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Path Bonuses

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by Emissary, May 19, 2013.

  1. Emissary

    Emissary New Cupcake

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    I apologise if this has already been discussed, but I cannot see information on this...

    I saw mention, and I cannot remember where, of bonuses you receive when levelling up your path. These appeared to affect the character in ways that would be useful for their combat effectiveness.

    Does anyone know if your path will affect your stats/abilities in a way that will be significant come elder game? Will the path be something that will be worth choosing based on what it offers your character if you are the kind of player who wants to min/max their combat effectiveness?
  2. Virtual On

    Virtual On Cupcake

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    This is something I really want to know, because iirc I saw somewhere that Explorer may give movement speed bonus'?
  3. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Yes and no. They will give you active abilities which could be used in Elder Game. But they don't want it to be things that will be good for certain classes so that the best way to play a class is a certain path. I think your path will play a role in how you play in Elder Game, but not passive stat bonuses. Think of it like WoW's current talent trees, not like WoW's current crafting system.

    Check this thread:
    http://www.wildstar-central.com/ind...th-unlocks-by-level-pax-east-2013-build.1940/
  4. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Link: http://wildstar-central.com/index.p...th-unlocks-by-level-pax-east-2013-build.1940/

    That's what they reward you, no other additional awards/bonus stats are known (atleast not to me).
    But i also think it's highly unlickely otherwise you will end up with ''this path is the best for raiding healer'' stuff......and seeing how Carbine wants more then 1 viable builds i think they are gonna avoid that.

    Indeed, i think the Paths are more for your own quest experience, and they give some visual stuff + some skills.

    If they also give them stats + skills it would be easy to get imbalanced for some classes.

    It should never get to a point where it's best to get X path in order to min/max stats!
    But that's my point of view.
  5. UNDERZZZZZ

    UNDERZZZZZ Cupcake-About-Town

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    Carbine must understand that even by not giving definite and absolute advantages (such as stats or power). There will always be an optimal. In the example given, if an explorer gets a movement speed increase and the rest don't get anything interesting. Then most players will take that.

    I hope it's like racials where the cost of skills are effected. Like Aurins have cheaper costs than the Granok for ability X because they're more thematically suited to that particular ability. This way, the elder game isn't affected by poor choice/preference choices in character creation. But thematically, there is still some differentiation. Much like with races, I'd hate to choose a path other than my preference simply because it has better elder game bonuses.
  6. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I think the idea is all Paths are viable and within a close margin (less than 5% performance) to each other, which can easily change depending on the boss fight/team comp. Such as a temporary speed boost, vs an additional self heal or something like that... Either way it takes up an LAS slot.
  7. Dualist

    Dualist Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm looking forward to the path specific mounts. At this point it sees that they'll all be ground mounts, but I hope they all look equally BA.

    But to stay on topic, I doubt that path's will provide any significant advantages over each other in regards to combat skill. Over time, I'm sure the min maxers may pick a path which provides certain bonuses which fit their play style, but I don't think one path will ever really emerge as the raiding or PvP path.
  8. Emissary

    Emissary New Cupcake

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    It's the "Explorer's Speed" and "Eldan Endurance", as well as "Battle Rage" and "Clear the Lines" that worry me. If they are abilities and part of the limited selection we all face, then it might be reasonable, assuming they are worse than any class abilities, but situational.

    I have chosen races in MMOs based on a 1% increase in DPS. I hate to say it, but for the "hardcore raider" this will be more than enough to force a path decision.
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  9. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    So, the hardcore raider will run with whatever's best because they actually are to the point where they will see that extra 1% increase. For the majority of players they see the top raider play something and lemming it, regardless if it actually helps them or not. They perceive it as helpful, therefore in their mind it's helpful, but it doesn't do anything for them. If the top 1% finds that certain paths are the best, that's fine because they'll have 4 alts to cover their basis here. Average Joe won't have 4 alts geared to the teeth just to get a different path advantage, so they'll stick to what's fun for them, because the difference in DPS for a top end raider would be 1% due to timings being perfect, but average Joe is .001% increase DPS.

    Also, it's fine for slight imbalances in the game for those top end players, because they enjoy finding every little thing they can for min/max, down to the .001% increase, regardless of how much the like the class. Players with less skill will simply stick to what's fun, and if they don't have any preference towards a class, they'll choose the one that is stated to have the greatest performance. If paths abilities are different, hardcore raiders will abuse the balances to their advantage, due to having every possible combination of class/path that they would play in a raid.

    So, even if there is a slight imbalance, it's not something that's not already in the classes, and it's also a non-issue if the variance of performance is low enough.
  10. Sawpaw

    Sawpaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    Those abilites also worry me slightly, they sound like pretty decent skills to be using, so how carbine can claim path choice wont effect you at end game I'm really not sure, because from where I am sitting, the paths certainly effect your character strength at endgame.

    For example if I want to play a full dps stalker it seems I need to take the soldier path for battle rage, and until I hear anything different I will be choosing my path based on which is best for endgame, instead of the path I would have actually preferred to be, as really I would have preferred to play explorer, but as it stands I wont be able to due to needing to min/max for dps.
  11. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    They said they will all be viable for all classes in end game, not that they won't affect end game. If you're a dps stalker maybe you'd rather have the endurance from the explorer, or something from the settler. You have no idea what these abilities do. The soldier's battle rage may simply give you an interrupt armor for 6 seconds. The Explorer's speed boost could only effect your sprint speed by 15%, so instead of running at 150%, you run at 172.5%. Also, with the end game skills you get, they may be able to give you something similar, so the Explorer gets a 15% boost to your sprint speed but everyone else can get a 10% boost.
  12. Sawpaw

    Sawpaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm sure they will all be viable for all classes, but viable is not optimal. I remember someone from carbine saying that path choice wont be affected by class/spec choice, when clearly I think it is absolutely affected by it.

    If I was gambling here I would bet that explorers endurance is a buff to the amount of time you can sprint, or possibly an HP buff, and sure the speed boost may well be just a buff to sprint, it certainly looks like the explorers will be the fastest movers. Personally I think battle rage will be a buff to attack power, or something similar, it certainly sounds dps related to me, and as I think its safe to say explorers will be the fastest movers, it would be logical to think soldiers COULD be the best dps path.

    Bottom line is min/maxers will choose a path thats best for their spec.
  13. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Description of "Berserker's Rage" from WoW:
    "You become Enraged, generating 10 Rage and increasing physical damage done by 10% for 6 sec.

    Also removes and grants immunity to Fear, Sap and Incapacitate effects for the duration of Berserker Rage."

    Sure there's a damage buff for 10% for 6 seconds, but on a 30 second cd, that means only 1/5 of it actually goes through. So we're talking a 2% dps increase (give or take) at most. This could easily be made up by a speed increase on a movement heavy boss fight.

    Also, note that the ability gives you a necessary resource, Rage, and then it also breaks CC's. So, more often than not warriors will use this ability for a CC break or a Rage generation ability, rather than for it's damage buff. The speed boost can help you keep up with a boss, or it can be used to dodge attacks, it may even give you a slight haste buff for a short time, so you have different ways to use it. Basically they're close enough to balanced, and on a spreadsheet, the Rage wins it, but in reality they're closer to balance, because one boss fight the speed helps you in your overall dps but another the damage buff helps.

    Basically, just like there's certain classes that shine in some fights, there will also be certain paths that shine. I'm not stating that they'll all be equivalent, but they'll be close enough to be a toss up depending on the boss fight for raiding, and close enough that players won't care if they aren't raiding. This "single optimization" can be fixed with smart development, and a variance of content mechanics. Sure there will be people who see that build X is theoretically the best, which then skews the statistics because the most skilled players are playing the theoretical best builds, which then artificially inflates the numbers and effects the players who don't properly do their research and just look at the graph and say "Clearly that build is the best. I'm going to do that." But that will happen anyway. You're not wrong to worry about this stuff, but it is something that we'll have to trust that Carbine is seriously working on, and dedicated to balancing.

    You also have to keep in mind each build is limited to LAS system, which means you can marry a class build with a path to get an overall advantage based on your path. Because being unique in a raid means you'll get geared up the fastest, meaning your performance goes up faster, even without the extra 2% damage buff. I believe the fact that it's almost impossible to get BiS gear will help balance this out as well, being that those weird pieces will simply help the guy with the weird build more. It all depends on how Carbine handles it in the end, it's not intrinsically going to fix itself or be broken though. I agree that it could completely fail and builds are all the same and everything, but they have the makings to allow for a pretty decent variation.
  14. Sawpaw

    Sawpaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yeah, I do think there will be variation for sure, between LAS, racials, paths and the way we customize our gear. The thing is some of those variables can be changed but some cannot, the racial and path you choose will be locked to your character, and so choosing one that you find out at end game was maybe not the best choice could be a problem. We have seen this before in wow with racials, and now paths are pretty much adding another reason to reroll if you prefer a different paths abilitys/buffs. I don't know about you, but when I reach level 50 I do not want to be rerolling because I then find out path X would have been better for my spec.

    Sure they may have the paths very well balanced in what you get, and make the choice difficult to make, but thats the thing, no longer are we choosing a path because thats the path we like to play, we are choosing it because of the abilitys we get from that path, I find that kind of ironic as they have said "play the way you WANT to play" when really thats not the case, a min maxer will play the way they HAVE to play.
  15. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    That's not true actually. Any player can get any "racial ability" as they are implemented in the elder game, where every player has access to the same pool of abilities. Certain races will get a "discount" for various racial abilities though, to make races a little different, and players lean towards certain skills over others. Such as an Aurin may be excellent at dodging, so dodge "racials" will cost less units than it would for a Granok. The only thing you're locked to is Class and Path really. Also, Carbine has to come up with 12 total abilities that are balanced across 4 paths, and actually that's not true either. They simply have to make the 4 best abilities for MOST situations balanced and make sure that each path has one of those abilities. If there are fringe abilities that you have to use instead for a certain fight for certain paths, I don't think there should be much concern.

    This is very different from racial differences, as you only can choose ONE of your abilities at a time from your path, as opposed to getting the entire toolkit for that path, while racial bonuses in WoW stack with each other to make an overall better/worse possible combination. Also, they can always all be used, and are usually extremely powerful. Also, your LAS only allows one racial/path ability to be chosen at the moment (I think, or maybe 2 between both pools, they're working on figuring out this number) so it's completely separate from having to choose a class ability. So, your LAS also limits the total number of what's considered a "gimme" in WoW.

    Well, how it ends up working out is that the abilities given by the path play towards a certain play-style. If you like doing the most dps because you're dead the least that's one thing, but if you like huge burst damage, that's another. I think that Carbine is focusing on making paths balanced for PVP as opposed to Raiding, though it should end up being a somewhat easy transition, as PVP is much harder to balance than Raiding. If you give a path or a class a unique ability, then they will always be needed for raiding, even if less common.

    Actually you're kind of contradicting yourself there too... Min/maxers like to play the way that means they are the best possible combination, and while everyone will min/max to an extent, it depends on how important that extra .001% damage is to you. Is it worth making one boss fight next to impossible for you to stay alive, so you can just squeeze by as top dps on another? For some this may be yes, for many it's not feasible.

    Edit: TLDR; The systems Carbine have designed seem to very well balance the game how they need to, in order to force players to have to make worthwhile decisions and create some variance in viable builds.
  16. Sawpaw

    Sawpaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    I fail to see how I am contradicting myself.

    The 1%er Min/Maxer will always choose the best possible combination, yes, so if that means going a path that really they would rather not have chosen then they will do that, as I said playing the way they HAVE to play.
  17. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    What I mean is that the 1% min/maxers like playing the way that results in the biggest best numbers. They will adapt their play style accordingly, and usually have a love/hate relationship with the game. Their fun comes from having the top performance for their particular role. They also spend months re-running the same content on 5 alts so that when the next tier comes out they'll have a few options in case of patch changes to the class that's currently the best.

    I think this is where it's contradictory, in that 99% of the players (or more) won't re-roll because it's not necessary, unless they have the tendency to do so already. The same players would simply race-change if one race became better than another, and spend hundreds of dollars on swapping over alts to the best races if there's a change that requires it, or re-roll if needed. But, this type of flip flopping won't be necessary as long as the other systems in place pick up the slack. So, inherent fun for the 1%-ers is centered around tight game play, as they will just opt for the fastest way to level in most cases, and roll an alt if they just want to "play around." The way a 1% plays is different from everyone else, and I don't think there's enough information about all the systems to start worrying about "forcing" a style of game play on a population that tends to force itself into a play style anyway.

    Also, it could be that every player needs a speed boost, a damage buff, a cc break, and a damage shield, which are provided in a combination of different ways depending on what path you are in combination of the racial abilities. This means that you get a freebie from your path, but then still need to "buy" your racial abilities accordingly, but explorers would have the ability to have one different type of speed boost as well as another, depending on what specifically is needed for the fight. You wouldn't have the possibility for 2x buff abilities, because you only have 1 slot to put it in.

    Edit: I mean a good example is the world first Nefarion kill in Cataclysm by Paragon. 11 druids in a 25 man raid. They can't have known there was a need for 11 druids at the last boss from the previous tier of content.

    Basically if you make it so the top .01% (this is skill of course) must be a certain class and path to optimize, you're doing pretty good, it'll never be perfect if they're different. But at what point in the player skill percentile does it become acceptable? I think Wildstar's current systems can get it to the top .1% with having an unacceptable optimization. This means that 99.9% of raiders (not players overall, just the raiders) will never see the extra performance of any path from another, based on path alone. (Like to make the path be better you have to be very skilled in the 99.9% percentile, otherwise it's a performance loss of <.75%, and the gain is minimal, <1%.) There's always a theoretical best, but it's likely no one will ever reach the theoretical best.
  18. Sawpaw

    Sawpaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    I was always talkin about the 1%ers when I said min/maxers, and those are the players that will reroll paths if they turn out to have chosen the wrong ones. Its clear to me you are very happy with the system and thats great for you, but I have my doubts about it, and until either Carbine throws some more light on how things work, or I get to actually get to play the game and see how it works first hand, then I will continue to have my doubts, and no disrespect but no matter how many wall of texts you write it will not change the way I see it. So lets leave it at that ok, I have made my point and have nothing more to add on this subject.
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  19. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    So, it's impossible to perfectly balance complex systems that are different from each other. My question to you is, what percentile of player's skill is acceptably balanced for you? I believe the complexity of Carbine's system will allow them 99.9 percentile of raiders, which I think is acceptable, IF PROPERLY MANAGED. What percentile is within the acceptable range for you?
  20. CWFWS1

    CWFWS1 Cupcake

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    Just to play devil's advocate, you're using a core class ability to attempt to demonstrate balance against something like a speculated sprint/movement increase from being an explorer. That really nullifies your argument.

    Granted, I didn't read anything after seeing that you used berserker rage as the example since I can't stand reading a wall of text, but you get the idea.

    Had you used something like Arcane Torrent (racial) it would make more sense. Although, you wouldn't really be able to use that simply because it's not off the GCD so it wouldn't be a dps increase unless (maybe) the fight is very burst phase-oriented and a rogue had blown his energy bar and could only auto-attack otherwise.

    Anyway, apples and oranges. =)

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