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"OMFG you noob!" Trolling and solutions.

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Morthaine, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. Sasquatauch

    Sasquatauch New Cupcake

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    Wow, this sounds like a great system. Clearly it would have to be tailored a bit for this game, but it sounds like there's not much to change at first glance. There are some folks here that seem to be especially good at spotting potential pitfalls/exploits, so do you all see anything here that would warrant further scrutiny?
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  2. Jojin

    Jojin Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well first, if the player is a jerk to the public to an extent where lots of people report him, then a tribunal finds him guilty and then a CS service representative has found his offenses worth a ban, then guild or not, that person should be banned.

    Secondly, Tribunal is anonymous. You don't see the other members voting on the case. So unless the person wants to publicly announce his or her experience and vote, it doesn't come out. That said, if a person wants to brag or talk about it in a public medium, then they also are opening themselves up to repercussions.

    You do bring up the point of what's wrong with the community. A player feels it's fine to be a total prick in public and bother other players as they already have a subset (guild) of friends and could care less about anyone else.
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  3. Zeus

    Zeus Cupcake

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    Then it just turns into a witch hunt when a player is punished. People always talk. Its just like the game telephone. A person tells a guildie in confidence about the way he voted on a particular matter protaining to a specific person. That guildie then tells another guildie and so on...

    MMO communities are far to intertwined for a system like this to work. if a CS person is reviewing it anyways it further makes the Tribunal worthless. It would be better to just have a CS do everything based on thumbs down received (more the higher the priority).
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  4. Sasquatauch

    Sasquatauch New Cupcake

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    That's fair. What if nobody knows anyone else's name though? You don't necessarily need to know who it is you're voting for, just what the offense(s) was(were). I think Tribunals would eventually be like Vegas - what happens in Tribunal, stays in Tribunal. If the worst-case scenario took place where they somehow did find out, got that person sent to Tribunal, and somehow found that person guilty, there's still the checksum of the CS representative that has to make sure something fishy didn't happen. So you're still good.

    Is that something that could work?
  5. Zeus

    Zeus Cupcake

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    Not having named isn't possible. You would need chat logs and people involved to make a judgement. You also cannot redact names from the logs because then it becomes confusing to follow a argument when people are referenced in logs. The only way to ensure names being left out is if you have some solid censor software. That means more money is being spent to make the software and manage it. It would be cheaper to have the CS person who is already there handle everything. Without make a diluted pool of bitter player witch hunts.
  6. Zybak

    Zybak Cupcake-About-Town

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    Elitism and drama will always be in game communities. Online video games would be extremely boring if you didn't have a wide range of personalities. Players being competitive, trash talking, and getting emotionally attached to the game makes for a better experience.

    Many of my favorite moments in MMO's have had player rivalries involved in them. Whether it was taking over IF for 2 days and having to have a GM port everyone out to stop it. The <Serenity Now> Funeral Raid in World of Warcraft (that was kind of messed up but still hilarious)

    Even things just as simple as killing someone 1v1 in a battleground that was talking trash about you.

    I think it's good when the game is more than a game.
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  7. Jojin

    Jojin Cupcake-About-Town

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    The purpose of the Tribunal is to weed out the frivolous complaints. This way actual issues are brought up to staff members to handle. Otherwise, if the complaints are too numerous the cost of handling them due to the staff support isn't feasible so they just often get ignored.

    Generic priority just based on votes isn't a good system, again because popularity can heavily influence such. I mean just today, had someone in my guild ask everyone to PM another player and ask him where he got a piece of gear because it was a very low level item he was using in a high level battle ground. Review should be randomized and anonymous so it isn't influenced by peer pressure.

    The system can work just fine. Especially considering we have individual servers. I don't see it is such a concern that one person might be betrayed be close friends and confidants on a vote they made against a person, then that information might find it's way to the person in question and that person might be part of an extremely vindictive guild which attempts to disrupt the originators play, so much so the whole system should be thrown out. Even if it is the case of being problematic, because of the individual servers, tribunal jurors can simply be pulled from all servers aside from the one which the defendant resides.
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  8. Zeus

    Zeus Cupcake

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    I wish I would have been the person to bring this up. This is a very good point. To tie this point into the conversation of the Tribunal system is that clashing egos promotes competitiveness and a drive to succeed over ones adversaries. The only reason is the Tribunal system exists is because the community almost tore itself and the game up. Wildstar by no means need a rash hard system that is the Tribunal public justice system.

    Again great post Zybak. I am happy you brought it up!
  9. Sasquatauch

    Sasquatauch New Cupcake

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    Hmm, I think we're getting out the scope of a Tribunal at this point? It was my understanding that only one in the tribunal was the person that received the complaints. Then the people on the Tribunal would only see the messages that were logged as complaints, not entire conversations, and would make a judgement based upon those complaints. In that case, no names would be necessary since it's not a he-said/she-said environment.

    Am I interpreting the Tribunal system correctly?
  10. Zeus

    Zeus Cupcake

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    That is pretty much how it work's in LoL. But it just doesn't work. You can't be certain complaints are real unless you have a logged conversation in which we run into the issue I pointed out before about log censoring.
  11. Zeus

    Zeus Cupcake

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    I think we are taking this topic to far. All of the conversation so far has to be written as if something needs to be implemented. I think the better topic would be what can we do so that come release date and the birth of communities to stop such a rash and hostile system from being needed. How can we help build our community so that we promote kind helpful people instead of basing everything off punishing the wicked. All we have spoken about is how to punish the bad that is not the solution the the topic at hand.
  12. Sasquatauch

    Sasquatauch New Cupcake

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    What Zybak said makes total sense. You have to have different personalities to spur different aspects of the game. However, it's what he didn't add to his post that is most telling. The difference being when those elements start to cross the line from competitiveness to disrespect and outright jackassery. Wouldn't you agree?
  13. Zapp Brannigan

    Zapp Brannigan Cupcake-About-Town

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    Sorry, where are you getting 'witch hunts' from? And who is being hunted (I may have just missed this, apologies if I did)?

    Also, to clear up two misconceptions about the LoL tribunal that I noticed:

    1) Players are no longer rewarded for participation (or at least were not a couple of months ago).

    2) The system automatically hands out warnings/short suspensions if enough people hit punish. Permabans are handled by CS, I'm not sure what happens with 2-week bans.

    That said, it's hard to get perma-banned. Warnings almost always go out for a first offence, barring some extreme cases. Someone brought up an example of someone who's a douchebag in public but nice to his guild; unless he was truly abhorrent, he'd get a warning to not be a dick in public, as well as be able to view the tribunal case to see what he was punished for (one part of the Tribunal is an attempt to reform players so that they don't continue poor behaviour in the future). It takes considerable effort and disregard for warnings to be punished in any meaningful way.

    A couple of other points:

    *With the Tribunal, what is considered 'acceptable behaviour' is largely decided by the community. Yes, this has the potential for a group of people with, shall we say... 'tight' moral standards who hit punish if someone utters the word 'pants' (replace with swearing that you find acceptable). That said, I swore a lot in LoL, yet never heard a peep from the Tribunal because I did not swear at/about people. I don't recall any cases where people were punished just because they swore when it was not intended to be hurtful.

    *There are a large amount of people who look at each case. I believe it may be 12 votes/case, though I could be mistaken.

    *Voters are anonymous, I cannot recall if the person being judged is anonymous (I know that in cases where they have been reported for an inappropriate name they are not anonymous). I'm not sure how the anonymity of a judged person could be kept in an MMO space and understand concerns in regards to this. In the LoL tribunal, you can tell players apart by the name of their champion, with the additional identification of the accused being purple. Perhaps that would be enough in an MMO space, simply removing the names and using some level of colour distinction (even if it's only the accused distinguished?).

    *You vote on the case based on the actions of the person accused above all else. They may have been provoked, though provocation isn't always an excuse. If the provoker is worse than the person who's case you're judging, they'll more than likely have a case of their own against them.

    I think that one problem may be a lack of people using the tribunal; LoL fields tens of millions of players, which Wildstar more than likely won't be able to match (no matter how great it is). It's possible that some kind of reward system would be required in order to get enough people judging on a tribunal.

    That's all I've got for now.
  14. Zeus

    Zeus Cupcake

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    I use the term witch hunt because then you get people looking to white knight a situation and rally the community against somebody. Reports are to much up to the person particular set of morale values.

    I just believe a system like this can be gamed to much with a bandwagon effect.
  15. Sasquatauch

    Sasquatauch New Cupcake

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    I think we might have an idea gap here. Check out my original suggestion. What I'm thinking about now is a combination of that and the LoL system suggested by Zapp.

    Is this a framework that would address the negative-only feedback issue as well?
  16. Zeus

    Zeus Cupcake

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    I do agree the thing up for debate is who draws the line. To many people have to many different views.
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  17. Zeus

    Zeus Cupcake

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    if it was done correctly and in moderation it would be a great system if the players endorsed it. But now we start getting into the entire does Carbine really need to spend money and development time on this system.

    I still think we need to focus more on promoting a sound friendly environment instead of one that may become referred to as "don't be unliked or you may be voted off the island."
    I believe my post above is the best way to explain it.


    I would like to add a thank you to all participating in this convo/debate. I do enjoy playing Devils Advocate far to much and I believe this is a topic that the community needs to flesh out.
  18. Sasquatauch

    Sasquatauch New Cupcake

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    Interestingly, that is always up for debate and it will vary from server to server, which is where the CS comes in. Ultimately it comes down to the ToS of the game and the CS typically makes their ruling based upon the ToS. If a game has poorly constructed community rules in the ToS, then the community (and game) will suffer no matter what implementation is made.
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  19. Zeus

    Zeus Cupcake

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    If it is up to the CS's digression why have the Tribunals at all? Don't even let it be up for player judgement.
  20. Sasquatauch

    Sasquatauch New Cupcake

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    Thankfully that's something they'll have to decide. They say the devs are listening and I truly believe they are, so I say it's our job to provide as much community brainstorming to them as we can so they can take it and implement it as they see fit.

    I 100% agree, I would much rather be proactive than reactive. But I'm a full supporter of plan for the worst and hope for the best. :)

    Thanks for doing it! You've kept a level head and brought up things that needed to be addressed. That's what the clay molding process is all about.

    If you're still unsatisfied with aspects, let's flesh it out!

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