Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by Tom Collins, May 25, 2013.
I do remember seeing a video saying there will be limited amount of skill slots as "We don't want players to use 50 different skills, we want them to choose their abilities wisely" How many this means...... well- I have no idea. I'm hoping ATLEAST 10, with possible 2 extra from paths and such.
Quite honestly, I'd like to keep some form of a limit that can be use-able at a time. It creates a need to prepare and adjust instead of just "SPAM ALL THE BUTTONS!" It creates a need to actually think about what's ahead, what you'll need, and coordinate with your teammates on who does what. Say a pack of mobs is not CC'able, so you take off your CC's and include an extra damage/heal/survive ability on your bar. The boss up ahead requires a lot of CC on his minions or something, so you remove a couple abilities for extra CC's.
It creates an extra layer of perception that will help you evolve as a player. It also keeps that "Wow, I'm exploring an unknown land" kind of feel as well. Having access to everything at all times takes away that bit of flair because you won't have to stop and think, you'll just go 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,sh+1, sh+2, sh+3, sh+4 OH LOOK SHIFT +4 ABILITY WORKS BEST /spam/spam/spam.
I'd like to think that the micro-management of skills will keep people on their feet and slow down a little bit. Think a little harder on what they're doing instead of using everything under the sun at once.
Edit: This also proves worthy to note. Raids will change weekly supposedly as well, so it won't be the same telegraphed situation every week, so you won't always know what's best going into it. This will also create that extra bit to think about when customizing bars on a higher level.
On the subject of changing content I like and don't like it... I like it because replay-ability but, I don't like it because if I'm in the process of grinding and I beat something once and then I cant beat it again it'll be alittle annoying. On the subject of limited changing action bars if this is the case I hope they allow easy action bar flipping at least so I dont have to manually drag buttons all over the place time after time as that'll get annoying quite fast.
A limited action bar? I'm hoping there are at least 12 ability slots available at launch.
i never considered myself "pro" and i've had upwards of 45 keybinds using modifiers a lot, and that is without macroing anything. I generally never use macros except on a druid where I could have the bars change based on form.
7 is simply ... scary to me. gw2 abilities felt so bland.
that being said ive never played a game with limited action bars, but enough abilities to fill them 4 times. that to me would seem to lead to a lot of pvp situations where you lose simply because of your skill selection ... not appealing.
ill have to wait and see. i can see limited action bars working, but 7 just seems ludicrously low.
exactly this, what am I going to do with 7 skills PvP wise? nothing. at that point 99% of winning is less lag and faster timing though im making the assumption there will be more than 7 slots, hopefully.
im hoping like 30 though i know thats not going to happen..
It wouldn't necessarily have to be like GW2. That game's abilities were weapon-bound, so they had to come in sets and be complimentary. The Secret World and GW1 also have limited action bars, but in a way that allowed players more choice in terms of what they put on their bars, and I found combat in both (particularly GW1) to be quite good while allowing a broader and more flexible selection of builds.
In GW1, at least, there were some builds that were the kiss of death when it came to PvP, but I think that happens to some extent in every game. There were a good number that were viable in various situations.
Was that for both PvP and PvE? How many of those would you consider 'core' how many of those were ancillary (profs, consumables etc) how many 'were off spec' (like a just incase tank skill)
I'm genuinely curious; I know my bars are full too but really your core 'rotation' in PvE isn't exactly huge generally it's almost always the extraneous stuff I have because I can.
they were fairly core abilities. I for should could have done without some of them most of the time. I did not have crafting abilities nor long buffs hotkeyed. I didnt have rez or potions hotkeyed either. As a healer though I had all of my offense and all of my heals available at any give time. when tanking I had all of my shouts hotkeyed. I also had all of my stances hot keyed even though I rarely ever entered zerker stance. granted i rarely used disarm, but there were bosses where I did use it, in 10 mans at least. I suppose in 40 mans that role will fall to someone else. I guess the point is I was ready for any situation. If I wanted to whirlwind adds because I just shockwaved other adds, I could. 7 just doesn't seem very versatile.
I guess the mystery for me is how do you swap abilities? In the design of the game, when do you swap abilities?
I never used hotbar paging either for example. I guess I did in gw2 .. with weapon swapping, but .. in wow I never did.
Im assuming I will be able to page to a different hotbar out of combat?
I also don't understand why things that aren't broken are getting changed. At the heart of things I can understand some people struggling with 45 keybinds .. but SEVEN? ... sounds like an xbox game :|
EDIT: There were a few other ancillary things now that i think about it. mount macro (ok so I did use a couple of other macros) pet macro ... but really ... id say there were at least 30 core warrior or priest abilities hotkeyed at any given time ... dont even get me started on paladin >.<
Granted haling is a bit more complicated then DPS or tanking I never had all my damage abilities keyed for my healer. I also had my UI set u to switch my bars when I changed spec.
Not that I disagree with you mind I like having things keyed incase of emergencies (dropping into blood and tanking for 45s while we res the tank to save a wipe) and 7 is too few (although in the 'latest' build isn't it 10?).
I'm just saying it might be confronting to think about going from 30 to 10 at first but then you just have to think about what you really really needed on your bars (PvP and healing is different) I know I had the absolute bare bones core bound to 1-8 for raiding on primary toons (DK, Shammy, Priest)
The difference is you'll have to make meaningful choices of your build before each fight, as opposed to always being able to deal with a situation because it's just a button on your bar, you'll have to get creative how you deal with situations when you don't have a button with what you have available.
Your perfect theoretical build calls for 7 abilities, and without any one of them your DPS goes down by 30%. You then have to slot an extra escape ability for a fight, due to inability to stay alive. You now have to rework and relearn an entire build due to having one minor change, or suffer a drastic performance loss.
If you think losing in PVP due to strategy makes for bad PVP... I don't know what to tell you, possibly, don't PVP. Limiting action sets not only makes for engaging strategy for PVP, but also creates PVP meta-games for competitive play. It then becomes the popular build, the counter to the popular build, and the build which will be the counter to the counter, for when the counter becomes the popular build. This means PVP is constantly changing. Watch some competitive Starcraft or League of Legends or Dota 2, it'll give you an idea of how this works. Strategies change over time depending on player competency with the given strategy, and what they think the opponent will play or go for.
It makes for very compelling gameplay, instead of "Man... I hope that patch release ends up buffing my team to be imbalanced this week..." Limiting your choices means you'll have to make meaningful decisions before engaging in PVP or if you're worried about OWPVP, then you'll have to slot a couple of your precious slots for engaging in OWPVP as opposed to straight PVE, making the world more interesting as well.
It's 7 class abilities plus an innate ability which is an active ability during combat. Really it's 8 abilities but only 7 can be swapped out. Then you have 2 more 1 for path and 1 for another thing they haven't released yet. So it's 10 buttons with active dodging and action oriented combat. Being that you'll need a modifier key for dodging and sprinting, I'd say that's a pretty good amount of things to keep track of that don't include activatable items, quest items, and other things that have nothing to do with your class.
Limiting slots forces players to make meaningful decisions often to adapt to situations and forces them to be creative, and play around with builds. Meaning true cookie cutter builds will not work in most cases, and instead guides and theory crafting will have to make suggestions for given situations, with higher uncertainty. This frees players to try things out on their own instead of "this is how I was told to play."
Yes, for raiding you will have to rely on multiple players to do different roles, and likely squads will form within the raid, or at least temporary subgroups depending on the fight.
This hasn't really been given yet. All we know for sure is it will be done outside of combat and not allowable in arenas. They are looking into putting loadouts which will let you easily swap between builds, as a quality of life thing, not something which is expected to be done during a fight/encounter/pvp.
It's more than 7, it's 10 buttons plus jumping, moving, dodging, and activatable items. Only 7 abilities will come from your class at a given time (this was after the first beta round, I think this is anywhere between 6-8, they haven't finalized this number). They're tuning it to be challenging, especially in raiding.
Benefits of the limited action set is that you can have specific roles for people to play, and a greater variety within playstyles. If you need someone to dps and cc, you have someone specialize that way, if you need someone for AoE burst, you have someone specialize that. It means there's not one viable way to play a class optimally plus a bunch of sub-par ways to play the same class. Instead you will get niche optimal class builds depending on what you're trying to do.
I would guess the number will finalize closer to 10-12 abilities total: the number typically found on gamepads and gaming mice.
I actually see some really interesting builds coming from LAS in group situations more than solo. In TSW, certain abilities take advantage of certain States (conditions) on a target. If you can't apply that State, there's no real point in slotting something that takes advantage of it. Example: the Shotgun ability Powder Burn does extra damage to enemies that are Hindered. Thus, you always want to slot a root/snare to capitalize on that extra damage.
In a group, that goes right out the window. Only 1 or 2 people out of 20/40 need to be able to root/snare and anyone with a shotgun can slot Powder Burn to full effect. This is the kind of ability interaction I want to see: entire raids building complementary loadouts that synergize. This, more than anything else, will make raid strategy more than "shoot boss, stay out of Void zones."
couldn't agree less ... but it's really not worth trying to convince you of my opinions. i will just have to wait and see how this plays out for me.
Ok, I suppose we have to agree to disagree then. Either way, did you ever play the original GW? That system did it right, and Wildstar's LAS looks very similar to that. I think you had 8 abilities, and choosing which abilities you had on your bar made the game play drastically different, and you could swap out stats to benefit certain skills above others, but your entire set of skills was 50+. You would end up tweaking your build slightly, or revamping the whole thing, and could sometimes come out with some extremely unique builds that took advantage of 2 classes in an interesting way.
It also made PVP really interesting, because you'd have to make your build able to deal with anything. I haven't played GW2, but from what I understand the system changed, and doesn't have the same feel.
I'd agree if you only have to use 7 abilities in combat, that's too few (even with dodging and such), but I don't think that will be the case.
After just stepping away from Neverwinter for many reasons, the limited action set certainly contributed. After playing WoW on my priest, the limited action sets are frustrating. NW as an example - 3 heals on bar, 1 daily (epic skill type thingie), left/right mouse for offensive spells which contributed to healing. I was bored. I had no goto 'oh sh*t' button, it was up to the folks to use pots and not depend on the healer, therefore negated the role to some degree.
While I can appreciate the customization and forced 'mini-game' of skill selection, I'd prefer to use what I have at my disposal - and not only have 25% available to me at any given time. Also, assuming that specific boss mechanics will require certain actions, the coordination between multiple tanks/dps/healers will be a PITA in a 40man raid - before the event even starts. To ensure that tank #1 has X and #2 tank has X, healers 1-3 have cleanse and 4-6 are AoE heals, etc. Unnecessary level of tediousness and bar swapping. Which brings me to my final point - in the event we have this limited skill set, make the transition between skill sets easy and intuitive (preset bars by my design, predefined) - I don't want to drag icons around holding up everyone.
That being said, I didn't play GW1 or the other example given above where it was done correctly.
I'd agree NW was a terrible combat design. First, you had to choose whether to dodge or attack, feels very clunky. Second, there are way too few abilities to be able to use at a given time, with 1 or 2 being the dailies that you use, once in a blue moon. I'm not trying to claim that LAS system is inherently better, but allows for customization of playstyle. I haven't played GW2 so I can't speak on that, but the original GW did it right.
I think you misuse 'mini-game' here, the word you're looking for is meta-game. It is the basis behind how you play the game, being that you choose your build and playstyle and then can adapt it to fit different situations. It's a strategy of how you will play which has to be tweaked, tested, and practiced. If done properly the LAS will provide theory-crafters with many variables to work with, which gives depth to research as well as breadth. A mini-game is more of a... short game which the outcome is generally indifferent to the rest of the game.
Lastly, it's been mentioned that they are currently working with "loadouts" for your abilities, which will be for swapping between builds quickly. If this isn't available, I'm sure an add-on will be quickly developed for it, as it just is saving which abilities are in place.
Also, I think it's unnecessary to police players to make sure tank #1 has X and tank #2 has X, instead tell the players they can do what they want, the raid leaders and officers will decide if they're not doing their job correctly. This means players are free to play the way they want to play, and are still held accountable. If you have a healer that has 0 cleanses but all heals, and can pick up some extra slack from other healers that have 3 cleanses but half as many heals, and it works for your group, why should a developer say "no no no, that's not right, both healers need to be cleansing..." On the other hand, if the one healer has no cleanses and needs to have one to do the fight, they'll pick up a cleanse (either from figuring it out, or being told to), either that or be kicked from the group.
Hope that in PVP we see 10-12 abbilities
Limited action set has a ton of potential if done right. The keys to it are a sheer number of available abilities (none of the 20 ability garbage in games like GW2 and Diablo 3) the concept of risk vs reward, class versatility through this large pool (allowing you to create more eventful fights, you can't just completely screw over the melee if the melee have no way to deal some damage at medium to long range) and most importantly creating meaningful button presses.
From the latest interviews and posts they said they were aiming for 40-60 abilities (I believe that was a very recent interview with stephen frost, however I could be wrong) for the current limited action set of 6 class abilities. These 40-60 would cover both roles that a class can do. Ontop of that you've got one path ability slot, 2 item ability slots (I imagine these are for active "special" chip item abilities, or maybe something like trinkets), you've also got a basic "free" attack that triggers a GCD, if you've played SWTOR they do that as well, and I also believe classes have some innate ability like a stance, or stealth for a stalker, but I could be wrong on that.
That's already 10+ abilities without factoring in the important of movement, both of the enemy and yourself on the combat systems. If even two 3rds of those are meaningful button presses, where you're actually thinking about what you're doing, and why then they've already made combat that takes significantly more thought than a game with 30+ keybinds, and yet you're doing a specific, unfaltering rotation of 6 skills.
It could be done amazingly, it could be done horribly wrong. Time will tell.