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Payment Model Discussion Mega-Thread

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by MiZTiiX, Jun 25, 2012.

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  1. Aranguard

    Aranguard New Cupcake

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    I do see that side of the argument, and I agree to some extent (I wouldn't want armor sets being sold), but you can do both without compromising the game's integrity. Guild Wars 2 does this with transmutation stones (keeping one item's stats, while using the looks of another), town clothes, minipets, and accessory items.

    As seen in games like GW2, LoL, TF2, etc, some players will spend thousands of dollars on frivolous cosmetic items. It's also part of the reason that games like League of Legends, DotA2, and SMITE are so successful. If people are willing to spend that much on items like that, let them! Carbine Studios is a business afterall.

    I have to disagree with you here. GW1 was an early pioneer of the buy-to-play/free-to-play model. A much better example is GW2 - it's buy-to-play, but the developers have already released a large number of free, high-quality updates (for example: the halloween event, the Wintersday event, and the retro N64 game inside of GW2), and full expansions are coming soon. All this while still being extremely profitable. I don't think even WoW has had such awesome content updates/events for free.
  2. Avenged

    Avenged Cupcake-About-Town

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    What you are missing though. Is that people in P2P games pay for the level footing. If you add anything into the game for money that either helps speed the process of leveling, crafting, or give them anything cosmetic to make them stand out as a bad ass, people wont play and you lose that market of players entirely. There is really no compromising the level playing field aspect for many which is why when people bring up anything cash shop related even in a hybrid style context, if you add the kind of items that people will want to drop thousands on, you lose the potential of the largest mmo gaming market. Every P2P player friend that came with me to Gw2 has left the game. I had about 80 people on my friends list. The only person I know still playing it is my gf, who primarily plays f2p games.

    Wow launches free events for every holiday, and they offer 4-5 major content patches between every expansion. For instance MoP since its release in october has already had two entirely new islands added, as well as a 4th major raid instance. They have another full raid coming out in pat 5.4 In patch 5.3 They are changing and ramping up the entire world with events just to prepare us for 5.4. You can play through the entirety of gw1 with its three expansions in about 20-25 hours. In this expansion alone there is 29 raid bosses to kill and about 8 unique dungeons so far. For every expansion as well they launch events to help tie in the new expansions to current model as well. As someone with a Guildwars 2 account, the game has little to no playability outside of WvW, which I am already bored of. Even the new fire and brimstone thing does not appeal to me. Plus the fact that your PVP is entirely limited to a structured format is just awful. I hate not being able to kill people in the open world. It makes leveling sooo boring.
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  3. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    At risk of going too far off topic, I think GW2's updates are mostly still part of what was part of their original development. Also, they positioned holiday content as "content updates" whereas WoW simply had them in the game as extra recurring holidays, on top of the content patches.

    And I don't think there's any comparison with something like the current 5.2 WoW patch to anything GW2 has patched in so far. So even using the current "best-of-breed" buy to play model in GW2, the premier subscription based example in WoW still does it much bigger and better.

    Guild Wars 2 sold a lot of boxes, but the jury is still out on the profitability of running the game over time, and we may never really know. If GW2 is counting on box revenue, they will have to pump out more expansions, something they specifically said they are not going to do anywhere near the rate of what they did for GW1.
  4. Avenged

    Avenged Cupcake-About-Town

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    Gw1 has 3 expansions in 9 years. That is a really sad thought if they do not pump more out.
  5. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    Well, all 3 of those came out in like the first 2-3 years, they just haven't had any since. I'm actually a fan of the WoW-paced expansions (with the exception of some content pacing mis-steps like Dragon Soul). An expansion every ~2 years makes it feel more like an event, especially if there is episodic content leading up to it etc.
  6. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    Uhm. Blizzard does not charge for content patches. Regardless, charging for their expansions (TBC, WotLK, Cata, and MoP) is more than reasonable considering they are essentially entirely new games.

    I'd rather spend thousands of hours in-game to get cosmetic items. There is absolutely nothing fun or interesting about dropping money at a cash shop to get a costume.

    You would be 100% wrong. Take a look at the content patches WoW pushes (remembering that the only content updates they charge for are the expansions, which start an entirely new story and change the game so much it may as well be a new game). Also, I find it kind of sad that people consider holiday events content patches. Those things are temporary.
  7. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    Erm, what do you think you're paying your sub for? And how are they essentially new games? They build upon the core game you've been paying to improve, developed by the same teams, so they haven't had to spend an extraordinary amount on it (relative to a whole new MMO that is). As for expansion launch content it's normally quite limited, you get a map that isn't as big as the original Azeroth and then a fine seasoning of 5-8 dungeons with their high difficulty modes and new entry level raids. Also let's not get too freaked out over the raids, WoTLK launched with a tuned up Naxx as it's mainstay, Cata had a wider spread of smaller raids and TBC had a cock block of a Karazhan attunement because even though they launched with T4 and T5, SSC and TK were ridiculously bugged.

    Blizzard can crack out dungeons and raids like mad now, they all have very similar mechanics (because they've done near everything) so it's all down to the art and design teams.

    There is one reason Blizzard get away with their year-bi-yearly expansions and it's because they can. They have the loyal playerbase who've spent thousands on their game (I think my total is just over the £800 mark in the end) and in order to keep playing it, they need to buy the next expansion.
  8. Acidblood

    Acidblood Cupcake-About-Town

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    So basically you want a few fools with too much money (or an addiction to shopping) to fund the game for you just so you don't have to pay $15 a month? Dude, it's $15 a month, unless you're living like a monk most people waste that on junk food / drink that just makes them fat(er), or something else equally as useless (like cash shop items!). Hell, have one less take out meal, walk to shops / work / friends house instead of driving, offer to mow someones lawn and that's pretty much $15 right there. Also for the time I was playing WoW I probably spent 1/2 to 1/4 on games that I usually did; I just didn't need the mediocre ones to fill my entertainment time; I went from 1 game a month to about 3 games a year.
  9. Aranguard

    Aranguard New Cupcake

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    No, I never said that I was opposed to spending $20 a month on entertainment. Heck, that's probably one of the cheapest prices for any form of entertainment. My point is that there are very few successful p2p games these days - f2p or b2p is where the real money is that. There is a psychological barrier that prevents people from wanting spend $X per month on a game (especially if they've already invested time and money in a game like WoW), which is also why there are so many games that double, triple, or quadruple their profits/revenue when they go f2p:
    http://www.google.com/#hl=en&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=free to play increased revenue&oq=free to play increased revenue&gs_l=hp.3..33i29i30l3.596.596.0.1572.1.1.0.0.0.0.80.80.1.1.0...0.0...1c.1.8.psy-ab.ZTAnzjMh1Nc&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.44697112,d.b2I&fp=b583ad72d01f9304&biw=1600&bih=785
  10. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    Actually, P2P is where the *real* money is at, except most games aren't up to the task of earning it.

    A big name developer (I want to say Blizzard's Mike Morhaime) had a great quote... something to the effect of "400% of nothing is still nothing" so increasing revenue is not necessarily an indicator of success. So quadrupling revenues sounds great, but still doesn't necessarily address profitability.

    As a gamer, I want a game to succeed based on it's own merits, not because it found an alternate business model that's able to keep the lights barely on! :)
    Acidblood and DarkIrelia like this.
  11. DarkIrelia

    DarkIrelia New Cupcake

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    JarNod's feelings about F2P pretty much encases my stance of them as well. Currently playing a very limited game called Wartune that is F2P. Mainly because I'm working on my new rig and my laptop can't really handle SC2HotS. The game itself is fun enough and the player interaction is definitely the main draw for me. In their newest update they released a bunch of "power gear" that totally ruined (imo) the PvP since not having it made it really unlikely that you could compete with cashers. The top player on my server easily drops $30-$40 a day and has been doing that since the server opened. Power to him for having the coin but that means the Devs will be focused purely on that top 10% rather thinking about ways to entice more newer players in.

    Same thing with LoL. I played LoL starting at beta and left about 7 months ago after finally getting tired of the lack of decent new content. F2P with micro-transactions will definitely make a company more money in the short term if they don't know how to continually re-invest that money into new meaningful content. I've come to prefer the game structure that P2P or Buy the Box since these games seem to have longer life spans. Steady income means a better team of Devs working to create more attractions.

    Thanks for reading my spew.
  12. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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    ok, like the comments in this about payment models. and the question after he says that they want you to be able to earn anything (IF they put in MTX) that you can buy, so that it's not just something you buy and can't have if you don't buy it!
  13. Simokon

    Simokon Cupcake-About-Town

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    I am hoping for a B2P and or a P2P model as these tend to keep the worst of the riffraff away.
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  14. Bluesteel

    Bluesteel Cupcake

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    Im with you 100%
  15. Echelon

    Echelon Cupcake

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    I'm ok with a B2P model just not a fan of it after GW2 as some of their endgame dungeons are STILL bugged which is what you get in a F2P or B2P style.

    I personally want a P2P style, hell don't fix what ain't broke or if you want to adjust anything how about reducing the sub price from $15 to like what $7 or even $10 at the least. that way they still have a inflow of something coming in.
  16. SteveDiggler24

    SteveDiggler24 Cupcake-About-Town

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    To the B2P/F2P supporters, I would say this. Acceptance is the first step. It's time to accept that F2P/B2P games do not need to provide the same expansive and fulfilling experience that a P2P game does to be financially successful, and financially successful does not equal a superior gaming experience. The comparison between B2P/F2P & P2P when it comes to in-game experiences available, "replay ability", engaging content, & future improvements through updates, patches, & expansions is not a fight... It's a slaughter.

    This process starts with a simple acknowledgement: P2P games benefit from providing an engaging experience with quality, highly detailed, and rewarding content to provide game play undervalued by it's subscription cost, and incentive to continue membership. B2P/F2P games benefit from creating in-game possessions & in-game benefits to a maximized player base, thru free accessibility, to create avenues for income

    Box sales for P2P games are met in subscription revenue in 4 months (60$:15$/month), therefore game developers are compelled to provide an experience with enough variety of game experiences, expansive & challenging content, achievable goals, & rewarding end game to keep subscribers interested for at least that amount of time.

    Box sales for B2P games are the only revenue generated by the entire player base. Afterwards, development goals & game design focus more on ways to create income from the current player base, and less on offering improved quality, content, & challenging features to add value to a continue playing the game.

    In gaming today, with the world's constant stream of updates & technology advances, World of Warcraft has completely dominated the market, and maintained an extraordinary amount of subscribers through nearly 9 years of competition. This is more impressive than most B2P/F2P supporters are willing to acknowledge. The responses to this statement vary, and a majority of those that I have heard involve the same junk. Wow is an anomaly, no game will be that successful again, etc.... Rarely does the response involve the fact that Blizzard was able to provide an extremely entertaining game, and more remarkably was able to continually improve & expand game play while adding value to renewing a subscription... I'm not saying that it's easy to sustain that type of monumental success over a decade, but I will be damned before accepting, or supporting for that matter, that a game should profit on in-game items & in-game benefits over providing an immersive, exciting, and sensational game experience to keep my membership, improve the value of the service provided, and keep me entertained for the foreseeable future.

    As consumers, why do F2P/B2P fans support a system that benefits by manipulating the player base's game experience to create cash revenues through cash shops & paid access content? A membership that requires a dedicated effort towards providing new experiences to keep the subscribers renewing seems like a consumer benefit to me.
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  17. Lyas Tyrell

    Lyas Tyrell Cupcake-About-Town

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    I've said it before and I'll say it again.

    With all the features they are poised to deliver in Wildstar, going free to play or buy to play would be MASSIVE under valuing of the product they are talking about delivering. You want a premium game, pay for it.
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  18. Scrapple

    Scrapple Cupcake

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    Just my two cents but F2P with cash shops down the road it will end up being Pay 2 Win. Slap a sub on me and I'm G2G I rather feel the express accomplishment of earning that epic piece of gear rather then have Johnny Noobsuace say "Oh hey you know that piece of gear you busted you're butt to get well I got mine in ten seconds". So I don't even play F2P MMO's games for that reason.
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  19. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

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    I find the opinion that a subscription based business model automatically equals a superior product or experience completely divorced from reality. Why don't people continue playing those games then? If launching with a subscription based business model is intrinsic to being able to fulfill promises of future content delivery, why have so many studios failed to keep those promises? How is it that games that do not mandate subscriptions like Planetside 2 and Guild Wars 2 manage to provide updates at a pace faster than the subscription based games y'all are no longer playing?
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  20. SteveDiggler24

    SteveDiggler24 Cupcake-About-Town

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    You missed the point entirely Moneda.. P2P games MUST provide a superior product AND experience, engaging the player base in expansive and rewarding content throughout leveling, up to and including the end game experience which also offers challenging opportunities. You see, if they didn't, a player base made entirely of subscribers would dwindle quickly. The development & game design goal with P2P is to provide a leveling experience that takes a while, with dozens of zones to explore & dungeons/raids to clear, crafting to help create a player economy, and replay ability so that going through this process with different characters to keep subscribers satisfied, and renewing their membership.

    And, like I also said, don't bother comparing the updates and content patches between that of Guild Wars/Planetside 2 and that of a successful P2P game. Like I've said already, P2P games NEED to provide content and game play that's valuable at a monthly membership rate. There's more expectations involved, and while that DOESN'T mean a higher frequency of content patches, it does mean those content patches are superior in detail & design.
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