ones. Predicting what your opponents are going to do means nothing if you have no means of punishing them. Much of what comes out of skillful play is a result of mindgames and baiting people into doing what you want them to do. MMORPGs just don't typically have combat designed to complement this.

    Going back to that Daigo parry video. It's a very simple concept. Parry every time the attack comes out. Sounds easy. Being able to react to, and execute that, on the other hand is not easy at all and separates a top tier player from an average one.

    Simple concepts. Difficult levels of execution meaning high skill ceiling.

    And again this is what brings me back to conclude on why arenas are typically low-skilled suckfests. Because it's just running around a pillar waiting to dial up your CC chain burst combo.

    Perhaps this is all over-simplification of various systems. Perhaps this is all irrelevant ranting.

    Long hair. Don't care.
  10. OGee

    OGee New Cupcake

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    Your post was too long to repost everything but I will touch on some things you mentioned.

    Warplots - Your assumptions of Warplots seem to be spot on. If done correctly it could be very deep gameplay with an array of strategy. Or it could turn into a huge zergfest in a worst case scenario. However, after seeing and hearing all that the devs have said about the game I have hope that Warplots will be strategic and fun.

    MMO PvP - PvP in MMORPG's does tend to get static especially if the only incentive is a gear treadmill. And yes most of the time players memorize a rotation that is deemed most effective so how fun can that be overtime. But this, as you touched on above, happens in most player against player games. In FPS the best players are those with the best aim and cornering skills(simplified formula i know). Arenas become similar because maps are mastered and cooldowns and rotations perfected.

    However, why do the same players always seem to top the charts in either FPS or Arenas if they are so basic and easy. The best players have the best anticipation and communication with teammates and I would suggest more skill.

    So to make my point going all the way back to the topic posted by the OP. The truesest from of PvP to me is 1v1. However, there is no controlled/instanced 1v1 in the game so it falls to small encounter arenas to bring out the best players. Player vs Player in a controlled environment with all things equal is the truest form of PvP and that is why I think Arena is ultimately king over Warplots in determining the best players. So this is really my only disagreement is that I think Arenas do take a large amount of skill which is why not everyone can get top rating in Arenas.

    All that said I enjoyed your post and even though it may not seem like it, I am extremely excited to participate in and experience a new gametype such as Warplots.
  11. Nekofest

    Nekofest Cupcake-About-Town

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    FPS games fall back on simple concepts with a high skill ceiling.

    It sounds simple and easy to "just shoot people" and "don't get shot" but why are so many people not very good at this?

    Because it's really not all that easy. Again, reaction time and twitch reactions are not something that can be learned or easily trained. Especially incorporating that into accuracy and precision. You might get the jump on someone, but they might spin around and headshot you. They'll end up surviving with a fraction of life while you've just been eliminated.

    They may have even been just a hair off from the headshot. Mistakes can be made. You cannot really emulate these actions.

    Unfortunately mistakes are much more difficult to make in MMORPGs or rather the system is more forgiving to mistakes.

    To put it simply

    I don't think Arenas have ever been the greatest indication of who the best players are.

    At the same time, I do not think Warplots will be the greatest indication either.

    Both Arenas and Warplots will be indications of what the best strategies are to employ in their specific fields.

    The best players are the ones that are the quickest to discover these strategies or discover counter-strategies to the current trends.

    The problem remains that these best players will be overshadowed by the fact that the skill ceiling is low and most people will be able to emulate them to achieve similar success and results.
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  12. OGee

    OGee New Cupcake

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    I really agree with everything you are saying but at the end of the day someone is going to be on the number one spot and they likely have the most skill or the most well oiled machine whether it be in Warplots or Arenas.

    Even if the skill ceiling is low some could argue that this is a good thing. Not in the spirit of competition of course, but if more players can pick up the game and do fairly well this is a good thing for all of us involved. As the game will hopefully be accessible and gain popularity which in turn provides devs resources to improve and expand. But at the end of the day even if any random joe can play in an Arena or Warplot match based on ease of entry the cream will still eventually rise to the top.
  13. Nekofest

    Nekofest Cupcake-About-Town

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    It eventually gets to the point that becoming a "top player" is done by using scumbag tactics like stream sniping and using alternate characters running a specific team comp to specifically counter your competition so that your "mains" can get the rank 1 title.

    This is the nature of team comp based arena systems though and is along the lines of stagnation that WoW suffered from.

    So being number one loses it's meaning to me if that's the way the system works.

    This all relates back to the game's systems simply not offering enough depth to really distinguish yourself from everyone else in regards to skill and gameplay and in all honesty seems to be the nature of the beast in MMO PvP.

    But you are definitely not mistaken in that the cream will rise to the top and skilled players will always outperform less skilled players.

    There are always people that try to emulate those better than them and fail at it in any game.
  14. Ego13

    Ego13 Cupcake-About-Town

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    You make some good points but keep in mind also, usually you weren't grinding just for the gear. All of us that excel in games like to think that we're easily on par with everyone the instant we get to their level this, unfortunately, isn't always true ESPECIALLY in an active combat system. A lot of that time is learning how your class reacts in large-scale pvp, in each group dynamic, and also with the new abilities or talent trees you've attained or changed into at max level. I agree with you, for the most part, once you're on-par with them skill-wise it shouldn't be grind/grind/grind/grind for gear non-stop.
  15. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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    remember, if you're playing rated battlegrounds you're going up against people with similar rating and they'll have access to the same gear as you. a fresh 50 will not be going up against 50s that have been playing for months and have the best gear, so they won't be at a disadvantage.
  16. Ego13

    Ego13 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Agreed...assuming it's their first character.
  17. Dysp

    Dysp Cupcake-About-Town

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    Block-able/dodge-able Telegraph combos could promote a similar type of gameplay-tension. We'll have to wait and see how they play out. Supers would be awesome for mmo combat. With the Telegraph system, they could just throw out some crazy, alternating telegraph patterns with the attack. If combat has that high, or near, fighter skill ceiling cap, then I'll be playing Arenas like crazy.
  18. PlayerOne

    PlayerOne Cupcake-About-Town

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    About the smartest thing I have read on these forums.

    I do think it is important for us all to not be overly negative about MMO PvP though (and I am not saying the quoted post was being) because, when all is said and done about it not being the ultimate test of skill, it can be ridiculously fun.

    I think that is one thing WoW skipped over with their rated PvP systems. They were far too fast to heavilly reward the top rated 5 or so percent in an effort to create someone for everyone else to look up to and forgot that by doing that they were tilting the playing field and ultimately making the act of PvPing less fun for most people.
  19. Solomon Hans

    Solomon Hans Cupcake

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    I kind of see it like that, but I think the key thing people are missing is that whole "Tower Defense" thing. This is where so many people are missing it. I truly think those who wish to PvP only will join a PvP guild. And you will build your own defenses to beat/break/follow the meta.

    I played Arenas. I did get barely above that majestic 2k, but how many people got there was following "OP" classes and FOTM depending on class changes the week before. And if you are wanting to talk individual skill and accountability, go talk to people who plays fighters. That's something I've been knee deep in, including arcade scene and money matches.

    Saying this, however, I'm on your side.

    Arena holds a very different kind of skill cap than these war plots. And in some ways, yes it is considerably harder. If you are on a 5v5 team, and you are the first to die, how many people can carry your team when you die? 4. What about war plots? 39. This is where I really believe the rewards for war plots shouldn't be BETTER, but DIFFERENT.

    99% of the best personal gear should come from arena. Because you are fighting for yourself. So you should be rewarded for your personal efforts. When you win war plots, WAY more work is put in trying to make the PERFECT base, but its the idea of the whole base thing that this mode is about. The rewards from War plots should be towards warplots. Doing this would encourage arena play for personal skill practice, and war plots is like the mighty battle at the end that movie that was so epic it gave you goosebumps.


    And anyone that thinks one man cannot change the fight, they would be quite naive. Sometimes just a name can make people jittery.
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