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No Racials, please.

Discussion in 'WildStar Races' started by CaRaDaGaiTa, Jul 14, 2013.

  1. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    There's a few problems with that, i'll try to keep it short.

    By creating gear that is "useful", we first have to determine what is "useful".
    Generally that means it's sort of comparable to what you get from the first raid tier, assuming each raid content exist out of two tiers.
    However that can only be a few pieces as it cannot diminish the "carrot" of other content and thus is generally also linked with having to obtain parts of the craft in raids.

    (anything that hurts or allows you to bypass rewards of another part of the game is bad game design in a themepark)

    So to make the "gear up tier" content relevant, we require items from that content to do the craft.
    And to keep the top tier content relevant, the crafted gear simply does not offer that type of item budgets on their pieces.

    The truth is from a design point of view, unless we turn armor, weapons into consumable items, there's no real way to counter it, without doing more harm than good to make such crafts relevant.
  2. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    You're ignoring that they could simply make one or two pieces per tier a crafted item as the BiS. This gear could be crafted from items which is farmed in the raid itself (have nodes in the raid) and with the CBC system, it could mean that a piece or two of base gear is gotten from crafting, and that the circuits are gotten from the raid itself.

    On top of this with the CBC crafting, you will need a surplus of circuits to pad out the gear that you get in raids. Some of this will come from other pieces that are chipped because they are not useful, but I imagine a vast amount of them will come from crafted gear, as chipping a piece of gear destroys that piece.

    Having a piece or two craftable still means that the entire raid is relevant, and that crafting is also useful. It doesn't mean you don't still have to run the raid, it just gives players incentive to craft and to always be churning the economy, even at the top end. So, crafted items can be useful for both filling gaps in chips for items, as well as provide some of the actual base BiS pieces.

    This means that crafters are both needed, wanted, and don't need "extra-curricular" abilities or perks. Just like every other part of the game, crafter's perks should be for crafting if they exist at all, in that you can make better gear. If you force other players to craft to make them the best that's similar to forcing PVE players to PVP or vice versa. If the crafting system is engaging on its own and useful, players who enjoy it will pick it up, and those that don't won't have to.
  3. Neurotic Cucpake

    Neurotic Cucpake Cupcake-About-Town

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    Curious. Ignoring the fact that this site is horribly outdated, I went and looked at the 3v3 Cataclysm ladder. First group listed had a dwarf in it. So did the second group. Fourth one has a draenei. Fifth and sixth one has a dwarf. The list goes on.

    Nevermind that your point is utterly obliterated by the fact that there's Night Elves and Undead in your own list. If Humans had the defacto most awesomely awesome racial that ever existed, no one would be playing anything else. Wasn't that your point?

    Good argument...
  4. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    As for your first paragraph i'm sort of pointing to that direction, i do not think they'll be "BiS" for the whole content however for the reasons given, i believe that's also what they commented on. But yes they could do that if it remains limited to one or two pieces, but that all depends who drops what ofcourse in the raid tier.

    With circuits we are more talking about consumables, i also believe the CBC system was not to be mistaken for the craft systems. But if they indeed come from destroying crafted items this would be good as it would increase the time it takes for crafted gear to reach it's saturation point in the market.

    In terms of perks however i am more speaking of "character" ones, not so much in terms of the reward being the supplier of craftables.
  5. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    So, yah that site is outdated, but if you look through the current ladder on WoW armory, almost any horde team in the top end has undead on any class they can play, and any alliance has human. Class balance is foremost, but when you have a class with the ability to be human or undead, it means they will generally pick that. The main issue with racials is that you don't know which will end up being the best until it's too late.

    Not to mention if you have patch changes, players may have remorse for picking a race. I often will pick a race based on the class first, the racials second, and the looks last. If I pick a race because it has a really cool racial, then it gets nerfed due to being OP, it feels crappy.
  6. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I know the CBC system is just gear modification, but it does take gear to get chips. Are you talking aesthetics or other things that can't be used in combat? Because that's fine for perks, but I think adding perks to crafting means players who don't enjoy crafting are forced to do it to be at the top of their game. This then makes resources the most valuable thing, as opposed to the actual gear. It should be the other way around where crafted gear is valuable and the resources are less valuable.

    Crafting should be optional and engaging, it shouldn't feel like it's necessary for other parts of the game. The economy should also be helped by top end players, and everyone in between. In other words game mechanic and stat perks to incentivize crafting is a bad crafting design.
  7. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    Engineer comes to mind from WoW as unique rewards. Doesn't have to be just in combat, i think that part is already covered mostly by paths and milestones and we don't need two similar rewards systems like that.

    A portable bank, mailbox, unique mounts, advantages in harvesting and so forth.
  8. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Yeah things like this would be fine, but players often went with Engineer because of the activatable gear things. Like the synapse springs and the shield thing.
  9. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    I checked Arena Tournament Realm WotLK 3.3.5a ladder and what I saw from first 10 teams (I can't really arse to check every team for this debate) was:

    Humans: 21
    Draenei: 11
    Night Elf: 3

    I briefly checked next ten teams too and seemed to be two orcs, one drawf but mostly human, draenei, night elf.

    10-20 teams really is not enough data to create any kind of a concensus, but you can get a little idea how race balance is in WotLK 3.3.5 where everyone can take any race they wish without leveling or paying for it.

    What is my point? The point is most bursty DPS classes roll human, most healers roll night elf, most of the classes that rely on controll and pressure roll undead. Many roll draenei for the heal and extra hit they give for the whole team, and some do roll them for the awesome draenei female boobs and the fact every alliance shaman was limited to play only draenei. If both of your team mates want to play Humans, and you wanna play a shaman you really have no choise. Some druids roll Tauren for Stomp=>cyclone. The point is people take race that matches their class the best, they don't take the race that has the most appealing visuals for their preference or the best role or anything that is a matter of personal taste. People have to take the races that are best for their class due to stupid racials, or a because they absolutelly can not be different race with their class due to restricitons.

    Ps. Hi Mysticjbyrd/Solarthermal/Jackashflash/Johnhandcock/Neurotic Cucpake.. With this speed, I am sure you will reach 100 accounts in WSC in no time :)

    Pps. I welcome you to join the evergrowing ignore list of your multiple accounts.
  10. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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    http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php

    18% of all players play Human. Is this because of their racial ability or because people choose that which is most similar to themselves? Or maybe it's because they can be Paladins, the second most populous class after Hunter (which they can also be)

    14% of players choose Blood Elves. Is it because of their awesome racial ability of a 6 second silence PBAoE..? Or because they're pretty? Maybe it's because they, too, can also be Paladins and Hunters.

    11% of players choose Night Elves. The rest of the races comprise the remaining 56% of the population none of which have more than 10% of the population.

    Racials play some part in some portion of the playerbase's choices. But not the majority, I would say. Especially since, if you bring the level range to 90 exclusively, you lose 1% of the human population which shifts over to Tauren and 1% of the Pandaren Population (who have arguably the most OP racial ever for raiding in the form of Gourmand) spreads itself fairly evenly across the other races.

    In short: Your argument, while valid, only affects a small portion of the playerbase. Most players are still more concerned with how their character looks or feels in-canon.

    -Rachel-
  11. UNDERZZZZZ

    UNDERZZZZZ Cupcake-About-Town

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    Racials do affect player choice in WoW to an extent. Maybe the number is small, and the majority do pick looks. But I was one that went for performance over appearance and I don't think racials actually add anything that can't be achieved through other means. As such I think they should be avoided and looks are the the predominant and only factor affecting race choice
  12. Sapien

    Sapien Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think the more differense between races and classes the better and funnier,
    isnt it the whole point with races and classes?
    Im all for racials and pathials. :up:
    And if one as a Hardcore player thinks its "gamebreaking", does one really care what race they roll? Isnt it all about progression anyway?
  13. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    All that being said, does it matter?

    Hardcore players will first optimize class options first which restricts their races based on what their group composition is anyway. Especially with Arena teams. On the other hand with warplots being the top end of PVP and raiding be 20 man and 40 man, compositions are much more flexible.

    If the top end is restricted by which class/race they have to play anyway, does it matter that they also have certain races they have to play?
    Sapien likes this.
  14. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    Your argument is from different point of view than mine. I argue that for a hardcore raider or a PvP players racials bring nothing to the game that can not be achieved with class and path abilities. Why I used Arena Tournament server data is because people who play there tend to be very serious PvP players of the top 1-0.5% of the playerbase. On Arena Tournament every character starts from maximum level so there is no punishment for rerolling the race you deem best for PvP. You do not have to pay 20-45€ for a race change / faction transfer either.

    You used overall data that takes every kind of a player in accordance.

    I do not argue that racials would not bring any additional fun or immersion in to the game. I am sure for some RP player it is cool to have his drawf have a Tolkienish racials.
    UNDERZZZZZ likes this.
  15. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    If there was no racials, no differences in hitboxes of the races people could select the race they like the most. I personally would be very happy if there was no racials, as I could roll my cute lil aurin without missing anything just because other race had better racial.
    UNDERZZZZZ and Xlugon Pyro like this.
  16. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    Even if racials amount to some min-maxing via race choice, I'm okay with it as long as it's not ridiculously OP. I will play what I aesthetically like first and foremost. I will never be in the top 0.01% of players pushing world firsts or topping arena ranks, and whatever racials there are, whatever I choose to play as will be good enough to play competitively and claim server firsts or be one of the top PvPers on my server. There are so many variables to performance anyways and certain racials would vary in impactfulness depending on the opponents in PvP or the boss mechanics during an encounter.

    I do think having racials, especially a good number of them, gives the game a lot of flavor. Otherwise, all you'd be is the same as everyone else, only your character has a different appearance and animations. Racials create a real difference between the races besides aesthetics and I for one support the uniqueness it adds to the racial lineup of MMOs. Again, that doesn't mean racials should be over the top or OP compared to others. Every Man for Himself should've been an obvious bad idea well before it was implemented but that just proves that no matter how experienced you are in a field, you still can't replace or fix stupidity.
    Sapien likes this.
  17. Painguin

    Painguin Cupcake

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    I agree, I would always end up playing an undead on wow for almost all of my classes except hunter. I would be fine with racials like the ones in SWTOR, but not the wow ones.
  18. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    But doesn't that flatten the races a bit? I suppose it's a balance between race depth and freedom of choice... You lose a lot of lore when you make different races simply skins. There's also something to be said about the world where players reinforce the lore through decisions. In other words, the norm would be that night elves are healers, that humans are bursty, so you start to move your observations of class to reinforce the culture.

    I do get the feeling of "I really want to play that race, but I know this race is better." But that's something I usually forget after playing for a bit, as well as when I play an alt, I usually will play a race I wanted and another class I was interested in to make replaying more enjoyable. So, I think the addition of depth outweighs that for me personally...
    Xlugon Pyro likes this.
  19. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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    So... The problem is that a subset of a subset doesn't like how racial abilities work. 'Kay. Just so we're absolutely sure of the scale we're talking about, here.

    -Rachel-
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  20. Grim Fandango

    Grim Fandango Well-Known Cupcake

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    Nah, that tiny fraction of a fraction of a minority actually think they're in the vast majority. You know, just like they're secretly in the top 0.1% of players, know the rest of the 0.1% of players, and speak for the est of the 0.1% of players (who are actually closer to 90% of the playerbase, unless admitting that doesn't make them special anymore).

    It's quite baffling, really.
    Neurotic Cucpake and Shahdee like this.

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