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No Racials, please.

Discussion in 'WildStar Races' started by CaRaDaGaiTa, Jul 14, 2013.

  1. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    To your first question, the point of the racial is to add flavor to your race, and create immersion. If your race "naturally learns" something better than others, or is "naturally bad" at something, it will mean players (in general) will likely tend towards the things that are naturally easier. At the top end players will tend towards whatever gives the best edge to their character for their main, and their alt be something they enjoy the immersion of.

    So... this gets into "What is fun?" I think the answer to that is adding flavor to the class/role/race you're playing. Here's a list of active abilities which could be in racials I think would be considered "fun":
    -Critical chance/critical potency buff (A large % for a short duration, something like 30-40% increase chance and 50-100% potency increase for 8 seconds)
    -Refreshes the Sprint bar to full (1.5-2 min cd)
    -Invisible and immobile ( 5-10 sec duration and 30+ sec cd, mind you this is less useful with telegraphs)
    -Refreshes both dash charges (3 min cd)
    -Teleports you 5 m in the direction you're facing (1 min cd)
    -An attack that would kill you instead has a 75-90% chance that it will miss, only activates once every 5 minutes.
    -Ensnares enemies within 5-7 m for 1.5 seconds (2 min cd) [Note the small area of effect and short duration]
    -Your player leaps backwards 10-15 m (Uses 2 dash charges to activate)

    Basically things that are activatable are important to be "fun" otherwise it's just normal. Nothing should give a certain buff only a chance at something happening. Movement is a big thing that's fun with racials, escaping movement imparing effects is kinda boring, and with the "breakout mechanics" I think it's going to be unnecessary. In WoW the most fun racial was the Goblin racials, the rocket jump to be precise. For racials to be fun I think they need to be a small chance of helping, but maybe be able to allow you to do that truly amazing thing every once in a while.

    Let's take the dodge refresh for instance. If your opponent expects you to dodge 2 times, then they lay out a large hit, only to find you dodge again because you refreshed, and are now behind them to start wailing on them. Or for the leaping backwards (disengage) one, you can use it defensively, offensively, or as utility. For instance you are running at your target, and jump, spin, then "leap backwards" to get ahead of them. Or, you fall off a cliff, so you double jump to get back in position, then leap backwards back onto the cliff. Or you could simply use it as super dodge or gap maker. It does disable your dodge temporarily though, so it has to be used with that in mind.
  2. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    I understand what you mean, but the problem with that distinguishable racials is that they can be mandatory in order to play competitive PvP or PvE. If you would homogenize them down to oblivion, there really would not be a reason for racials. If you give all racials to everyone it works pretty much like homogenization as you can expect everyone in top level to play with the exactly same things you are playing with.

    What I mean with "Is there nothing you can do in the game that is more fun, than give everyone a FotM button?" was that I'd rather see one more interesting and fun ability given to each class. This way you could balance the ability class based and not everyone would have the same ability as not everyone plays the same class.
  3. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    That's not at all the point... The point is if you're in the top end, and you make one profession the undisputed best, those top end players will go towards it. It's not a "choice," and it's not "fun." It's simply a mathematical decision which proves to be the best output. The other thing is professions are fine, because any player can decide to switch their profession at end game at any time to get the microscopic edge on their opponents. A race change on the other hand is not time spent playing the game (yes grinding out a new profession is playing the game, it's not particularly fun, but it's good for the economy and good for the game), it costs money. Yes a player could reroll and that could be argued as still playing the game, but it's a different character at that point, which means you have to play a character that you aren't attached to in any way.

    So, in actuality, they aren't at all the same thing. Not to mention professions are pretty much useless parts of the game, except for that the provide something for players to sink money into (as generally the raw materials cost more than the finished product). Racials break the game balance in a bad way, in that they're permanent, if they were balanced so that it was almost impossible to tell which was better or even within a 5% difference there would probably be no issue. This is hard to do, because you have to make them all interesting (not just a 5% resistance to arcane attacks) but still balanced. It might be better for WoW to simply not allow racials in rated PVP and raids, though this would be an odd decision.
  4. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    So, we go back to how Carbine plans to implement racials, in that they'll be something that's chosen at max level, and you get discounted or marked up cost based on your race for a given ability. (This has been stated or something along these lines, they haven't exactly stated how the currency works or how the buying works, in that you can trade in abilities for other abilities or whatever.)

    If it's something where you spend 1 hour of game time to get 1 racial ability you're "good" at (something like an Aurin dodging), 4 hours of game time to get a racial ability you're "neutral" with, and 12 hours of game time to get a racial you're "bad" at. Also, make this trial something non-trivial, where you actively have to spend time on it and it's something at least moderately difficult to finish. On top of this you have 1 racial ability slot in your LAS.

    First you have to earn the racial any way you cut it. This means you actually care about your racial once you finally get it as a normal or below average player. Not only did you have to make it all the way to max level, but also you had to put some more time and effort towards getting your 1 ability. Many players will decide the 1 ability they like the most and shoot for that, eventually getting more racial abilities to swap out in the future, but not actively work on them. The top players will probably go after all of the abilities in case one emerges as better than the others, so it doesn't matter for them, but for the vast majority you'll see players simply go with the abilities that are least expensive. Especially if they are relatively balanced.

    So, you get the flavor that "most" Aurins are really good at dodging. Which is good for immersion, but then the top end has to CHOOSE which ability they like to use, and again, if they're relatively balanced, it will be chosen based on what their build does, either to balance out their build (add some survivability to high burst dps) or make their build an extreme counter to someone (increase the dps to the high burst dps for a 2-shot on their healer). I think the LAS is a big player in diversity for how WS sets up PVP.
  5. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    To be fair, how I look at your post is that it all basically depends on what does carbine balance the game around. Is it reasonable to balance it for beginners, mediocre or advanced players?

    I have not debated that the racials do not bring immersion to the game, nor I have debated against it that they can be alot of fun to beginners and mediocre players. I have debated the matter from top player point of view, and told how I feel about racials as one. As for top players time, effort or skill used to accuire the racials doesn't matter, you have to expect every top player will do all they can to get the last percentage out of their classes. This is why I debate against racials;
    I want to play aurin because I think they are cool, look awesome and I wanna be cute little thing that kicks the ass of huge things against the "odds" (in RP way). I do not want to be forced to roll any other race just because their racials is better,nor do I want to grind the game in order to get the best racial for my character, racial everyone has only because it is best, not because it is fun.

    This ultimatelly boils down to the fact; I as a HC player do not want racials as they bring nothing in to the game for me.
    The casual players do want them in to the game, as it does bring immersion and possibly make the game more fun for them.

    It's basically opinions and preferences. Who does Carbine balance the game around, is their decision.
  6. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Oh, yah, racials definitely shouldn't be able to turn the tides on the top end of gaming. Top end players will do whatever it takes to get the best possible thing they can at any moment. I think IF "racials" are implemented into the game, it should be in a way that doesn't do anything to top end players. (Either they're not usable in raids/rated PVP, or they're all able to be gotten). I was simply giving a way that it could work. Truly balancing racials is next to impossible, especially if they're attempting to balance out the classes as well as they say.

    I was mainly agreeing with you. Just pointing out how the system would work so that you have pseudo racials in the game that balance themselves out.
  7. Shahdee

    Shahdee New Cupcake

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    There are better classes than others in PvP and PvE.
    There are better professions than others in PvP and PvE.
    There are better racials than others in PvP and PvE.

    Some people are going to min/max
    Some people are going to have fun experimenting
    Some people don't give a f... because they dont care about min/maxing and just want to play the game and have fun their way

    You can't please everybody. I for one ENJOY being able to stealth as a Night Elf warrior. I do not care about doing 1% more DPS...the boss/player is going to die regardless.
  8. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    Or just remove the profession perks such as blacksmithing sockets, JC gems, engineering tinkers. I have nothing against professions, tho. Everyone can roll any profession in their character with quite little effort, it doesn't change the looks of your character. It changes the roleplay around your character alittle tho, but not too much.

    I wouldn't mind at all if professions had no perks, but maybe the perks are there to make top level players interested in professions and get more profession goods in to the markets. In my opinion this just shows how badly professions in WoW are designed; you have to add unbalanced design aspect to them just to get people interested in them.
  9. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Unless you're in the top end of the crowd... then you die and your opponent does not. Also, WoW isn't nearly balanced enough PVP wise anyway, it's a game that's focused on PVE balance, and it's done that fairly well.

    You're also ignoring that players can swap their spec to help balance out performance disparities and professions as well. Also, does it hurt you that a Troll could stealth as well?
  10. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Players only do professions in WoW for the perks though... Unless they're ECON pvpers.
  11. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    Indeed, this is why I said "but maybe the perks are there to make top level players interested in professions and get more profession goods in to the markets"

    At the moment there is no fun to be had in professions other than Perks and possibly making little money. If you want to make money with professions tho you need to have every profession on multiple characters. Then you can completelly dominate markets, given you have the wits and starting budget.
  12. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I think it Wildstar they're making crafting more legitimate and without combat enhancing perks (other than making gear of course). It's supposed to be specialized and create items that are top pieces for various content. Though the resources probably come from that content as well...
  13. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    Yeah I am sure they will do it better than WoW. WoW is little too old to do 180° in their core mechanics, Carbine has a fresh start for Wildstar.
  14. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Agreed.
  15. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    I do find personally crafting should come with perks, when i played a game without one i noticed it.

    Does that mean it has to be mandatory raid/combat perks. Not really but i would like something beyond the ability to craft and repair, cause if you're not a consumable crafter most of your trade is lost at max level.
  16. Grim Fandango

    Grim Fandango Well-Known Cupcake

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    Yes. Yes they do.

    I'm really, really tired of hearing the loud, elitist few show up everywhere, decreeing that if anyone doesn't play like them, they're either stupid and/or irrelevant and shouldn't have their preferences or playstyles considered. Be it racials (which really are a minor thing even in games like WoW), raid drops, or anything else. Even more scary, some of the high-ups in Carbine seem to have that mentality at the moment, too.

    Hopefully they'll come to their senses eventually and create a game that's full of fun, challenging, and interesting content but that doesn't cater solely to the handful of players who give the MMO community the horrible name its earned over the years.
  17. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    The fact you have bad experiences of HC raiders, doesn't mean every HC raider is like the ones you have met. I am starting to get tired of your constant negative attitude in the forums. You rarely bring anything to the discussions you attend in, except just crying how badly you have been mistreaten in the past. Well boo hoo, get over it. Sure I have been mistreaten few times in my past in WoW but what I did was become better, kick their ass and show them how it's done instead of go cry on every possible forum how hard my life is.

    Raiders and hardcore raiders account to considerable amount of players in MMO games. Also like Carbine guys have said, if game doesn't have interesting and hard endgame content and please the hardcore players, the hardcore players will leave and the people with less progression than them will notice that; Hey there is no reason to play this game as it seems to be sh1t at the max level, so why bother become better? After a while those people leave the game too.

    I really get the feeling from your posts that this game is not for you. Actually I have the feeling multiplayer games are not for you. You seem to generally dislike humans and would most likely be better off isolating your self from human kind, as the company of a fellow homo sapiens doesn't seem to be your thing.
  18. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    How about the ability to actually create gear, and that gear be useful? That's something that hasn't been done in a while. I don't think there's a problem if everyone in the game isn't crafting, in fact I think this is probably better. It means that some players can truly just pay others to get something done that they didn't want to/have the time to do.
    Xlugon Pyro likes this.
  19. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Just because there's some content you actually have to work towards, doesn't mean there's not fun and challenging content for all. It may end up that a lot of players have to work hard to get to max level. Is this a problem? As long as they're having fun, nope. Why do they need to be handed all the rewards is the better question? Do we really want/need those players in the game's community that refuse to help themselves?
  20. CaRaDaGaiTa

    CaRaDaGaiTa Cupcake-About-Town

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    Exactly. We already have class spells, milestones, path, professions... No need to racials to feel unique.

    Anyone can roll every profession.If you dont like or think your profession is useless, you can roll another one.

    But if you leveled a Mechari Stalker to max level and realize Draken stalker are 10% better, you have to level another one. And have to level professions, reputations, farm the gold again... Aaaah so bad...

    Racials are unnecessary. Like someone said before using Gw2 as an example, an Asura Warrior being equal to a Charr Warrior... and just because you made a Charr Warrior you want to be stronger than everybody since you're so mad, crazy and badass????? THIS IS SILLY. Selfish.

    Imagine if in Dota 2 or LoL the big champions would smash harder the little ones. Teemo would never has a chance. Same for Meepo or Techies. Stupid argument.

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